Two Super Saiyan 4 Questions

[TheMikado]

^ Don't even consider these things problems.. I'm just pointing out that out if you want to Nitpick GT there is plenty in Super which you could doubly so do.
These things don't matter to me, its the drive by "Well GT is worse" stuff without any evidence I'm railing against. My only issue right now is how flaky the power levels are to where we don't know whether we should be be concerned in any given fight. But let't not make this thread about Super vs GT.

[Lord Frieza]

I messed up my long long long post of Super plotholes. Ill try again later but Supers plotholes are 10x worse.
I will just say Universe level punches are not mysteriously absent even after surpass SSG several times over with SSB X Kaioken
We should have been experiencing them since RoF
Super is 6 months after Buu but they get many of the character ages wrong?!>?
10% Rageta yet we still dont know if SSB X 10 is stronger than Beerus
Kais knowing exactly how Kaioken works with SSJ. They wouldnt have even seen Goku use Kaioken unless they watched the Goku/Vegeta fight in which case they would also know about Oozaru form. Your argument is that they didnt know about saiyans so even if aware of kaioken how could be possible know specifics about an incredibly rare form of a race he doesnt know anything about as you say. In fact this is worse than GT since Old Kai didnt know exactly what would happen or how it worked, just that Saiyans needed tails for their full power. If you want to use the Old Kai arguement it would go 10x over for Super.

If you want the user the Ginyu argument which again is x10 worse because he shouldnt have even been wished back due to the wish itself not transporting Frieza's men. Even if you want to use the fact that he was a frog he should be dead by now, it's been like 15 years and frogs dont live that long. Even if you want to ignore that the whole reason he couldtn use his change ability all these years is because he couldnt speak. Your Ginyu requires several layers of contridiction just to work in Super.

Like I said theres a ton more and my reponse post looked like a novel so I respond with the full list later but seriously do you really want to do this in here? It will completely derail the topic.

EDIT: Spelling errors corrected (I hope)

1) The universe Punchs are a result of poor ki control on Goku's part and Beerus not careing, so after training with Whis to control his god power "universe destroying punches" should not happen ever again.
2) Goku's age as been wrongs since the start of the 21st Budokai saga due to an error and Gohan was original 3 then edited to 5 so getting ages wrongs is something the series has done before.
3)Theres a very big difference between a character somehow knowing all about a well established technique within the series and that is used by the man character to somehow knowing that a saiyan needs his tail to achieve his full power. Especial when that statement contradicts Vegeta's words and actions in the Frieza Saga which implied that he dosent need his tail and is not loosing anything by not having it aside from his Oozaru transformation. So are you saying that Vegeta was wrong and knows nothing about his own biology?

Can you give one single logical and simple explosion a to how or why he would think a saiyan needs their tail to achieve full power and allowing Goku to transform into a Golden Oozaru would not be the worst idea ever because in DB the only untrained saiyan to shown any rationality post transformation was Gohan and that was suggested to be because he was half human. Even Bardock who had been using Oozaru all his life never came close to mastering it. Yet Goku should be fine after a few hours training. Also if that is the case who did he learn the method controlling the Oozaru from? As you said thats a trait unique to one alien race, all but two of whom are dead, one dosent know and the other one has almost never shared training secrets until Super.

And while we on the subject while SS4 and SSG are pulled right out of nowhere and both require a very specific set of circumstances to be achieved, SSG like normal SS was given all its background and build up in its saga. SS4 has no build, no background and logical explanation. This was fine with SS3 it was building on the foundations set by SSG2, 3 and SS2 but as I've stated both SS4 and SSG require a very specific set of circumstances to be achieved. In Super we learn what the form is, why we have never heard of it and how to get it. SS4 on the other hand is very clumsily handled by comparison. It also has nonsense magic powers that make no sense and are never explained such as some how regenerating and altering Goku's cloths and somehow undoing the power of the black star dragon temperately. Since SS4 is supposedly a natural transformation with only normal ki at its disposal and since Goku has no magical abilities what so ever how dose he achieve these little sins against logic. If it was super saiyan god doing this I'd be more forgiving as its power is by definition supernatural but SS4 dosent have that anything like that to excuse its ass pull abilities.

And befor you mention SSB let me remind you that that has be explained very simpley as well, Goku absorbed SSG's power and learned to tap in to it on his own thanks to Whis. We may learn how Vegeta did it in the future so until that point dose or dosent come anything we say is speculation.

Oh Ginyu requires contradictions dose he. Well the fact he's on earth is part of the anime so either way that dosent matter and is a flaw with the DB anime not Super. Alien frog, unknow biology and unknow age so you cannot say what its lifespan is or isent. The only plot hole I can see and agree with is why didn't use his power soon.

[Lord Frieza]

^ Don't even consider these things problems.. I'm just pointing out that out if you want to Nitpick GT there is plenty in Super which you could doubly so do.
These things don't matter to me, its the drive by "Well GT is worse" stuff without any evidence I'm railing against. My only issue right now is how flaky the power levels are to where we don't know whether we should be be concerned in any given fight. But let't not make this thread about Super vs GT.

You seem to be under the impression that we hate GT and think its the worst. While I cant speak for others I do not think this, I do enjoy GT but like Dragon Ball and Super it has its flaws. I except and enjoy them all for what they are.

As I have stated Baby is one of my faviort villains and I like SS4.

However I cannot expect me to not challenge and debate with you or others on a subject if I have different view and knowledge on the subject. If you can convince me I'm wrong then I will admit it as I come he with an open mind but you have failed to do so on this matter as you have not provided a suitable counter argument to prove GT is genuinely better then Super or provided better evidence to counter my statement and information that super saiyan god is the more powerful transformation.

[TheMikado]

I really didn't want to make this a GT vs Super thread but a response like that does at least deserve a response.

1) The universe Punchs are a result of poor ki control on Goku's part and Beerus not careing, so after training with Whis to control his god power "universe destroying punches" should not happen ever again.

Frieza is fighting at a level yet that of SSG and honestly shouldn't care whether the Earth is destroyed and he really hadn't trained at the level for very long once achieved. You really can't dismiss universe punches with extra training especially when Goku used the incomplete x10 Kaioken technique while SSB along with a KHH. He's literally at hundreds x SSG level punches with this but I guess Hit is also perfectly able to harmonize so that whatever space time continuum they are in doesn't get destroyed. Seriously, there's no way you can justify that when you have increasely more power and reckless enemies following that.

2)Not worried about it. Minus also seems to have retconned so it's all up for debate. GT's are consistent with the series that preceded it though, instead of Super just saying F-it and making it worse.

3)Theres a very big difference between a character somehow knowing all about a well established technique within the series and that is used by the man character to somehow knowing that a saiyan needs his tail to achieve his full power. Especial when that statement contradicts Vegeta's words and actions in the Frieza Saga which implied that he dosent need his tail and is not loosing anything by not having it aside from his Oozaru transformation. So are you saying that Vegeta was wrong and knows nothing about his own biology?

What? Vegeta was absolutely right. The tail has no effect on their power levels besides the Oozaru form. Old kai already admitted he didn't know about saiyans to that degree which was the argument about GT, however by that time it was like 10 years since he had been out of the sword and could have and work have researched it a bit. The fact that he knows something with power happens through the Saiyans tells (WHICH it does via the Oozaru form granting a x10 multiplier ) but he doesn't know exactly what it is or how it works is FAR more realistic (in a fictional universe). Then him somehow having a full understanding of how Kaioken (With the ONLY known active user in the universe currently being Goku) and the SSJ form physiological strain in combination with this EXTREMELY rare technique and Very Rare saiyan form of a near extinct race that he wasn't even aware of less than a year ago as he was trapped in the sword but somehow they all know that he had this ability despite him not using it for years long before any of them knew of Goku??? Come on man, seriously. You can't be serious. These guys shouldn't even know that Goku used it in the past let alone the REASONS WHY he hadn't used it on physiological level. An you want to complain that Old kai heard a rumor somewhere that saiyans need tail for power and has no idea why or how it works?? Come on seriously. If that's a plothole then Super's is a 5 mile wide sinkhole.

Can you give one single logical and simple explosion a to how or why he would think a saiyan needs their tail to achieve full power and allowing Goku to transform into a Golden Oozaru would not be the worst idea ever because in DB the only untrained saiyan to shown any rationality post transformation was Gohan and that was suggested to be because he was half human. Even Bardock who had been using Oozaru all his life never came close to mastering it. Yet Goku should be fine after a few hours training. Also if that is the case who did he learn the method controlling the Oozaru from? As you said thats a trait unique to one alien race, all but two of whom are dead, one dosent know and the other one has almost never shared training secrets until Super.

Your problem is that Goku managed to EVENTUALLY get control of himself with the help of Pan? Its not like he went Oozaru and was suddenly in control of himself the whole time. I mean I guess we can never have children go SSJ because you need to be full of hate, oh wait. Come this is about as nitpicky as you can get. As far as it being a bad idea, they had No idea what would happen when he got his tail back and they didn't pretend to either. All he heard or understood is that Saiyan tails grants them powers he doesnt claim to be an expert on Saiyan forms and physicology like the kaios in Super.

And while we on the subject while SS4 and SSG are pulled right out of nowhere and both require a very specific set of circumstances to be achieved, SSG like normal SS was given all its background and build up in its saga. SS4 has no build, no background and logical explanation. This was fine with SS3 it was building on the foundations set by SSG2, 3 and SS2 but as I've stated both SS4 and SSG require a very specific set of circumstances to be achieved. In Super we learn what the form is, why we have never heard of it and how to get it. SS4 on the other hand is very clumsily handled by comparison. It also has nones magic powers that make no sense and are never explained such as some how regenerating and altering Goku's cloths and somehow undoing the power of the black star dragon temperately. Since SS4 is supposedly a natural transformation with only normal ki at its disposal and since Goku has no magical abilities what so ever how dose he achieve these little sins against logic. If it was super saiyan god doing this I'd be more forgiving as its power is by definition supernatural but SS4 dosent have that anything like that to excuse its ass pull abilities.

This one takes the cake. SSJ4 is a COMBINATION of TWO EXISTING TRANSFORMATIONS.
By contrast SSG is apparently even in Dragonball Minus but NO ONE has mentioned it and even Vegeta doesn't know about it. If that's not an @SS pull I don't know what is. You can even make the case of a Golden Oozaru way back in the Frieza saga if you want to via flashback. There is tons of history and lore that would ask the question of what would happen if a SSJ went Oozaru and even then there is what can be considered foreshadowing YEARS before the form actually appeared. You can complain about the clothes all day long but the Oozaru form appears to have some regenerative qualities in various showings so a healing factor would not be out of the question. The things you are complaining about trivial with the exception of the clothing. But again that's such a minor detail its not worth the discussion. SSG was a real @SS pull it has no premise and no basis other than stating all the exposition that it was a thing everyone forgot yet it appears in Dragonball minus.

And befor you mention SSB let me remind you that that has be explained very simpley as well, Goku absorbed SSG's power and learned to tap in to it on his own thanks to Whis. We may learn how Vegeta did it in the future so until that point dose or dosent come anything we say is speculation.

I'm sorry actually this is the biggest @$$ pull of them all. So number 1 does Goku have God Ki inside him or not in BASE. If no why is the power of SSG supposedly made his own, if yes how is it able to be detected by mortals. More importantly if his Base has God Ki and he goes SSJ, does he go SSJ Yellow or Blue?? If his base has God Ki and he goes SSJ does the x50 multiplier still apply? If his base has God ki and he goes SSB what's the multiplier? Since he can turn God Ki on and off does he have two bases or One with God Ki?? Because if he only has one base with God ki why is he able to be sensed? If his base doesnt have God ki then why would he infuse his base with God ki to be stronger then SSJ and then go SSB? If you can make the argument that it is a combination of two existing forms then you can make that SAME argument for SSJ4 longer before SSB. Also how can Hit sense Goku power up his X10 kaioken? To that matter didnt Goku just state the SSB drains his stamina really but the Kaios literally say the SSJ stamina drain is why he cant use Kaioken as a SSJ. So which is it? According to the Kaios it seems SSJ drains it more then SSB and Goku seems to say the opposite but I guess once again they are experts on Saiyans own bodies more than themselves.

Oh Ginyu requires contradictions dose he. Well the fact he's on earth is part of the anime so either way that dosent matter and is a flaw with the DB anime not Super. Alien frog, unknow biology and unknow age so you cannot say what its lifespan is or isent. The only plot hole I can see and agree with is why didn't use his power soon.

So you have no problem with Super basing plot on Anime filler? Thats fine but I hope your not the type who touts non canon because that would be pretty non canon right there. The reason he didnt use the power soon is because he flat out couldnt because he couldnt speak otherwise he would have changed way sooner on Namek. That was the WHOLE reason he was stuck as a frog. They literally invalidated the victory over Ginyu because he could have literally body changed immediately again maybe into Vegeta or even Frieza if he wanted. Shoot, he could have taken over Cell, Buu, any of the Z warriors. It wouldnt be hard for him to find where they live and get them in their sleep. Especially Goku. But somehow he makes it out to body change when Freeza's around. Come on there is once again no way to justify this stuff.

Like I said I dont even care but I am certainly not that nitpicky. IF you want to nitpick of GT, Super has about a hundred times more things you can nitpick on. I drives me crazy that people will use the smallest arguments to discredit GT because they dont like it while ignoring the gapping flaws is Super. Both have flaws as do all series. DBZ probably has the worst inconsistencies no one says anything. If you really want to hunt out flaws I suggest you start there. They all have them but most unbiased opinions would state that so far Super's have been worse.
Again I dont even care about this nitpicky stuff, just drives me crazy when people point them out to discredit GT while simultaneously ignoring Supers which actually appear to be way worse.

[TheMikado]

^ Don't even consider these things problems.. I'm just pointing out that out if you want to Nitpick GT there is plenty in Super which you could doubly so do.
These things don't matter to me, its the drive by "Well GT is worse" stuff without any evidence I'm railing against. My only issue right now is how flaky the power levels are to where we don't know whether we should be be concerned in any given fight. But let't not make this thread about Super vs GT.

You seem to be under the impression that we hate GT and think its the worst. While I cant speak for others I do not think this, I do enjoy GT but like Dragon Ball and Super it has its flaws. I except and enjoy them all for what they are.

As I have stated Baby is one of my faviort villains and I like SS4.

However I cannot expect me to not challenge and debate with you or others on a subject if I have different view and knowledge on the subject. If you can convince me I'm wrong then I will admit it as I come he with an open mind but you have failed to do so on this matter as you have not provided a suitable counter argument to prove GT is genuinely better then Super or provided better evidence to counter my statement and information that super saiyan god is the more powerful transformation.

I never said anything about GT being better Super just that Super has more plotholes and powel level discrepancies that affect the narrative negatively. I actually thing Super is fine from a technical standpoint and would like it if it didnt crap all over established lore. This whole argument started when someone once again drive by $h*t posted on GT for no reason and no evidence and I responded in kind.

I actually think the SSG transformation could be powerful than SSJ4 if the bases are equal be since we now have no idea of how much power Beerus used in Super we have no idea if its that much more powerful than SSJ3 Goku or not. There's no context in Super. I don't see how I failed to come in with an open mind. There is just no evidence of how power SSG transformation is in Super vs SSJ3 Goku so we can't tell if its a 10,20, or 1000% increase.

[Lord Frieza]

Edit read your latest post and saw your on the same page to a degree anyway.

So lets just chuck all this in the river an move on.

Edit in answer to you last question. their are no numbers or multipliers involved. also take in mind that to me until proven otherwise they are parallel futures to Dragon ball

According to the closed thing we have official information Buu Saga Vegetto's power is on pare with SS4.

At the start of the Super era Goku is weaker then them both by a big margin, starting GT Goku is stronger due to age and training. However if the power these two individuals (Vegetto and SS4 Goku) power would not be enough to tackle Beerus alone, Super Saiyan God regardless of what ever its multiplier is must make Super's weaker Goku stronger then GT Goku as a Super Saiyan 4. That implies a increasable power boost surpassing any seen before that point, its almost like Frieza's three months of training rolled into a single moment (although not quite that extreme).

That the simplest way I can put it.

Also sorry if I unintentionally upset you or appeared harsh or unreasoning.

[TheMikado]

I actually think SSG is the more powerful transformation but I I was actually referencing its after effects on power rather than the transformation itself as I feel like that's the part that matters and can be tapped into anytime like SSJ4.

Like if we assume Goku keep its power or some of it it would appear to bring him around SSJ3 levels.
Which would be less than what Goku would have gained by going SSJ4.
But The transformation itself is far beyond anything anyone has experienced before in terms of power level boosts. It's literally like at least a 20000 multiplier based on SSJ approximate levels battling Beerus and moving backwards. To SSJ3 levels and then taking that multiplier as well.

I'm not offended at all and I came off harshly. As I said i would like super expect for some key elements like a form that grants a 2,000,000% power boost.

[Lord Frieza]

I actually think SSG is the more powerful transformation but I I was actually referencing its after effects on power rather than the transformation itself as I feel like that's the part that matters and can be tapped into anytime like SSJ4.

Like if we assume Goku keep its power or some of it it would appear to bring him around SSJ3 levels.
Which would be less than what Goku would have gained by going SSJ4.
But The transformation itself is far beyond anything anyone has experienced before in terms of power level boosts. It's literally like at least a 20000 multiplier based on SSJ approximate levels battling Beerus and moving backwards. To SSJ3 levels and then taking that multiplier as well.

I'm not offended at all and I came off harshly. As I said i would like super expect for some key elements like a form that grants a 2,000,000% power boost.

I understand now.

Well in that I agree with you if Goku is only as strong as his SS3 form in base then that isent so impressive also anyone else with no Goku levels of luck would loose all the god power and be royally screwed. But then thats not the end of the road for that power, which brings us to Super Saiyan Blue however thats really not the point of the talk we had.

I'll try to answer some of the questions you asked above. While this inset the best place I would like to try to answer them as they are very interesting to explore. Also this has no bearing on the SSG/SS4 talk we've had as I think we've come to a good mutual agreement on it.

Ok pure speculation time. It is by belief that Goku dosent have access to his god power after loosing SSG. The power sleeps within him increasing his natural abilities many fold but he could not summon it on his own without Whis's training or at least not as quickly.

Why SSB is different to SSG I cannot say but is clear in Super Goku only becomes a god after transforming.

Ok we know full well the limitations of Kaioh-ken, its basicly forcing your body to be stronger then it naturally is. The difference between it and SS2 and 3 is that they are extensions of SS, a natural transformation while Kaioh-ken is unnatural and requires more concentration and control of the users ki to use. You can't just get angry and use is, you actually have to constantly focus on using it. This is why it cannot be used with SS forms. In all of them save MSS, the saiyan looses some control of his ki, especial when we get to the likes of SS3.

The other problem is one of duration. Even using Kaioh-ken for a short period of time takes a lot out of the user even after they build up a tolerance for it. In fact I would go so far as to say that its worse then SS3 in this re-guard as Goku can maintain SS3 for some time while even at its best Kaioh-ken was used in bursts but never for longer. This is all because of the limitations of a natural physical body. This is were SSB comes in.

As Goku himself said while dead and in Other World he was able to maintain SS3 for longer, this is because he was no-longer suffered from the limitations of a physical body although it was still taxing for him. This would also explain why he could pull of a super kaioh-ken against Pikkon. Thanks to the Mastered Super Saiyan form properties and the fact his body has less limits he was able to pull of that attack for a quick burst, if he had tried that against Cell it would very likely have killed him.

It is my belief that when Goku transforms into a SSB its not just that he can use God Ki. I think that it alters his entire being to a state similer to the kais and Beerus himself. He in essence becomes a supernatural entity without the limitations he normally would possess. With these limitations removed combined with the Whis's training, which in effect is an OCD level of Ki control crossed with ability to move, react and control ones power instantaneously yet without thinking, should enable Goku to pull off this Super Saiyan Blue Kaioh-ken.

[MajinBrolyYamcha]

1) SSG < SSGSSJ < SSG4 < SSj4 < SSGSSJ4
2) SSGSSJ4 / SSB4 = Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 4 / Super Saiyan Blue Four, would destroy in the Universal God Tournament; if Goku or Vegeta used this form.

[Draconic]

I think the first question is an obvious yes, since having a power up on top of a power up will result in a huge boost.

With the second one, even though you only asked about SSJ4 I will give my opinion on all GT power houses.

Whis = Vados > SSJ4 Gogeta >= Beerus > Champa > Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 > Omega Shenron > Hit > Super Saiyan Blue U6 > Golden Freeza > Super Saiyan Blue RoF > Super Saiyan 4 Goku Beyond Limits > Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan 4