Super Saiyan junk

[James R. Cadwell]

But what's the scientific formula that shows at what difference in power a ki blast's affect goes from "oof" to "fucking hell that hurt!"?

You can punch through a plate of an unknown metal easily. You punch a second plate of metal with absolutely no effect other than a stinging hand. It's reasonable to conclude from this that the second plate of metal is probably more than twice as hard and durable as the first. It's impossible to quantify how much harder, but it's definitely more than twice as strong.

Vegeta can presumably severely injure someone of equal power (the first stage of Super Saiya-jin) with little difficulty. Vegeta can barely affect "Super" Perfect Cell (slightly less than Super Saiya-jin 2 level power) at all.

With the analogy in mind, I don't see how it's possible for anyone to conclude that Super Saiya-jin 2 has only double the physical durability of Super Saiya-jin 1. Strength is a different issue, but it's clear that Super Saiya-jin 2 is far, far more durable than the first stage.

[PsyLiam]

This is assuming that all Super Saiyan are equal, when they almost certainly aren't. Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta is going to be stronger than Super Saiyan 1 Goten, if we take them both from the same timeframe.

That's only relevent here if we assume that Super Saiyan 1 Cell Games-Gohan isn't of equal strength to Super Saiyan 1 Cell Games-Vegeta. We never see them directly fight, but Gohan seems to be at least as strong as Goku at that point, and Goku is probably stronger than Vegeta (because, well, he usually is).

I do agree that Super Saiyan 2 is more than twice as durable as Super Saiyan 1. But how much more is pretty hard to say. Certainly it's vague enough that you can't assign a number with 6 significant digits to it.

[James R. Cadwell]

This is assuming that all Super Saiyan are equal, when they almost certainly aren't. Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta is going to be stronger than Super Saiyan 1 Goten, if we take them both from the same timeframe.

That's only relevent here if we assume that Super Saiyan 1 Cell Games-Gohan isn't of equal strength to Super Saiyan 1 Cell Games-Vegeta. We never see them directly fight, but Gohan seems to be at least as strong as Goku at that point, and Goku is probably stronger than Vegeta (because, well, he usually is).

Gohan and Vegeta aren't precisely equal in power, but I doubt the difference could have been that large. If Vegeta didn't think that he had adequately bridged the gap between himself and the Son family, it seems like he would have remained in the "Room of Spirit and Time" for another year.

I do agree that Super Saiyan 2 is more than twice as durable as Super Saiyan 1. But how much more is pretty hard to say. Certainly it's vague enough that you can't assign a number with 6 significant digits to it.

That's true. I usually stay away from number speculation because the results rarely have any reliable foundation. I only used them in this topic to make a point about the difference between linear/non-linear power level scales.

[PsyLiam]

Gohan and Vegeta aren't precisely equal in power, but I doubt the difference could have been that large. If Vegeta didn't think that he had adequately bridged the gap between himself and the Son family, it seems like he would have remained in the "Room of Spirit and Time" for another year.

Hadn't Vegeta used up all his time in the Room of Time and Spirit? I thought that a person could only use it for two days/years?

I wonder why Vegeta didn't try the "staying as Super Saiyan all the time" thing? He did say that it was a brilliant strategy when he saw it, and he had a year to master it. (I also wonder if that entire first year of training was a waste. Did all the training just go towards his USSJ form, or did it also boost his normal and SSJ forms?)

[James R. Cadwell]

Gohan and Vegeta aren't precisely equal in power, but I doubt the difference could have been that large. If Vegeta didn't think that he had adequately bridged the gap between himself and the Son family, it seems like he would have remained in the "Room of Spirit and Time" for another year.

Hadn't Vegeta used up all his time in the Room of Time and Spirit? I thought that a person could only use it for two days/years?

I'm not really sure. I think that it was also said that only two people could enter the room at once, which obviously wasn't true.

Anyway, would the room kick Vegeta out if he stayed for longer than 365 days? That actually might have been a nice scene.

I wonder why Vegeta didn't try the "staying as Super Saiyan all the time" thing? He did say that it was a brilliant strategy when he saw it, and he had a year to master it.

Maybe he tried it for a few months in the "Room of Spirit and Time" and stopped for some reason before he emerged.

(I also wonder if that entire first year of training was a waste. Did all the training just go towards his USSJ form, or did it also boost his normal and SSJ forms?)

I assumed that Vegeta focused exclusively on transforming to a different level of Super Saiya-jin as opposed to simply training to make his current form more powerful. I also assumed that whatever training methods he used in the two months before he achieved "Ultra/Ultimate Super Saiya-jin" probably made him stronger even without transforming to the next level. I mean, he must have been doing push-ups or something. I doubt he just stood around screaming until he surpassed "ordinary" Super Saiya-jin.

[PsyLiam]

Hadn't Vegeta used up all his time in the Room of Time and Spirit? I thought that a person could only use it for two days/years?

I'm not really sure. I think that it was also said that only two people could enter the room at once, which obviously wasn't true.

Anyway, would the room kick Vegeta out if he stayed for longer than 365 days? That actually might have been a nice scene.

I wondered if the door would vanish, and they'd be trapped. Evidence against that though is the fact that Piccolo walks in there during the Buu saga, and he'd already had his two days.

I wonder why Vegeta didn't try the "staying as Super Saiyan all the time" thing? He did say that it was a brilliant strategy when he saw it, and he had a year to master it.

Maybe he tried it for a few months in the "Room of Spirit and Time" and stopped for some reason before he emerged.

But why would he do that, if it was such a "brilliant strategy"?

I suspect that he might not have been able to do it. Turning Super Saiyan does seem to have some element of anger to it (or other reflex element, and Goten's "first" transformation showed). It's possible that Vegeta wasn't able to calm himself down enough to stay Super Saiyan while still being "normal".

I also assumed that whatever training methods he used in the two months before he achieved "Ultra/Ultimate Super Saiya-jin" probably made him stronger even without transforming to the next level. I mean, he must have been doing push-ups or something. I doubt he just stood around screaming until he surpassed "ordinary" Super Saiya-jin.

But then he only had two months of "real" training, whereas Goku and Gohan had a whole year. Granted, Gohan was weaker than Vegeta before either of them went in, but I assume that Goku would make sure he at least caught up to Vegeta's strength level, and Gohan did seem to be at least as strong as him. Possibly the half-Saiyan factor enabled Gohan to "level-up" quicker.

[James R. Cadwell]

I suspect that he might not have been able to do it. Turning Super Saiyan does seem to have some element of anger to it (or other reflex element, and Goten's "first" transformation showed). It's possible that Vegeta wasn't able to calm himself down enough to stay Super Saiyan while still being "normal".

That makes sense. I really can't picture Super Saiya-jin Vegeta calmly eating a bowl of cereal or reading a book while he was in the "Room of Spirit and Time".

[Dayspring]

I disagree with these 2 papers not better than one bits.

When Gohan fought Cell he was at least as strong as Goku, who wasn't far off from Cell. So:

SSJ Gohan: 125,000,000
Cell: 130,000,000

SSJ2 Gohan: 250,000,000 is a BIG ass diff from 130,000,000 (of course: all PLS are fake here)

[James R. Cadwell]

I disagree with these 2 papers not better than one bits.

When Gohan fought Cell he was at least as strong as Goku, who wasn't far off from Cell. So:

SSJ Gohan: 125,000,000
Cell: 130,000,000

SSJ2 Gohan: 250,000,000 is a BIG ass diff from 130,000,000 (of course: all PLS are fake here)

Linearly, it's only a difference of about 50%. That's nothing.

[Epsilon Grey]

Linearly, it's only a difference of about 50%. That's nothing.

So, have we come to a consenus as to the non-linear nature of power levels?

An exponential progression would make more sense, seeing as how Goku with a PL probably 'close' number-wise to Cell, knew that he couldn't beat him.

I suppose the nature of ki itself, being energy, lends itself to be considered and exponential progression. Something like fission, perhaps. To clarify, your PL is the amount of nuclei your ki has to split, yielding x amount of energy, so, the higher the PL, the more 'fuel' your ki has. Or vice versa. Not sure if I'm creating a cause/effect fallacy here.

--EG

[James R. Cadwell]

Linearly, it's only a difference of about 50%. That's nothing.

So, have we come to a consenus as to the non-linear nature of power levels?

I don't think anyone seriously argues that power levels are linear at this point.

An exponential progression would make more sense, seeing as how Goku with a PL probably 'close' number-wise to Cell, knew that he couldn't beat him.

There's no way of knowing how large the difference would have been had someone scanned them both with a scouter. The actual physical difference in strength was probably approximate to an average adult human female fighting an above-average male. They weren't on completely different levels, but Cell had a comfortable advantage.

I suppose the nature of ki itself, being energy, lends itself to be considered and exponential progression. Something like fission, perhaps. To clarify, your PL is the amount of nuclei your ki has to split, yielding x amount of energy, so, the higher the PL, the more 'fuel' your ki has. Or vice versa. Not sure if I'm creating a cause/effect fallacy here.

I don't think that "ki" has an "exponential nature". I just think that the scale used by the scouters is exponential. It could be something simple like:

Scouter reading of 1 = 1 unknown energy unit

Scouter reading of 2 = 2 unknown energy units

Scouter reading of 3 = 4 unknown energy units

Scouter reading of 4 = 8 unknown energy units

...with each consecutive number on the scale multiplying the previous "ki" value by two. So a power level of 101 would actually be twice as powerful as 100, even though the actual difference is only around 1%.

There's really any number of exponential scales that could explain all of the scouter reading weirdness.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this scale is just an example.

[Dayspring]

I think we're taking PLs to seriously. Note that 33% (Form 3 Freeza vs Piccolo) was a huuuuuge diff, but 300,000 (Goku) vs 4,000,000 (less than 10%) was enough to block Freeza's fingerbeams

[Xyex]

Thing is, the finger beams Frieza fired wouldn't have been at 4 million each or he'd have killed himself. I think, when Goku first showed up, he figured he was weaker than Vegeta. After all, as far as he knew, Vegeta was the strongest Saiya-jin. Thinking that he would have only used a small amount of power, probably enough to kill, say, Krillin, but nothing compared to Goku's power.

[James R. Cadwell]

I think we're taking PLs to seriously. Note that 33% (Form 3 Freeza vs Piccolo) was a huuuuuge diff, but 300,000 (Goku) vs 4,000,000 (less than 10%) was enough to block Freeza's fingerbeams

Wasn't Goku using Kaioken?

Either way, those power levels aren't strictly canon, so there isn't a major conflict.

[Beelz]

Exactly how strong was Piccolo compared to Goku at that point. I mean Goku had surpassed Ginyu but not by that much. Piccolo after Fusing with Nail would seem to be stronger than Goku even after being completly healed. The Kaio-Ken would add a suffcient power increase though. The real question I think that noone is asking is, just how much of a power increase do the Saiyans receive after nearly being killed then returning to full health?

[James R. Cadwell]

The Kaio-Ken would add a suffcient power increase though. The real question I think that noone is asking is, just how much of a power increase do the Saiyans receive after nearly being killed then returning to full health?

I suspect that it varies depending upon the severity of the injury and other factors.

[PsyLiam]

I don't think Goku was using Kaio-ken when he batted away Freeza's death beams, simply because he didn't have the red aura. And he hadn't shouted "Kaio-Ken!" either. I'd go with the idea that Freeza simply wasn't using his full power.

[James R. Cadwell]

I don't think Goku was using Kaio-ken when he batted away Freeza's death beams, simply because he didn't have the red aura. And he hadn't shouted "Kaio-Ken!" either. I'd go with the idea that Freeza simply wasn't using his full power.

When did Goku first begin using Kaioken? All I can remember from the FUNimation dub is Kaio-sama announcing that Goku is using Kaioken x 10 about half-way through the fight.

[Xyex]

I remember someone, I think Yamcha, saying that Goku still had an 'ace' up his sleeve, the Kaio-ken. Then King Kai told him that Goku had been using it the entire time. (Apparently, until that point, we couldn't see the red aura.) As far as I can remember Goku never said "Kaio-ken" during the course of the fight against Frieza.

[James R. Cadwell]

I remember someone, I think Yamcha, saying that Goku still had an 'ace' up his sleeve, the Kaio-ken. Then King Kai told him that Goku had been using it the entire time. (Apparently, until that point, we couldn't see the red aura.) As far as I can remember Goku never said "Kaio-ken" during the course of the fight against Freeza.

That's what I recalled. I don't know if it's clear when Goku first begins using Kaioken in the manga, but it always seemed to me like Goku had been using it the entire time. If Goku was really weaker than Freeza's first form, there's no way that he should have been able to block those attacks or even hope to fight Freeza directly.