Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Volk]

Do you guys think that when they referred to "doubling" the power that they were talking about Kaioken x1? Maybe that means that Kaioken x10 is Goku x 10^10 stronger? At least that's how I feel

even if you go by that, KK x10 won't be 10^10, but only 2^10 which is about 10^3

How close would that put Goku to Beerus? Beerus seemed surprised to see Goku pull that out.

And in math, to show 100000 in short hand, it is written as 1 x 10^5. So I was saying this.

Base Goku : 1
KK x 10 Goku : 1 x 10^10
SSB KK x 10 Goku : C x 10^10
(C being some constant)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the manga Goku didn't absorbed the SSJG power. Shenlong says the form is temporary, Goku isn't mentioned to have absorb it.

I again argue that Mr.Toriyama said he tried to write Super as simple as the manga. I'm only at chapter 5 now, but from I remember no chapter explains or points towards two bases.
In the anime and movie, yeah one can say Goku absorbs the God Ream, here he didn't. So which is it?

There's also no 70% talk, going away from the movie even more. SSJG level is left very open.

I'm talking specifically about Champa arc of the manga. The Battle of Gods arc of the manga is a shorter version of the movie with some alterations & additions, and the Resurrection "F" arc is skipped. However, the Champa arc is a complete adaptation of Toriyama's story draft with expansions from Toyotaro & Toriyama's guidiance, so until proven otherwise, I assume that it serves as a continuation of the original manga & the movies (which Toriyama implies in his latest interview).

[Speedster]

Do you guys think that when they referred to "doubling" the power that they were talking about Kaioken x1? Maybe that means that Kaioken x10 is Goku x 10^10 stronger? At least that's how I feel

even if you go by that, KK x10 won't be 10^10, but only 2^10 which is about 10^3

How close would that put Goku to Beerus? Beerus seemed surprised to see Goku pull that out.

And in math, to show 100000 in short hand, it is written as 1 x 10^5. So I was saying this.

Base Goku : 1
KK x 10 Goku : 1 x 10^10
SSB KK x 10 Goku : C x 10^10
(C being some constant)

Kaioken x10 multiplies your scouter power level by a factor of 10. And 10 is 1/log(2) doublings or in other words about 3.32 doublings ----- 2^(3.32) equals 10. How do you come up with this 10^10 for Kaiokenx10 Goku?

And 10^5 (dot know from where you get this number but anyway) multiplied by 2 is 2*10^5. And 10^5 multiplied by 10 is 10^6. You need some revision in maths for sure.

[Volk]

In the manga Goku didn't absorbed the SSJG power. Shenlong says the form is temporary, Goku isn't mentioned to have absorb it.

I again argue that Mr.Toriyama said he tried to write Super as simple as the manga. I'm only at chapter 5 now, but from I remember no chapter explains or points towards two bases.
In the anime and movie, yeah one can say Goku absorbs the God Ream, here he didn't. So which is it?

There's also no 70% talk, going away from the movie even more. SSJG level is left very open.

I'm talking specifically about Champa arc of the manga. The Battle of Gods arc of the manga is a shorter version of the movie with some alterations & additions, and the Resurrection "F" arc is skipped. However, the Champa arc is a complete adaptation of Toriyama's story draft with expansions from Toyotaro & Toriyama's guidiance, so until proven otherwise, I assume that it serves as a continuation of the original manga & the movies.

Wasn't it said in BoG and the BoG Arc that Goku absorbed the powers of a SSG and that's why he was able to continue the fight with beerus. It's been a while since I watched either but I'm pretty sure Goku was in SS when Beerus said that Goku had abosrbed the powers. I may be wrong, but maybe Goku is able to tap into the power of SSG in SS form and then SSB is just the perfected version of being able to tap into SSG. Kind of how SSJ2 is the perfected version of SSJ.

In conclusion, SSJB is the equivalent to SSJ2 in terms of being the perfected version of a SSJ who has the power to tap into God Ki.

[Volk]

It was an example, not a specific number that I was using to refer to any power level in the series.

And I dont get what you are trying to get at. You just stated things that are accepted in math??

[Chiki]

Personally, I view the manga version of Champa arc (and beyond) as the true continuation of the original manga & the movies (and with Toriyama's involvement & the way he talks about it in the latest interview, this seems to be the case), so until we see something different, I believe that Goku has 2 base forms. But the anime seems to have taken a different direction & has weakened base Goku with SSG powers while eliminating his regular form. So, it goes like this:

Spoiler:

...............Saiyan → Super Saiyan→ → → →
..................↓.................................↓
Saiyan with Super Saiyan God power → Super Saiyan Blue

Spoiler:

Saiyan → Super Saiyan → Super Saiyan Blue

With SS=SSG=x50 base

As for Piccolo, I really don't care if his boost is ridiculous. The Super anime is Toei's baby in Toei's world, which is full of bullshit power-ups, and IMO Piccolo is portrayed to be on that level in the anime.

This would be the most bullshit power up in Dragon Ball history by far. Even Goku's zenkai boost in the Frieza arc after fighting Ginyu was only x30.

He's only portrayed that way if you think that Frost is above Buu, which he's not because Goku really wanted Buu in the tournament and the implication from that is that Buu would've done really well in the tournament. He would have easily defeated Frost.

[LightBing]

In the manga Goku didn't absorbed the SSJG power. Shenlong says the form is temporary, Goku isn't mentioned to have absorb it.

I again argue that Mr.Toriyama said he tried to write Super as simple as the manga. I'm only at chapter 5 now, but from I remember no chapter explains or points towards two bases.
In the anime and movie, yeah one can say Goku absorbs the God Ream, here he didn't. So which is it?

There's also no 70% talk, going away from the movie even more. SSJG level is left very open.

I'm talking specifically about Champa arc of the manga. The Battle of Gods arc of the manga is a shorter version of the movie with some alterations & additions, and the Resurrection "F" arc is skipped. However, the Champa arc is a complete adaptation of Toriyama's story draft with expansions from Toyotaro & Toriyama's guidiance, so until proven otherwise, I assume that it serves as a continuation of the original manga & the movies (which Toriyama implies in his latest interview).

Ah ok, but didn't Mr.Toriyama supervised the whole Super Manga? I just find it odd that the it lacks something as important as the God realm absorption, it's a very significant plot point.

Could you please point me towards the part I underlined in your post? I read the interview but didn't interpret that way.

[apex_pretador]

Do you guys think that when they referred to "doubling" the power that they were talking about Kaioken x1? Maybe that means that Kaioken x10 is Goku x 10^10 stronger? At least that's how I feel

even if you go by that, KK x10 won't be 10^10, but only 2^10 which is about 10^3

How close would that put Goku to Beerus? Beerus seemed surprised to see Goku pull that out.

And in math, to show 100000 in short hand, it is written as 1 x 10^5. So I was saying this.

Base Goku : 1
KK x 10 Goku : 1 x 10^10
SSB KK x 10 Goku : C x 10^10
(C being some constant)

From where do you get these ^^^ 10's from?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Ah ok, but didn't Mr.Toriyama supervised the whole Super Manga? I just find it odd that the it lacks something as important as the God realm absorption, it's a very significant plot point.

The Battle of Gods arc was very rushed & short, unlike the Champa arc. We may get an explanation about it later.

Could you please point me towards the part I underlined in your post? I read the interview but didn't interpret that way.

Toriyama: Also, I think it would be great if you included more of your own original ideas. I’m really grateful to you. I never thought an artist like you would come along to draw the continuation of my story!

[Alee9977]

In the manga Goku didn't absorbed the SSJG power. Shenlong says the form is temporary, Goku isn't mentioned to have absorb it.

I again argue that Mr.Toriyama said he tried to write Super as simple as the manga. I'm only at chapter 5 now, but from I remember no chapter explains or points towards two bases.
In the anime and movie, yeah one can say Goku absorbs the God Ream, here he didn't. So which is it?

There's also no 70% talk, going away from the movie even more. SSJG level is left very open.

I'm talking specifically about Champa arc of the manga. The Battle of Gods arc of the manga is a shorter version of the movie with some alterations & additions, and the Resurrection "F" arc is skipped. However, the Champa arc is a complete adaptation of Toriyama's story draft with expansions from Toyotaro & Toriyama's guidiance, so until proven otherwise, I assume that it serves as a continuation of the original manga & the movies.

Wasn't it said in BoG and the BoG Arc that Goku absorbed the powers of a SSG and that's why he was able to continue the fight with beerus. It's been a while since I watched either but I'm pretty sure Goku was in SS when Beerus said that Goku had abosrbed the powers. I may be wrong, but maybe Goku is able to tap into the power of SSG in SS form and then SSB is just the perfected version of being able to tap into SSG. Kind of how SSJ2 is the perfected version of SSJ.

In conclusion, SSJB is the equivalent to SSJ2 in terms of being the perfected version of a SSJ who has the power to tap into God Ki.

I think when he was fighting Beerus in SSJ he didnt have a good control of the god ki, so he had both normal ki and god ki in his body, thats why he was very powerful. And after training with Whis, he had a better control of the god ki and unlocked the SSB, and now the SSJ is as strong as it was preBoG because he is only using the normal ki and not both in the transformation.
So SSB is fully god ki and regular SSJ is fully normal ki.

As I said in other post, if we forget about the 6-10-15 it will be easier to power levels make sense (although it is an anime where they all fly and shoot beams from their hands and get their hair yellow just because they get angry so there isnt much sense in it either)

[Volk]

From where do you get these ^^^ 10's from?

Exponents. Kk was said to be double the base power. So I took it as BasePower^2. By that logic, KK x3 would be Basepower^3 and so on and so forth onto the KK x 10 which is Basepower^10. Sorry for the confusion

[apex_pretador]

From where do you get these ^^^ 10's from?

Exponents. Kk was said to be double the base power. So I took it as BasePower^2. By that logic, KK x3 would be Basepower^3 and so on and so forth onto the KK x 10 which is Basepower^10. Sorry for the confusion

No, it'd be SQUARING, not doubling

You are doing base power x base power, not base power x 2 even then, you don't get 10 as the base of exponent.
Also, power levels don't multiply because units need to be in power levels as well, like Watts (Or kW or cal or kcal etc)

[Volk]

From where do you get these ^^^ 10's from?

Exponents. Kk was said to be double the base power. So I took it as BasePower^2. By that logic, KK x3 would be Basepower^3 and so on and so forth onto the KK x 10 which is Basepower^10. Sorry for the confusion

No, it'd be SQUARING, not doubling

You are doing base power x base power, not base power x 2 even then, you don't get 10 as the base of exponent.
Also, power levels don't multiply because units need to be in power levels as well, like Watts (Or kW or cal or kcal etc)

Yeah I messed up there. Whoops

[dbgtFO]

1. Whis/Vados.
2. Beerus/Champa.
3. SSB + Kaio-ken x10 Goku.
4. Hit.
5. Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta.
6. Majin Buu.
7. Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta.
8. Magetta.
9. Super Saiyan Cabba.
10. Frost.
11. Base Goku/Vegeta/Cabba.
12. Piccolo.
13. Botamo.
14. Monaka.

I agree with the notion that Buu was removed from the tournament, because he would have destroyed every U6 member except Hit. Frost is closer in power to pre-RoF Freeza than he is RoF Freeza and Saiyan Beyond God is no longer a thing, fitting with the BoG notion that Base Saiyans < Freeza, so yeah U6 guys are pretty weak.

I believe from a narrative standpoint it makes a bit more sense. We get Saiyans who have no idea about Super Saiyan and are stuck in the past compared to U7 Saiyans, who eventually migrated to Planet Plant and had their encounter with Freeza and all that stuff that made them unlock Super Saiyan and reach new even higher levels.
U6 Saiyans didn't, but they still managed to become quite powerful, because they have had the time to train and improve themselves in relative peace, eventually producing a generation of fighters who'd be strong by Namek Arc standards with Cabba likely as the strongest.
Their version of Freeza is basically the same as U7 Freeza, power-wise too, but maybe he's trained a little, so he doesn't bulk up at 100% power. In any case he's told to train, so he likely never had a need to, just like U7 Freeza, as he was probably considered the strongest in their universe, before this tournament.
I believe as I have always done, that it's just typical Toei video-game logic at work here.

[Alee9977]

And that's why there aren't anymore numbers. The only thing we have to know is Whis and Vados > Beerus and Champa > Everybody else.

[apex_pretador]

1. Whis/Vados.
2. Beerus/Champa.
3. SSB + Kaio-ken x10 Goku.
4. Hit.
5. Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta.
6. Majin Buu.
7. Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta.
8. Magetta.
9. Super Saiyan Cabba.
10. Frost.
11. Base Goku/Vegeta/Cabba.
12. Piccolo.
13. Botamo.
14. Monaka.

I agree with the notion that Buu was removed from the tournament, because he would have destroyed every U6 member except Hit. Frost is closer in power to pre-RoF Freeza than he is RoF Freeza and Saiyan Beyond God is no longer a thing, fitting with the BoG notion that Base Saiyans < Freeza, so yeah U6 guys are pretty weak.

I believe from a narrative standpoint it makes a bit more sense. We get Saiyans who have no idea about Super Saiyan and are stuck in the past compared to U7 Saiyans, who eventually migrated to Planet Plant and had their encounter with Freeza and all that stuff that made them unlock Super Saiyan and reach new even higher levels.
U6 Saiyans didn't, but they still managed to become quite powerful, because they have had the time to train and improve themselves in relative peace, eventually producing a generation of fighters who'd be strong by Namek Arc standards with Cabba likely as the strongest.
Their version of Freeza is basically the same as U7 Freeza, power-wise too, but maybe he's trained a little, so he doesn't bulk up at 100% power. In any case he's told to train, so he likely never had a need to, just like U7 Freeza, as he was probably considered the strongest in their universe, before this tournament.
I believe as I have always done, that it's just typical Toei video-game logic at work here.

what about piccolo - gohan - tagoma - ginyu - SS gohan - first form freeza chain?

[Volk]

If Hit was able to improve mid fight with Goku simply because Goku outmatched him, does that mean he could potentially become stronger than Beerus, Champa, Whis, and Vados? Well maybe not Whis and Vados. Interesting concept that was brought up in Ep. 39

[dbgtFO]

what about piccolo - gohan - tagoma - ginyu - SS gohan - first form freeza chain?

First Form Freeza: 1,300,000.
SS Gohan: 800,000.
Namek Freeza: 530,000.
Tagoma-Ginyu: 120,000.
Tagoma: 100,000.
Gohan: 80,000.
Piccolo: 50,000.

[Bullza]

The scene of Cell you are referencing is not in the manga.

Yes it is.

You are forgetting that 60% of that creature’s height is just a long neck. A fairer comparison to Giant Piccolo (not Super Giant Piccolo-just Giant Piccolo) in terms of volume would be a large blue whale that has a mass of 170 tonnes.

Well Piccolo weight doesn't particularly matter because as he kid when he was much weaker he pushed this boulder while dug into the Earth.



His power level was about 100 so about 20x that of a regular human but hundreds of humans together wouldn't budge that thing. Bora's power level likely wasn't that much less, it could have even been more and like I said Tao's power level was greatly less than 180 but Bora couldn't budge his spear an inch.

No. Kaioken was flat out stated to double the battle power level.

In the volume I have it just says strenght but I suppose strenght could just be in general.

Additionally when Goku described Kaioken to Krillin (referring to just the regular Kaioken) he said that Kaioken multiplies ones strength, speed, etc by several times over. Not just 2

He may not have been referring to just Kaioken. He already knows there's greater than Kaioken x2 and Kaioken x4, x5, x10 etc is still just the technique called Kaioken.

[apex_pretador]

what about piccolo - gohan - tagoma - ginyu - SS gohan - first form freeza chain?

First Form Freeza: 1,300,000.
SS Gohan: 800,000.
Namek Freeza: 530,000.
Tagoma-Ginyu: 120,000.
Tagoma: 100,000.
Gohan: 80,000.
Piccolo: 50,000.

Cell 50,000
Cell jr 30,000
Android 18 10,000
Krillin 8000

Also, what about the theory that the scouter numbers are based on freeza's power - like they will always be 1/530,000 of 1st F's level, and 1st F will always be 530,000. In that case, it'll fit:

F = 530,000
Gohan = 400,000
Ginyu = 120,000
Tagoma = 100,000
Piccolo = 60,000 (Significantly above nail)
Gohan = 40,000 (Ginyu force)
Shisami = 27,000
Krillin = 11,000 (over 10,000 as stated by ginyu force)
Random mooks = 200-4000
Roshi = 400