Bullza wrote:And this means what exactly?
That two characters of equal power level don't have equal stats. Burter had a power level similiar to that of Recoome and Jeice yet he was consider the fast one of the bunch.
So? Vegeta and Goku with a slightly higher power level (30% higher---not even double) were absolutely demolishing them and outclassing them in every single stat. The point that doubling your power level increases your strength, durability, etc by more than x2 still holds perfectly.
Bullza wrote:Android 17 was made out to be quick but weak when compared to Piccolo.
Piccolo was trash talking. Does this look a weak punch to you?
Or does this look to you that Piccolo wasn't acting big "saying he is warming up" when talking to him as a psychological war?
Instead we have them being stated
3 times to be equal in power. Besides as I said it is irrelevant. Imperfect Cell could beat them both easily. The debate is not what people with similar power level can do. We know that in fight they will be evenly matched anyway. The debate is how an increase in power level affects the capabilities of a character.
Speedster wrote:Apparently Roshi was in a supressed/rusty state during that time of those feats.
Bullza wrote:He was never shown to do any training or was implied to have gotten stronger during the time the boys trained. As their master who was trying to show them that there's always stronger out there it wouldn't make sense for him to hold back on anything. Goku and Krillin pushed that huge boulder. The same boulder it was implied Roshi couldn't move and even said he was joking about it being moved.
Roshi was actually partly training with his students. We saw him covering vast distances with them, zig-zagging around trees, etc and all these while wearing his own turtle shell too. So what is to say that this was not enough to get him out of rustiness and restore him to full power? And who is to say that he didn't train for the final month anyway? Roshi was the main "antagonist" of the arc after all and his participation a secret up to that point. and he didn't need to do the full training to recover old strength anyway. For the 22nd TB he needed to do secret traing as he needed to raise his power level to higher levels than it ever reached before (at least in the old body era).
But what do you really propose? That Roshi (supposedly full (non-buff form) power at the time according to you) was actually weaker than kid Goku at the start of the training and remained at the same level until the tournament. Yet we saw Goku getting at least 50x stronger (since he moved a boulder of AT LEAST 50x bigger volume). And we also see Roshi in the tournament beating the shit out of Krillin (who did the same feat) and be on par with Goku or even be superior to him. And as this was in a fight we can say that his fighting abilities (strength, speed, etc) were more or less similar to Goku’s and superior to Krillin’s. So really what do you propose to explain this? You are willing to accept that this was possible because of what exactly? Either you are going to claim it is an inconsistency or accept that Roshi was suppressed/rusty at the start of the training.
Speedster wrote:Goku doesn't need to have a power level of 10.
Bullza wrote:Well that's what it said.
What said? The manga? Nope. For some reason you throw Mr Satan, the humans and Daizenshuu’s worthless number of Goku’s initial power level of 10 into the mix. Only for you to conclude that it is inconsistent! So why use it in the first place?! Besides it doesn’t seem too inconsistent to me anyway. You have kid Goku at 10, Yamcha at 8.5 and Mr Satan at 7.5. With an non-linear scale it fits perfectly.
Bullza wrote:Mr Satan was strong for a human but not overwhelmingly so, his punch on the punching machine came in at 137 points. A generic boxer got 97 points so it's not even double.
How do you know how the machine works or its calibration? You just randomly assume it is linear. There is usually some kind of spiral torsion spring in such machines usually making it a non-linear measuring. Besides as we are talking about punching strength. These things are ki-enhanced capabities so power levels are of primary importance when it comes to characters who can enhance their force of their punches with ki. Here you just picked character with no ki control.
Bullza wrote:Meanwhile Yamcha was weaker than Goku but he was able to send him through several stone pillars.
You mention that a weaker Yamcha knocked away a stronger Goku. You first assume Yamcha is weaker then you complain he knocked away a stronger Goku. But yeah he was weaker and you know why he managed to knocked Goku? Because Goku was hungry and out of energy. Goku beat Yamcha very easily when non-hungry and Yamcha was afraid of him thereafter planning only to use the tail weakness.
Bullza wrote:So in between 5-10 you have a fat farmer, a boxer, the world's stronger regular human, Yamcha and Goku.From a unhealthy man to a guy who can pull boulders out the ground and crush them between his arms the difference is enormous but then the difference between him and Roshi whose like 10x stronger is considerably smaller.
]Goku got at the very least 50x stronger from the first 7 months of training and Roshi matched him more than evenly. Additionally for the 5-10 range characters. You rank them by physical strength but forgetting that people in the 100+ we are actually interested in enhance their capabilities with ki and that is what power levels are about. Goku even in the Buu arc is not THAT very strong without ki anyway.
The difference between 5-10 is the same as the difference between 10-100. That is how logarithmic scales work.
But let’s set this straight. You tried to support that Kaioken doesn’t double your power level but only your strength and thus it represents a much smaller increase in power level. You quoted the Viz translation while you perfectly know it is a mistranslation on that matter and that in the Japanese original version Toriyama himself wrote that it doubles your battle power level. There is no dispute here. Not only this but we have actual *proof* that indeed Kaioken does multiply your power level by whatever factor mentioned as KKx3 took Goku from 8000 to over 21000 and kept rising.
Yes, of course power levels don't apply perfectly in the first 194 chapters of the manga i.e. before even the conception of the idea of power levels. The original author himself even forgot the feats of his characters in early Dragonball – if he remembered them then Goku would throw a pillar or a tree trunk ala Tao and travel across snakeway in a week instead of running for 6 months like an idiot and while wearing his training clothes. As far as power scaling goes we *can* be fairly sure though that at least things that happen within 10-15 consecutive chapters are fairly consistent with each other especially when they apply to the same character. So we can see the temporal intentions and also scale the relative growth. You don't need power levels to see that Goku improved 8-fold after training with Karin. Or that he got 30x faster after his training with Kaio. Or that 50% Freeza is 1 million times stronger than Vegeta (post ape)-- see Genki dama dimensions.
