Thoughts on Cell arc

[Kuririn Fan]

He does say that they all can be revived but only if they died within the past year. But you watch the dub, so you wouldn't know that.

What the fuck dude ? Seriously you look like a massive ass. Well I do arguing with a dub fan can be hard if watch the JPN version but ABED watches the sub and even then that's some serious douchebaggery to have the nerve to just automatically assume he doesn't and you're right.

There was no reason to bump this just to say that i'm an ass. If you don't have anything to say about Cell arc, then don't say anything.

[ABED]

He does say that they all can be revived but only if they died within the past year. But you watch the dub, so you wouldn't know that.

What the fuck dude ? Seriously you look like a massive ass. Well I do arguing with a dub fan can be hard if watch the JPN version but ABED watches the sub and even then that's some serious douchebaggery to have the nerve to just automatically assume he doesn't and you're right.

There was no reason to bump this just to say that i'm an ass. If you don't have anything to say about Cell arc, then don't say anything.

Well for some reason I can't PM you, but there was ZERO reason to talk to anyone in the fashion you talked to me. It's not even the fact that it was me that bugs me, it's the condescending attitude of "I which version you watched". What makes it worse is it's based on the fact that I might be wrong about something so trivial that you've passed judgment and talk down to me like I would be less of a fan for 1) not knowing what you know and 2) watching the dub only. But as anyone here can tell you who has spent a minute communicating with me, my preference is the original. Now can we keep this on topic and act like mature adults capable of discussion and disagreement without resorting to condescension?

On topic, the Cell arc has a lot of good moments like the early mystery surrounding Cell and the fight between Piccolo and No. 17, but much of it is lackluster. My least favorite aspect of it is Gohan needing his hand held the entire fight with Cell. Instead of choosing to go down swinging, he once again needs Goku to tell him to fight.

[dbgtFO]

I had never thought about what you mention GafferTape, the whole deal with them allowing Dr. Gero to work on his killer droids, but then not allowing him to release the real terrors of Trunks' timeline once the plot no longer requires them to be stupid.
It could like Gourou stated, that they just follow their leader; Goku, the guy who always comes and saves the day, but when he's out of the picture, they become far more cautious and recognizing the reckless Vegeta as not fit for leadership, they turn to Trunks, the guy who destroyed the last major villain, when Goku hadn't arrived yet.

[Gorou]

In fact, they set out to follow Son Goku, the fighter for excellence, which in the past had defeated other monsters deemed invincible, at the time, as Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza. The fact that their death, in a possible future, both coinciding with the premature departure of Goku, should only reinforce their confidence in a possible turning point.

[ekrolo2]

The arc where the good guys totally deserved to die slowly and painfully for their actions.

[Gorou]

The arc where the good guys totally deserved to die slowly and painfully for their actions.

If it's any consolation, everyone has received its share of defeats and humiliations.

[Ozotto]

Probably the best arc in the entirety of DBZ, in my opinion.

The character development can't be beat.

It was the only arc that had one of the greatest/ fan favorite characters (Future Trunks).

The Z Fighters never looked more solid as a team than in this arc, after this arc, most if not all the humans went by the wayside.
- Everyone shows up to fight mecha frieza.
- Everyone shows up at west city.
- Everyone shows up at cell games.

You also had many great iconic attacks used for the first time.
Big Bang
Final Flash
Warp Kamehameha
Tri Beam
Father son kamehameha
Hell Zone Grenade

We see the inner Gohan finally come out, which was foreshadowed from the start of Z. Defeats Cell as ssj2.

So many bad ass moments...
"Tell me do androids experience fear?"
"The Nightmares over Cell, DIE!"

There's a reason why this era of Z fighters was featured most in games and promotional art back in the day.
Nothing looked better than the four super saiyans and piccolo. Plus some of the humans being able to contend with lesser henchmen still.

[Soppa Saia People]

He does say that they all can be revived but only if they died within the past year. But you watch the dub, so you wouldn't know that.

What the fuck dude ? Seriously you look like a massive ass. Well I do arguing with a dub fan can be hard if watch the JPN version but ABED watches the sub and even then that's some serious douchebaggery to have the nerve to just automatically assume he doesn't and you're right.

There was no reason to bump this just to say that i'm an ass. If you don't have anything to say about Cell arc, then don't say anything.

5 days isn't a bump and there was really no reason to be such an ass to ABED. Anyway as ABED said let's try to act mature about this.

[lancerman]

Probably my least favorite arc. Most other arcs had some method to the madness. It was pretty obvious they kept shifting the goal posts until they got something they liked.

[DonAce]

Probably my least favorite arc. Most other arcs had some method to the madness. It was pretty obvious they kept shifting the goal posts until they got something they liked.

I completely agree with this, I hear people that it was all building up to Cell, but Cell isn't built up, he comes out of nowhere after the Artificial Humans are built up so much. I've heard people bring up their love for the arc, citing it as an example of Toriyama's brilliance at writing off the cuff, but to me it sticks out like a sore thumb as being made up as it went along (not that all arcs weren't like that, but it's so obvious here). I mean, imagine if Kaioshin spent all his time building up Majin Boo, talking about the absolute terror he could bring down upon the earth only have him show up, break an arm, then have some random guy show up and eat him like bubble gum.

[Gorou]

Piccolo Daimao, Freeza, the sajyan, Majin Buu, they all come from nothing, and are never mentioned before; Vegeta, in the saiyan arc, defines himself as the strongest in space.

Cell is presented as a villain altogether weaker than the heroes (unlike all the others, who are more strong from the beginning) and construction on the threat he represented is fully materialized in its perfect form, which not even Goku is able to defeat. His arrival on the scene was handled superbly (the part and the mystery of the monster that has eliminated a city is one of the best section of the arc). Then, it is also a subjective matter, because some are more affected than others from twists and unpredictability.

[ABED]

Probably my least favorite arc. Most other arcs had some method to the madness. It was pretty obvious they kept shifting the goal posts until they got something they liked.

I completely agree with this, I hear people that it was all building up to Cell, but Cell isn't built up, he comes out of nowhere after the Artificial Humans are built up so much. I've heard people bring up their love for the arc, citing it as an example of Toriyama's brilliance at writing off the cuff, but to me it sticks out like a sore thumb as being made up as it went along (not that all arcs weren't like that, but it's so obvious here). I mean, imagine if Kaioshin spent all his time building up Majin Boo, talking about the absolute terror he could bring down upon the earth only have him show up, break an arm, then have some random guy show up and eat him like bubble gum.

It was building up to Cell, the mystery was due to Cell. And the Cyborgs were built up for only a handful of episodes. How is Cell "random"?

[Gorou]

And the Cyborgs were built up for only a handful of episodes. How is Cell "random"?

Even less in the manga. We pass by the warning of Trunks to the defeat of the first androids (the originals) in a few chapters. In addition, the disproportionate power of Cell is much more justifiable, because he is a chimera of all the strongest fighters of the universe.

[DonAce]

It was building up to Cell, the mystery was due to Cell. And the Cyborgs were built up for only a handful of episodes. How is Cell "random"?

Well, out of Universe he was random. Toriyama's previous editor disliked the Cyborgs and pressured him into changing. It does feel quite random to me even in universe though, I mean Trunks builds up the cyborgs as a threat, he spends so much time hyping them up, to the point where we get a special chapter and episode showing how ruthless they are only for them to show up and really do hardly anything before the story shifts to cell.

[Gorou]

Even the SSJ was not contemplate, as the other 2 Freeza's transformation. Toriyama has always been an improviser.

Many people are marching on on the observations of the interviews, but I think toriyama has been able to handle it very well, taking advantage of this to generate a suspense, a series of twists and an aura of mystery, with a hint of horror, in Cell' introduction, who we have never seen before. The introduction of Cell is managed very well and is not at all forced. Indeed, he himself is imposed as a leading responsible of the change of the events. Temporal paradoxes, and the multiverse theory, provide an ample room for maneuver in the rewriting of history. So, in overall, there is nothing that sounds random. The Androids appear and easily defeated two trained SSJ, then, they not have disappointed too much expectations, in terms of power. The difference is in their lack of cruelty, which prompted us to save the warriors after they defeat.

[ABED]

It was building up to Cell, the mystery was due to Cell. And the Cyborgs were built up for only a handful of episodes. How is Cell "random"?

Well, out of Universe he was random. Toriyama's previous editor disliked the Cyborgs and pressured him into changing. It does feel quite random to me even in universe though, I mean Trunks builds up the cyborgs as a threat, he spends so much time hyping them up, to the point where we get a special chapter and episode showing how ruthless they are only for them to show up and really do hardly anything before the story shifts to cell.

Here's why it works for me. Yes Trunks warns our heroes about the threat, but the mere fact that he tells them about it changes things. And second, if there was such a build towards them, why would they fight the big bads right off the bat? To me, that shows that there was a twist coming. Trunks tells Goku about the cyborgs and within 5 episodes, he's fighting them. That isn't hype. The time travel aspect always throws curve balls, it's supposed to. Almost as soon as they cyborgs arrive, we get and idea that something odd is going on. For some reason there are different Cyborgs and then we're told these one's are even stronger than the one's Trunks fought and then there's No. 16 whom Trunks never knew about. It's an organic mystery.

The difference is in their lack of cruelty

Which is also a part of the mystery.

[DonAce]

Here's why it works for me. Yes Trunks warns our heroes about the threat, but the mere fact that he tells them about it changes things. And second, if there was such a build towards them, why would they fight the big bads right off the bat? To me, that shows that there was a twist coming. Trunks tells Goku about the cyborgs and within 5 episodes, he's fighting them. That isn't hype. The time travel aspect always throws curve balls, it's supposed to. Almost as soon as they cyborgs arrive, we get and idea that something odd is going on. For some reason there are different Cyborgs and then we're told these one's are even stronger than the one's Trunks fought and then there's No. 16 whom Trunks never knew about. It's an organic mystery.

It might have worked if it were actually building to Cell from the beginning, but it clearly wasn't. Freeza was a clearly established threat since the beginning there and it allowed us to built up a sense of dread about him. Now, you can say that Cell is supposed to be a mystery, but in any good mystery there's build up, foreshadowing, and in subsequent reads or watches you can piece it together before it happens. Now, I don't mind that #19 and #20 aren't the right artificial humans, I actually like that part a lot. It's fun to see our heroes get confident and beat a threat so easily only to have the rug pulled from underneath them, but then they tried to pull that again with Cell in a much less organic way. I do think the Cell arc has its strengths, but villain build up isn't one of them to me. I can see it worked for you though, so enjoy.

[ABED]

What would you consider building towards Cell? It was written as a mystery and you don't want to telegraph his arrival. Freeza was completely different. He wasn't hiding and buying his time until he could get stronger. Part of the dread in that early part of the arc is that you don't know quite what is going and why things are so different. Yes, there was foreshadowing. I think what you want would be telegraphing. Cell is very organic to the story. History was changing so it make sense that the threat wouldn't be what Trunks thought it would be. I think this is a case of you knowing the story behind how the story evolved and that is influencing how you watch the story, but it all works together well. I'm unsure as to what specifically would qualify as foreshadowing Cell in an organic way before we see him or even see the other time machine.

Finally, the twist that Cell is responsible for so many changes works because it's not just another twist in the story. 17 and 18 weren't yet another misdirect, they are vital to the story as part of Cell's mission.

[DonAce]

Well, I think there is a space between telegraphing and foreshadowing. I don't feel he's totally foreshadowed except with the whole "Why are things so different" routine, which for some people may be enough. Largely though, we go entire volumes building up the artificial humans, only to not have them do much. It really does feel like Toriyama trying to sweep them under the rug until he got a villain that was good enough. Again, I compare it to Majin Boo where he is built up as a monstrosity by Kaioshin similarly to how the Artificial Humans were built up by Trunks, only Boo is never swept away for someone else so I think the pay off was better. I really don't know if this topic is making much headway though, I don't think anyone is gonna convince anyone else of anything here.

[ABED]

Well, I think there is a space between telegraphing and foreshadowing. I don't feel he's totally foreshadowed except with the whole "Why are things so different" routine, which for some people may be enough. Largely though, we go entire volumes building up the artificial humans, only to not have them do much. It really does feel like Toriyama trying to sweep them under the rug until he got a villain that was good enough. Again, I compare it to Majin Boo where he is built up as a monstrosity by Kaioshin similarly to how the Artificial Humans were built up by Trunks, only Boo is never swept away for someone else so I think the pay off was better. I really don't know if this topic is making much headway though, I don't think anyone is gonna convince anyone else of anything here.

But they aren't being built up. They are confronted almost immediately. Boo on the other hand was built up. Even after Buu's name is introduced, we don't see him for a while and the heroes have to fight numerous bad guys and even one of the heroes turns. Buu may not have been swept away but he constantly changed because Toriyama was making it up as he went. The transformations didn't really make much sense, and Toriyama kept changing the protagonists. There it's far more apparent that he didn't have much clue where he wanted to go with the story and so the ending isn't as cathartic. The biggest moment of catharsis has nothing to do with Buu, it was Vegeta making peace with himself and Goku.

If you want to end the conversation, fine, though I don't think it's value is limited to one convincing the other.