RandomGuy96 wrote:Talking about Super.
No point in pretending Z never happened. If you can use EoZ to try and prove a point, then we can use what takes place on Namek. Or when he came to Earth in a relaxed state in his Mecha state. Both indicate a relaxed Freeza isn't at full-power.
Totally different situations. In that situation, not only is Krillin clearly stammering and unsure as he says it, but he's immediately contradicted by Piccolo. Here, we're never given any reason not to believe him.
Piccolo only said "That'd be nice, but" and never says anything further. Sending the kids into the rosat only became a thing when Boo arrived on the lookout.
Yes, it is. Krillin is saying that things will be fine as long as Buu is there. Meaning he can handle Freeza. You can argue all you want about how correct he is, but if you seriously can't admit that he's saying that, then there's no point to this conversation.
You're choosing to believe the statement has to have one meaning when it doesn't. Krillin saying he guess it's alright because they have Boo could mean he's simply the most capable person of fighting Freeza. He isn't even entirely sure if not having Goku and Vegeta is alright. This is the same saga where it's stated that Base Gohan is superior to Piccolo after we learn that Freeza is superior to Base Goku in the previous saga. Things are all over the place in Super. Your POV certainly isn't the
only answer, either.
No, you're just making stuff up again. He explicitly says that he can't access his true power. He doesn't say "I can't put out my full power, actually just kidding I can, I can do that with just Super Saiyan now, even though I never mentioned this before and will never mention it again".
Gohan questions how long his body will last, which was never an issue when he went Super Saiyan. It's obvious it worked differently this time around. Even when he was enraged, he was only Super Saiyan.
Where in any of this do you get the impression that he's as strong as he was at the end of the Buu arc? Especially after you admitted Buu was superior to him? Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. Super Saiyan Gohan is not as strong as Ultimate Gohan. I shouldn't even need to explain this.
Read between the lines. Gohan realizes that he
can't become Ultimate because of his lack of training, implying he went into the battle under the impression that he could draw out his full-power. Once it became clear that he couldn't draw out his full-power, he had no choice but to become Super Saiyan. So Gohan never thought his Ultimate state was out of the question when he admitted he couldn't beat Freeza.
There's nothing supporting that assertion at all.
Gohan realizing that his lack of training prevented him from becoming Ultimate well after admitting Freeza was superior says otherwise.
In fact the available evidence from the tournament arc and the EOZ suggests that even fourth form Freeza wouldn't surpass Ultimate Gohan.
Gohan seems to think otherwise, or his lack of training preventing him from becoming Ultimate wouldn't have been mentioned well into the battle with Tagoma.
A weakened Frost is still stronger than the base saiyans (Vegeta has to go SS to beat him), yet not dimensions above Piccolo, who is still weaker than Buu per episode 30, probably by a lot if we use common sense. The Uub epilogue still happens and that depicts a Pure Buu level fighter as being stronger than Goku's base form, even though now Goku's base form is strong enough to smack around post-training 4th form Freeza.
Goku never smacked Freeza around in Super. Perhaps you're referring to the RoF movie? Also, the Oob epilogue could be much different considering Pan was born a lot earlier. We don't know how Super is going to handle the EoZ, so let's not pretend like this is a fact. Base Goku and Vegeta were way above their highest levels in Z, so they're most definitely above Kid Boo, nevermind Mr. Boo.
That's assuming he even "had" to power up, rather than that he was just flaring his aura/flexing because he was mad or wanted to show off. In that very same arc, we have Gohan and Krillin 'powering up' to fight Recoome, even though we know for a fact that they can access their full power without doing that.
Based on what? Gohan and Krillin had to power-up to attack those henchmen at the beginning of Namek. They powered-up to fight Gurd and stayed at that state for the duration of battle.
Basic story structure is at work here. Quoting the same logic Kaboom used
Yeah, like Freeza being superior to Gohan in his Ultimate state.
You simply lack any evidence for your assertion.
But I do know Gohan said Freeza was beyond him well before he realized he couldn't become Ultimate.
He already acknowledges before they even enter the battle that he's not even sure if he can turn Super Saiyan, and Krillin considers him inferior to Mr. Buu in that same scene.
That's Super Saiyan. Gohan realized he couldn't draw out his full-power due to a lack of training during the fight with Tagoma. And yeah, considering Gohan last powered-up to Ultimate to save the same Boo in question, Krillin's word overrides everything.
Being as strong as "Ultimate" Gohan was out of the question from the beginning. Next.
If it was out of the question from the beginning, why did he only realize this well after the fight began? Because it
obviously wasn't out of the question--or it would've never been mentioned at all.
It's pretty funny how you think an indirect statement on Boo confirms Mr. Boo>Freeza, yet Gohan coming to the realization that he'll have to resort to Super Saiyan now that he's unable to draw out his full-power isn't saying Freeza>Ultimate. You're just picking and choosing.
No it doesn't, you're using circular logic. "He never powered up, therefore he was suppressed", without giving a reason why he needed to power up to begin with rather than being at full power the whole time.
Freeza needing to power-up to show the extent of his power goes all the way back to the Namek, only to be reiterated when Mecha Freeza arrives on Earth. In other words, Freeza has to power-up to reach full-power. This is actually shown and requires no assumption. The idea of him being at full-power for no reason has 0 merit.
Why is he walking around at a specific level way above everyone else yet way below his supposed 'max', which is never seen and never implied to exist anywhere? From both an in and out of universe view, what the heck is the point of that? The problem with trying to use the Namek arc as support is that, when Freeza's power level changed, we were explicitly told so. There's nothing like that here.
What you're not understanding is that there was no reason for it to happen here. He never fought in the form. He just shot finger beams at Gohan and nothing more. There was never a reason for him to change his power because his superiority was already intact.
BTW: on Namek, even before Freeza powered up, he was heavily implied to be above Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta, who we know from V-Jump to have battle powers of 200,000, 75,000, and 250,000 respectively. So even if we assumed that this is working exactly like the Namek arc, and that he was suppressed the whole time, he still wouldn't be suppressed by that much. Maybe around half of his full strength.
Doesn't matter to what extent he was suppressed. The point was he wasn't exerting himself to the point where he was at full-power. Krillin never imagined his power was that high, so it wasn't just a small power-up.
[Piccolo's reaction to Freeza's ki is clearly more extreme than his reaction to the others: "outrageously large ki" + "a monster" vs "three huge ki"; also note that his immediate reaction isn't "oh wow, this supposed monster has ki even lower than that of Gohan, we're fine"].
This doesn't help you. It just shows that Freeza already had a Chi that made the others look minuscule, only to raise it even higher when he began to power-up.
When does he ever indicate that he can't? Everyone else who can change their power level can. Including Freeza himself in his fourth form. It seems that "powering up" is optional to begin with, as Goku is able to change his power level without a power-up yet still does so against Nappa.
Freeza isn't Goku. Also, Freeza powered-up quite a few times in his final form. This was noted many times.
I don't need to. It's common sense. "If a character says something, and you want to introduce doubt about it, then the burden of proof is on you". Where's the evidence that he was suppressed?
Where was it said that Freeza was at full-power? Nowhere. When did Freeza power-up? Nowhere. When did Freeza actually fight? Never. What was Freeza doing? Sitting on his chair like he was on Namek the entire time. We see how Freeza looks when he goes to full-power the last time he fought. This never happened in Super, so there's no reason to assume he was at full-power for no reason.
Too bad it does. It's nearly an identical situation actually.
It really isn't. "I guess it's alright" makes it clear that he's uncertain if they're really alright. Meanwhile, Gohan realizing that his lack of training prevented him from unleashing his full-power is something he realized when fighting Tagoma. That means he wasn't' aware this ability was gone beforehand.
He does it as late as the JSAT special. Anyway, this is irrelevant. How often he does it doesn't change the fact that he does it.
He powered-up to Super Saiyan, actually.
Freeza was beyond anything he was capable of because he lost his Ultimate state and was reduced to Super Saiyan.
Gohan didn't realize his Ultimate state was gone until he fought with Tagoma. Since Gohan didn't realize this before the battle, it means Freeza is beyond anything Gohan's capable of regardless. Super Saiyan, Ultimate, whatever. Freeza is above it.
He was never said to be above Buu.
Yet the last time Gohan fought he was clearly above Boo. It wasn't revealed that Gohan wasn't keeping up with his training until
after Krillin already made his statement. That Boo statement means absolutely nothing.
The only statement we have indirectly comparing them says the opposite, that he wouldn't have been a problem if Buu was there.
An indirect statement that Krillin is unsure of. It isn't a solid indication of anything. No one of them were aware that Gohan wasn't training.
There's also Gotenks' statement that he can beat down Freeza with SS, which again is never contradicted.
No one was relieved because Gotenks was also weaker than Freeza.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
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