Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Well there isn't really much of a point in having a discussion if the series if going to turn things on its head due to bad writing.

All the theories and common sense in the world won't matter in a series that's poorly written and contradictory.

[TheMikado]

^ I agree I just find it funny that each person is coming to terms with that individually and at what point in the process it is occurring. For some it was back in RoF, some it was Piccolo, others it was Vegeta SSB vs Hit and base Goku vs Hit. Now is another turning point. It's funny because I here some people on other forums started bailing way back at the Rageta 10% comment. It's sad because some of those people have really enjoyed different aspects of he franchise and (speaking for myself) it kind of hurts when our knowledge and dedication of the series isn't respected we you throw previously established lore out the window and don't replace it with a viable equivalent.

[LightBing]

Well there isn't really much of a point in having a discussion if the series if going to turn things on its head due to bad writing.

All the theories and common sense in the world won't matter in a series that's poorly written and contradictory.

Agreed. I love power discussions, so I'll limit myself to the manga. It has no holes. I mean it lacks a complete RoF arc. So I'll probably have to follow the anime in that regard. It's very likely that the promotional RoF manga was some deviations that weren't thought of, since they didn't know Super was gonna happen.

Anybody up for it?

Manga discussion:
Just re-read the first 5 chapters:

• There's no 10% line.
• Gotenks goes SSJ3 to fight Beerus.
• The "even if I fused with Vegeta we would lose" line is absent.
• Piccolo knows about God Ki.
• Goku says SSJG power is something he could never imagine, implying SSJG is stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.
• Shenlong called SSJG temporary and Goku is never mentioned to have retained any power of the form. He just goes from SSJG to base from one panel to the other.
• This is what was said about the Freeza fight: "The narrator explains that a little while before these events, Freeza had returned to terrorize Earth. However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, the two Saiyans received training under Whis and managed to evolve into “Super Saiyan Blue”, a form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. With this, they were able to defeat Freeza!"(From Kanzenshuu).
  
  Very much implying that Goku and Vegeta are only at God level with SSJB.

So, without the 10% line and Goku's fusion line, there's no need to boost Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta into Vegetto tier. I have him marginally stronger than Mystic Gohan, I think he just need to be the strongest resistance Beerus faced from Earth, prior to SSJG.

Beerus claims Goku entertained him. He says nothing about any percentages and isn't tired at all. For all we know, 25% effort might have been enough to entertain Beerus. It's very wide open.

[ZombieVito]

I'm pretty sure the manga will do the same.

[Bullza]

With the God scale now gone is it possible that Base Goku really could be as strong as Super Saiyan God.

When Goku turns into a SSJB he says he's a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan. Well if you take away the transformation bit then wouldn't he be a Saiyan with a power of a Super Saiyan God?

With SSJB being God level and Beerus also being God level but the gap between them now apparently being immense then Whis' comparison of how they're a staff compared to a tree could simply mean that SSJG/Base Goku/Vegeta could just be at the low end of God level.

With the God scale gone some of the things that pointed towards them being SSJ3+ tier in base are now no longer the case.

[Sora Saiyan]

I guess this is a feat but I don't know how good, but did anybody notice that Goku uses KHH against Hit and then it looks like flies through it to where Hit is while the KHH is still being used?

Edit: is that what happens actually? The camera moves so fast I can't tell if that's what he's doing or if he's still and the camera makes it look like he's moving with a fast zoom in.
Edit 2: looking at it in slow mo he definitely does fly through it. Well that's different.

[ZombieVito]

With the God scale now gone is it possible that Base Goku really could be as strong as Super Saiyan God.

When Goku turns into a SSJB he says he's a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan. Well if you take away the transformation bit then wouldn't he be a Saiyan with a power of a Super Saiyan God?

With SSJB being God level and Beerus also being God level but the gap between them now apparently being immense then Whis' comparison of how they're a staff compared to a tree could simply mean that SSJG/Base Goku/Vegeta could just be at the low end of God level.

With the God scale gone some of the things that pointed towards them being SSJ3+ tier in base are now no longer the case.

I still feel Goku and Vegeta are not SSJ3 tier in base. Until it gets overwritten EoZ should still be considered.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

These are my numbers in the 6-10-15 scale for the god-level fighters in Super.

• Going only by Toriyama's continuity (movies & their promotional material):
  Spoiler:

  Spoiler:

  Super Saiyan God Son Goku - 6

  • Regular form - 5.9
    • Super Saiyan - 6*

  Hakaishin Beerus - 10
  Whis - 15
  
  *Goku became stronger through his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

  Spoiler:

  Son Goku- 6*

  • Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

  Vegeta- 6

  • Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

  Freeza - 4.5

  • Golden Freeza - 7.8

  *Goku is stronger than he was after his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

  About Super Saiyan God: After Goku absorbed God's power, his base became slightly weaker than God, and his SS gave him a slight boost that made him as strong as God. Through training, he surpassed the level of God in his regular form, and he managed to become a Super Saiyan Blue. Vegeta went through the same process.
• Going only by Toyotaro's continuity (Super manga, up to chapter 10):
  Spoiler:

  (Since Toriyama is actually involved with the manga, while the anime is merely supervised by him & other people adapt his story draft, it's possible that the manga's Champa arc may turn out to be a continuation of the movies, but we'll have to wait for a connection.)

  Spoiler:

  Super Saiyan God Son Goku - 6
  Hakaishin Beerus - 10
  Whis - 15

  Spoiler:

  Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku - 7.5
  Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta - 7.5
  Hit - ?
  Hakaishin Champa - 9.8
  Vados - 15.6

  About Super Saiyan God: There is no indication that Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, so his base & SS forms in Champa arc are in normal levels.
• Going only by Toei's continuity (Super anime, up to episode 39):
  Spoiler:

  Spoiler:

  Super Saiyan God Son Goku - 6

  • Regular form - 0.12
    • Super Saiyan - 6*

  Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta - 0.8
  Hakaishin Beerus - 10
  Whis - 15
  
  *Goku became stronger through his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

  Spoiler:

  Son Goku - 0.12*

  • Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

  Vegeta - 0.12

  • Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

  Freeza - 0.11

  • Golden Freeza - 7.8

  *Goku is stronger than he was after his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

  Spoiler:

  Son Goku - 0.13

  • Super Saiyan - 6.5
    Super Saiyan Blue - 8.13
    • Kaio-ken - 16.26
      Kaio-ken x10 - 81.3

  Vegeta - 0.13

  • Super Saiyan - 6.5
    Super Saiyan Blue - 8.13

  Piccolo - 1.2
  Ultimate Son Gohan - 1.3
  
  Botamo - 0.05
  Frost - 0.07

  • Assault Form - 0.14
    Final Form - 3.3

  Magetta - 0.09

  • Powered-up - 6.6

  Cabba - 0.1

  • Super Saiyan - 5

  Hit - 7
  
  Hakaishin Champa - 9.8
  Vados - 15.6

  About Super Saiyan God: After Goku absorbed the power of God & returned to his regular SS form, his power didn't decrease at all and became his normal power, making his regular form x50 weaker compared to his SS form. Through training, he managed to become a Super Saiyan Blue. Vegeta, on the other hand, reached that level on his own through training (we got a glimpse of his hidden powers when he got angry against Beerus), and managed to become a Super Saiyan Blue.
  
  About Kaio-ken: Hit could tell which levels of Kaio-ken Goku was using by sensing his power, meaning there is no doubt that Kaio-ken is multplying SSB Goku's battle power. Beerus can't be many times stronger than SSG/B Goku & Vegeta, or he wouldn't care about them IMO. Not only that, but his reaction to KKx2 seemed to indicate that Goku may be stronger than him. But that doesn't mean that Goku can beat him in a fight, since Kaio-ken is a temporary boost with big drawbacks, and Beerus has learned, but hasn't perfected, the ability to have his body move on its own, making him capable of avoiding attacks more powerful than him, while Whis has perfected this ability, and we have no idea what other abilities Beerus & Whis may have. So, just because Goku can temporary become stronger than them doesn't mean he has truly surpassed them, and he still hasn't according to Toriyama.

[emperior]

I think raw power-wise, Goku has surpassed everyone using Kaioken x10 combined with Super Saiyan Blue. With KKx2, he just barely surpassed Beerus.

[Khin]

Judging from the NEP and ending kamehameha clash,Hit was keeping up with SSGKK Goku,and i don't think he's stronger than Champa/Beerus let alone Whis/Vados.

[TheMikado]

Well there isn't really much of a point in having a discussion if the series if going to turn things on its head due to bad writing.

All the theories and common sense in the world won't matter in a series that's poorly written and contradictory.

Agreed. I love power discussions, so I'll limit myself to the manga. It has no holes. I mean it lacks a complete RoF arc. So I'll probably have to follow the anime in that regard. It's very likely that the promotional RoF manga was some deviations that weren't thought of, since they didn't know Super was gonna happen.

Anybody up for it?

Manga discussion:
Just re-read the first 5 chapters:

• There's no 10% line.
• Gotenks goes SSJ3 to fight Beerus.
• The "even if I fused with Vegeta we would lose" line is absent.
• Piccolo knows about God Ki.
• Goku says SSJG power is something he could never imagine, implying SSJG is stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.
• Shenlong called SSJG temporary and Goku is never mentioned to have retained any power of the form. He just goes from SSJG to base from one panel to the other.
• This is what was said about the Freeza fight: "The narrator explains that a little while before these events, Freeza had returned to terrorize Earth. However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, the two Saiyans received training under Whis and managed to evolve into “Super Saiyan Blue”, a form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. With this, they were able to defeat Freeza!"(From Kanzenshuu).
  
  Very much implying that Goku and Vegeta are only at God level with SSJB.

So, without the 10% line and Goku's fusion line, there's no need to boost Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta into Vegetto tier. I have him marginally stronger than Mystic Gohan, I think he just need to be the strongest resistance Beerus faced from Earth, prior to SSJG.

Beerus claims Goku entertained him. He says nothing about any percentages and isn't tired at all. For all we know, 25% effort might have been enough to entertain Beerus. It's very wide open.

This is probably the best explanation I've seen yet. It looks like at the very least the manga is fairly consistent with power levels. If the anime wasn't ahead I would probably forego that for a while. Either I hate that this further splits the base. Have people that watched the movies or read the manga and this SSB Kaioken is going to be all over their forums or websites they visit and and casual fans will be confused out of their minds.

[singsing]

But doesn't the anime take precedence over the manga in this case? I feel like it makes even less sense to try to make sense of something that Toriyama didn't even write, ala GT.

[TheMikado]

But doesn't the anime take precedence over the manga in this case? I feel like it makes even less sense to try to make sense of something that Toriyama didn't even write, ala GT.

Toriyama didn't write the anime and has more intimate involvement with the manga to our knowledge. At least we know he personal reviews each issue of the manga which would also be why we have less contradictory statements. And let's face it the anime is written mess.

[Marlowe89]

With the God scale now gone is it possible that Base Goku really could be as strong as Super Saiyan God.

Unless you want to assume base Cabba and Piccolo are god tier, no.

[TheMikado]

With the God scale now gone is it possible that Base Goku really could be as strong as Super Saiyan God.

Unless you want to assume base Cabba and Piccolo are god tier, no.

This assumption would actual put Piccolo and SSJ Cabba pretty close to Beerus if not surpassing it. I guess it would depend on if you still assume the 50 multiplier is accurate.

[Chiki]

These are my numbers in the 6-10-15 scale for the god-level fighters in Super.

• Going only by Toriyama's continuity (movies & their promotional material):
  Spoiler:

  Spoiler:

  Super Saiyan God Son Goku - 6

  • Regular form - 5.9
    • Super Saiyan - 6*

  Hakaishin Beerus - 10
  Whis - 15
  
  *Goku became stronger through his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

  Spoiler:

  Son Goku- 6*

  • Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

  Vegeta- 6

  • Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

  Freeza - 4.5

  • Golden Freeza - 7.8

  *Goku is stronger than he was after his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

  About Super Saiyan God: After Goku absorbed God's power, his base became slightly weaker than God, and his SS gave him a slight boost that made him as strong as God. Through training, he surpassed the level of God in his regular form, and he managed to become a Super Saiyan Blue. Vegeta went through the same process.
• Going only by Toyotaro's continuity (Super manga, up to chapter 10):
  Spoiler:

  (Since Toriyama is actually involved with the manga, while the anime is merely supervised by him & other people adapt his story draft, it's possible that the manga's Champa arc may turn out to be a continuation of the movies, but we'll have to wait for a connection.)

  Spoiler:

  Super Saiyan God Son Goku - 6
  Hakaishin Beerus - 10
  Whis - 15

  Spoiler:

  Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku - 7.5
  Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta - 7.5
  Hit - ?
  Hakaishin Champa - 9.8
  Vados - 15.6

  About Super Saiyan God: There is no indication that Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, so his base & SS forms in Champa arc are in normal levels.
• Going only by Toei's continuity (Super anime, up to episode 39):
  Spoiler:

  Spoiler:

  Super Saiyan God Son Goku - 6

  • Regular form - 0.12
    • Super Saiyan - 6*

  Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta - 0.8
  Hakaishin Beerus - 10
  Whis - 15
  
  *Goku became stronger through his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

  Spoiler:

  Son Goku - 0.12*

  • Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

  Vegeta - 0.12

  • Super Saiyan Blue - 7.5

  Freeza - 0.11

  • Golden Freeza - 7.8

  *Goku is stronger than he was after his battle with Beerus, but the increase isn't noticeable in this scale.

  Spoiler:

  Son Goku - 0.13

  • Super Saiyan - 6.5
    Super Saiyan Blue - 8.13
    • Kaio-ken - 16.26
      Kaio-ken x10 - 81.3

  Vegeta - 0.13

  • Super Saiyan - 6.5
    Super Saiyan Blue - 8.13

  Piccolo - 1.2
  Ultimate Son Gohan - 1.3
  
  Botamo - 0.05
  Frost - 0.07

  • Assault Form - 0.14
    Final Form - 3.3

  Magetta - 0.09

  • Powered-up - 6.6

  Cabba - 0.1

  • Super Saiyan - 5

  Hit - 7
  
  Hakaishin Champa - 9.8
  Vados - 15.6

  About Super Saiyan God: After Goku absorbed the power of God & returned to his regular SS form, his power didn't decrease at all and became his normal power, making his regular form x50 weaker compared to his SS form. Through training, he managed to become a Super Saiyan Blue. Vegeta, on the other hand, reached that level on his own through training (we got a glimpse of his hidden powers when he got angry against Beerus), and managed to become a Super Saiyan Blue.
  
  About Kaio-ken: Hit could tell which levels of Kaio-ken Goku was using by sensing his power, meaning there is no doubt that Kaio-ken is multplying SSB Goku's battle power. Beerus can't be many times stronger than SSG/B Goku & Vegeta, or he wouldn't care about them IMO. Not only that, but his reaction to KKx2 seemed to indicate that Goku may be stronger than him. But that doesn't mean that Goku can beat him in a fight, since Kaio-ken is a temporary boost with big drawbacks, and Beerus has learned, but hasn't perfected, the ability to have his body move on its own, making him capable of avoiding attacks more powerful than him, while Whis has perfected this ability, and we have no idea what other abilities Beerus & Whis may have. So, just because Goku can temporary become stronger than them doesn't mean he has truly surpassed them, and he still hasn't according to Toriyama.

This shows that the two base theory is the only way to go if you accept the 6-10-15 scale.

1. The argument that "oh it's too complicated for viewers!!" doesn't work anymore (it never worked to begin with but w/e) because the power levels are extremely complicated right now thanks to Kaioken x10 SSB Goku and the 10% Vegeta statement not matching up very well. This is far more complicated than the two base theory itself. Isn't that why you abandoned the two base theory to begin with?
2. You put Piccolo as a 1.2, this is impossible. If SS2 Raging Vegeta was a 0.4, SSJ3 Goku was a 0.2, then SSJ Goku would be a 0.2/8 = 0.025. Assume Piccolo was = SSJ BoG Goku during RoF, which is unlikely but w/e. Then Piccolo got a 1.2/0.025 = x48 power boost which is basically like he went SSJ or something. Not saying these numbers are accurate or exact at all, they aren't, but they should give you an idea of his power boost which is ridiculous.

[Lord Frieza]

A while back someone asked be if Goku would ever become a Super Saiyan Blue 3? I dont think he needs to now.

Super Saiyan 2 is a x2 power boost

Super Saiyan 3 is a x4 power boost

So in theory a Super Saiyan Blue 3 is x2 + x4 power boost to Super Saiyan Blue - 1 x 2 x 4 = 8

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioh-Ken is a x10 power boost to Super Saiyan Blue - 1 x 10 = 10

[dbzfan7]

So manga wise Vegeta vs Frost is pretty much the same. A bit longer, but Vegeta absolutely wrecks.

Magetta though is a different story. He's pretty much impervious to Vegeta. Vegeta hurts his hand punching him. SSJ Vegeta also doesn't seem able to lift him either, so shit how heavy is Magetta that he can't be lifted? Vegeta only won via ring out, but other than that didn't look like he had a chance without SSJB.

[TheMikado]

A while back someone asked be if Goku would ever become a Super Saiyan Blue 3? I dont think he needs to now.

Super Saiyan 2 is a x2 power boost

Super Saiyan 3 is a x4 power boost

So in theory a Super Saiyan Blue 3 is x2 + x4 power boost to Super Saiyan Blue - 1 x 2 x 4 = 8

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioh-Ken is a x10 power boost to Super Saiyan Blue - 1 x 10 = 10

If the SSB form allows him to use Kaioken why not just stack it anyway?
10x8 = 80!! While we are at it we could probably pull his tail out and get another x10 bonus.

x800 SSGSS !!!

[Khin]

Super Saiyan 3 = Burns energy so fast

Super Saiyan + God ki = Also burns energy fast,though not as much as SSj3 or Golden Freeza.

Super Saiyan + God Ki + Kaioken x10 = Burns energy so fast that Goku wasn't sure if he can sustain it.

Super Saiyan 3 + God Ki + Kaioken x10 = Goku's body would probably explode.