Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

So? Vegeta and Goku with a slightly higher power level (30% higher---not even double) were absolutely demolishing them and outclassing them in every single stat.

When was Vegeta ever slightly higher? That time he killed Jeice he was strong enough to go up against Frieza in his form he was several times as strong as Jeice. Goku could have been twice as strong if the Ginyu Force members had a power level of around 45,000.

Piccolo was trash talking.

Then why is he complimenting him on his speed? That's the opposite of trash talking. He doesn't specifically say he's weak, he says his punch isn't much. Implying that his punch is not as strong as Piccolo's who he's equal to in power but he's still fast.

Roshi was actually partly training with his students. We saw him covering vast distances with them, zig-zagging around trees, etc and all these while wearing his own turtle shell too.

He was shown to go on one run with his students when delivering milk, more than likely to show them the route they needed to take. He did not wear his shell at the time.

He didn't take part in the digging, the swimming, the bee dodging etc. In fact it could be implied that he wasn't even present during this time because the two boys had clearly been trying to push that big rock throughout their training and Roshi was surprised by how strong they'd actually got.

Nothing really implies that he did anything the whole time besides show them what they were supposed to do each day and then basic lessons like math.

Either you are going to claim it is an inconsistency or accept that Roshi was suppressed/rusty at the start of the training.

It's obviously an inconsistency. What would he let his students show him up and let him push the rock farther than if he wanted them to know there's people stronger around? He had no problem out racing him. So at that point he was portrayed as being faster but weaker than him despite being several times more powerful. Goku and Krillin moved a boulder than Roshi said he was joking about being able to move it.

If Roshi is then as strong as them then it's inconsistent.

How do you know how the machine works or its calibration? You just randomly assume it is linear.

It's make little difference if it wasn't. Another generic fighter got a score of 112. So Mr Satan while very strong for human standards isn't far and above anyone. Not to the extent he could pull 4 buses like the anime depicted.

But yeah he was weaker and you know why he managed to knocked Goku? Because Goku was hungry and out of energy.

That's not the point. The point is that he with a power level that could not be that far off Mr Satan's was able to hit a fairly solid kid through several columns of rock. Something that Mr Satan could never do it.

A power level difference of 1 or 2 is the difference between being stronger than the usual boxer or karate man to knocking some through rocks?

If scaled that quickly then Goku had no business being able to hold Raditz.

Goku got at the very least 50x stronger from the first 7 months of training

We don't know that. He pushed the smaller boulder a further distance with considerably less effort than when he pushed the larger boulder a shorter distance. He could have been able to push a boulder twice that size if he hardly struggled with the first one.

You tried to support that Kaioken doesn’t double your power level but only your strength

I never said that. I never said anything about Kaioken not doubling their power level. I said in the official English translated that the narration said that "not even doubling his strenght with the Kaioken...".

Which isn't me saying that it only doubles their strenght but in that particular comment it refers to strenght. Which yes could also just mean power level or it could just be double strenght along with double the power level.

[dbgtFO]

Either you are going to claim it is an inconsistency or accept that Roshi was suppressed/rusty at the start of the training.

It's obviously an inconsistency. What would he let his students show him up and let him push the rock farther than if he wanted them to know there's people stronger around? He had no problem out racing him. So at that point he was portrayed as being faster but weaker than him despite being several times more powerful. Goku and Krillin moved a boulder than Roshi said he was joking about being able to move it.

If Roshi is then as strong as them then it's inconsistent.

Roshi could just be faster than them and then just beat them with superior speed. Perhaps he lacks upper body strength, compared to the undoubted strength in his legs, whereas Goku and Krillin acquired more upper body strength compared to lower body strength?
Don't know if this make any scientific sense though!

About #17 vs Piccolo, #17 has the greater acceleration, but his mass is much lower, thus he strikes with the same force as Piccolo, who is the opposite; huge mass, low acceleration.

#17
Mass: 60 kg.
Acceleration: 200 m/s²
Force = 12,000 N.

Piccolo
Mass: 200 kg.
Acceleration: 60 m/s²
Force = 12,000 N.

[RandomGuy96]

I just noticed something. Old news, but:

Super, Episode 21, Minute: 3
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”

This conversation pretty much confirms that Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with Freeza's 1st form, if nothing else.

[Volk]

The way I see power levels: (With explanations)

1. Whis/Vados : We can't determine which of the two is stronger as we haven't seen there full power yet, however, being that Whis and Vados trained Beerus and Champa, we can assume that they are stronger than Beerus and Champa.

2. Beerus > Champa : During there confrontation of Beerus' planet, Beerus took Champa's "Match" as a joke, showing that Beerus knew that he could beat Champa in a one on one.

3. SSGB KK x10 Goku : Below Beerus at this point, however, from episode 39, we can see that he was pretty much wiping the floor with Hit in his "Improved Form" (.5 of a second time skip).

4. Hit "Improved Form" : We began to see Hit outclass SSB Goku, even if it was for a brief period of time, after he had undergone his improvement.

5. SSB Goku/Vegeta : We can put Vegeta and Goku around the same level in this form as they were both trained by Whis as well as used each other as sparring partners in the HTC.

6. Hit : I put Hit below Vegeta and Goku because we saw that SSB was wiping the floor with Hit in episode 39. This leads us to believe that Vegeta could've done the same thing had he had the preparation Goku had before going into this fight (Watching hit in order to predict his movements).

Frankly, below this level, I stopped caring as I really only care for the power houses. However, we can definitely put the SSJ's above anyone on Champa's team. I would have that something like this.

7. SSJ Goku/Vegeta

8. FF Frost

9. SSJ Cabba

10. Maggeta

11. Piccolo

12. Botamo

I don't include Buu because the last time we saw him fight was back in EOZ were he knocked out those street fighters to win the money to buy ice cream.

These power levels are only for the people who are in the Champa Arc.

[ZombieVito]

I just noticed something. Old news, but:

Super, Episode 21, Minute: 3
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”

This conversation pretty much confirms that Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with Freeza's 1st form, if nothing else.

Pretty much. It gets reinforced in episode 30 when Goku calls Boo's power amazing when angered.

[Bullza]

So how is Goku able to hit Hit?

I thought Hit could stop time for everyone else but himself for now up to 0.5 seconds. It shouldn't matter how strong a person is for 0.5 seconds they should completely defenceless frozen in place right?

But Goku is still hitting him how? Is he still moving when Hit stops time or something?

[RandomGuy96]

So how is Goku able to hit Hit?

I thought Hit could stop time for everyone else but himself for now up to 0.5 seconds. It shouldn't matter how strong a person is for 0.5 seconds they should completely defenceless frozen in place right?

But Goku is still hitting him how? Is he still moving when Hit stops time or something?

He's faster than time. Or something. If Flash can do it, why not him?

[Volk]

So how is Goku able to hit Hit?

I thought Hit could stop time for everyone else but himself for now up to 0.5 seconds. It shouldn't matter how strong a person is for 0.5 seconds they should completely defenceless frozen in place right?

But Goku is still hitting him how? Is he still moving when Hit stops time or something?

I think it was said that at the speed that Goku is at now, that Hit shouldn't even try his time skip technique anymore as it is useless against him.

[Lord Beerus]

So how is Goku able to hit Hit?

I thought Hit could stop time for everyone else but himself for now up to 0.5 seconds. It shouldn't matter how strong a person is for 0.5 seconds they should completely defenceless frozen in place right?

But Goku is still hitting him how? Is he still moving when Hit stops time or something?

He's faster than time. Or something. If Flash can do it, why not him?

Yep. That's pretty much it. Goku can literally move faster than time. It makes no sense, but that's exactly what happened. Go figure.

[Bullza]

I don't really get it, how can you move faster than time? No matter how fast you are shouldn't they be frozen if time in general has frozen?

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think it has anything to do with being "faster than time", if that makes sense. Goku knows how Hit moves after his tokitobashi, so he can react accordingly. That's possible because he watched how he attacked Vegeta. His reaction time while using kaioken is so insane that even if Hit stops time, Goku acted far ahead, seeming that he is moving during frozen time.

[Desassina]

If Hit is allowed to move to a second later, then he has to react accordingly to what he has frozen, and Goku had already moved into a fraction of that second, so Hit ran into him.

[Low Tone G]

If Hit is allowed to move to a second later, then he has to react accordingly to what he has frozen, but Goku had already moved into a fraction of that second, and so Hit ran into him.

I didn't really understand what did Goku do in the frozen time, but it would made more sense if Goku learned the ability to enter in frozen time, in other words, to learn Hit's technique himself too.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't really get it, how can you move faster than time? No matter how fast you are shouldn't they be frozen if time in general has frozen?

Dragon Ball's logic is to defy logic.

[Desassina]

I guess that the anime is enjoying the benefit of motion that the manga doesn't have. Hit was 0.5 seconds short of his deadline, which means that if Goku got fast enough to be at 0.4, Hit would be hit (sorry ). Motion is a means to show that Goku went from one place to another before the ability reached its deadline, but remember that we're supposed to witness an instant, and not Hit's world, the same way you see a time traveller appearing without the time and space tube that he goes through.

[Sora Saiyan]

I don't think it has anything to do with being "faster than time", if that makes sense. Goku knows how Hit moves after his tokitobashi, so he can react accordingly. That's possible because he watched how he attacked Vegeta. His reaction time while using kaioken is so insane that even if Hit stops time, Goku acted far ahead, seeming that he is moving during frozen time.

That really isn't what's shown though, Goku is actually shown to be frozen and then as Hit tries to attack him Goku starts moving again, and blocks Hit then punches him in the gut. It's nothing to do with reactions as Goku was shown in a defenceless position when he is frozen but like I said he starts moving, and he actually moves faster than Hit during Hits Tokitobashi. Hits new time skip is impossible to react to anyway, he hit Goku numerous times in 0.5 seconds so there was no way Goku could react to that, he could block one of Hits attacks, maybe, but the other lot would hit him.

[SansrivaaL]

So how is Goku able to hit Hit?

I thought Hit could stop time for everyone else but himself for now up to 0.5 seconds. It shouldn't matter how strong a person is for 0.5 seconds they should completely defenceless frozen in place right?

But Goku is still hitting him how? Is he still moving when Hit stops time or something?

Goku absorbed all the speed force making him faster than time itself. This seriously is some Hunter Zolomon Zoom shit.

[Speedster]

^Bullza, mate, not sure what your overall point is (you failed to reveal it so far). But allow me to correct some of the incorrect statements you keep making for one last time. I will let you have the last word as you seem so keen on having it.

Goku got at the very least 50x stronger from the first 7 months of training

We don't know that. He pushed the smaller boulder a further distance with considerably less effort than when he pushed the larger boulder a shorter distance. He could have been able to push a boulder twice that size if he hardly struggled with the first one.

Kid Goku got AT LEAST 50x stronger by that point.
1. The rock was actually 60x bigger (I lowballed it down to 50x)
2. The rock was far more submerged into the ground
3. The static friction is greater than the kinetic friction (so the biggest force you need is when you initiate the movement not while moving it)
4. How far you push something has more to do with your stamina as the energy required per unit time is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance moved per unit time.
5. During that feat Goku was wearing a 20kg turtle shell and we know that weighted clothing reduces your power level –see Goku going from 334 to 408. He was not wearing a turtle shell when he first pushed the smaller rock.
6. To further elaborate on point 5. When they removed the turtle shells (2.3~3x gravity training) at the end of the training they could jump to the clouds while in the panel right before that it showed them being very surprised that during that jump they reached a height of 2x a tree. So 2 trees height was probably even higher than they ever jumped (and that includes the period wearing shells). So now they could project themselves with a force at the very least 100x bigger (not to mention 1000). We also see a similar thing at Kaio's planet - Goku's at Kaio's with a total gravity of x27 (with weights) could just jump 5-8m.
7. The estimated power level of Goku as 100 in the tournament was after another month of harder training (wearing 40kg turtle shells and doing the same things).

Piccolo was trash talking.

Then why is he complimenting him on his speed? That's the opposite of trash talking.

He wasn’t complimenting him at all. He said “you may be quick but…”The speed of #17 was something Piccolo couldn't deny as his attacks were getting dodged by #17 and himself was unable to outmanoeuvre #17’s and was getting hit. But he was throwing doubts to #17 about the effect that his punches had on him. Like saying: “Oh you may be able to hit me but I don't feel anything”….while I am internally bleeding or so.

He doesn't specifically say he's weak, he says his punch isn't much. Implying that his punch is not as strong as Piccolo's who he's equal to in power but he's still fast.

YOU (not me) said he is portrayed as weak compared to Piccolo in your previous post. You seem to forget what you say.

Android 17 was made out to be quick but weak when compared to Piccolo

Goku could have been twice as strong if the Ginyu Force members had a power level of around 45,000.

It was stated to be 60,000 before powering up but even if it was 90,000 (which it wasn't) Goku was still much faster than 2x than Burter and Jeice - you can deduce it simply by comparing the distances Goku moved relative to what they covered at the same interval.

It's obviously an inconsistency. What would he let his students show him up and let him push the rock farther than if he wanted them to know there's people stronger around? He had no problem out racing him. So at that point he was portrayed as being faster but weaker than him despite being several times more powerful. Goku and Krillin moved a boulder than Roshi said he was joking about being able to move it.

So that’s your point? To artificially create inconsistencies of things that are perfectly explainable by dismissing valid explanations for no reason or just because you don't like them? We have been told *nothing* about Roshi NOT being rusty and we have not seen the final month before the tournament either. Moving 100m in 5 seconds is not fast actually at all. We saw Roshi’s true speed during the tournament anyway. Moving and doing all that crazy stuff in 0.2 seconds, creating speed mirages, etc. Who knows after seeing them doing that boulder feat he might have then realised he needs to get out of rustiness and participate in the tournament himself to prevent them from winning as he released there was no way for anyone else to beat them. Remember that Krillin who was after all was getting bullied by other temple students so was fairly ordinary. Anyway perhaps a couple of days of preparation for Roshi were enough to restore his full power. Perhaps just stretching the muscles of his buff form could enable him to do so. Anything could have happened. Toriyama for whatever narrative reasons didn't choose to say anything and the whole thing was a gag. It is definitely NOT an inconsistency. In worst case scenario you can call it poor writing/plothole (by the way plothole=/=inconsistency)

The point is that Yamcha with a power level that could not be that far off Mr Satan's was able to hit a fairly solid kid through several columns of rock. Something that Mr Satan could never do it.

Mr Satan got hit by Cell, crashed onto a mountain and survived. He also tanked blows from kid Trunks, kid Buu and Lord Beerus. By your logic this is far more impressive than what kid Goku or Yamcha ever did.

A power level difference of 1 or 2 is the difference between being stronger than the usual boxer or karate man to knocking some through rocks?

That’s not how it works. It is percentile. 9 is about 30% larger than 7 and we have seen how big gap 30% difference in power level can be. Also you do realise the logarithmic nature? Do you know what logarithmic scale is by the way? Here read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_scale.

Besides, so what if there were an inconsistency with the system for non-Ki users? It is for Ki-users who can enhance their abilities by Ki that this system matters actually. You also try to shoehorn everyone between 5 and 10 (despite 10 NOT being in the manga) then you complain about it! I don't disagree that feats in Dragonball are inconsistent but within the period power levels were used one thing was incredibly consistent. That doubling your power level results in a lot more than 2x increase in your stats. True it is far more linearised for the >500 range than the <500 range but it is still very non linear. It may be logarithmic or exponential, piecewise exponential or parametric but it’s *definitely* a non-linear function with +ve gradient at all times.

I don't really get it, how can you move faster than time? No matter how fast you are shouldn't they be frozen if time in general has frozen?

In real physics if you run at the speed of light, time stops, space is shrunk. If you move faster you can go back in time. Equally you can perceive things before happening causing causality problems. Suppose A sends to B a letter. B reads it and responds. A gets the response. If you travel faster than light it is possible for A to receive the response that B sent him before A even sending the letter in the first place.

[supersaiyan1993]

Power levels are so inconsistent. The battle of God scale was only applicable on that movie only. Super has changed things about.
Ssj multiplier does not exist anymore.

However there are some things that are clear.
When goku fought frieza final form. He wasn't at Base but rather in a form called saiyan beyond God which was as strong super saiyan God. That form was a transition stage for which goku and vegeta improved and achieved ss blue. Ss blue is stronger that Ss God.

Beerus is currently still far stronger than goku and vegeta

[Bullza]

I don't think it has anything to do with being "faster than time", if that makes sense. Goku knows how Hit moves after his tokitobashi, so he can react accordingly.

Well before Goku used SSJB Kaiokenx10, Hit said his time extended up to 0.5 seconds and he proceeded to land a barrage of attacks on a Goku that was frozen in place which put him on his knees. This was when the background turned to crystal.

After Goku uses Kaiokenx10 there's a brief moment where Hit uses the power again and the background turns to crystal again but this time Goku isnt frozen and he's able to move even.

So he can still move even when Hit has apparently stopped time for everyone else. Though I don't really know why but he seems more like what Hit was doing is not stopping time but greatly slowing down time for everyone else but now Goku is fast enough for it to not stop him entirely.

I will let you have the last word as you seem so keen on having it.

No it's ok you went and extended the discussion too much and it's taking up more and more time to respond to it and it'll be never ending. I don't have enough time for all that.