Should it be any wonder that Goku is still top dog?

[Zephyr]

I was thinking about all of the cheap power shortcuts available to the characters throughout the series, and Goku has abused the most by far.

His four human buddies were following in his footsteps for a while: training with [insert animal here] Hermits, Karin, Kami/Popo, and Kaio. Only they skipped the Super God Water and didn't master Kaioken. Krillin also skipped Kaio entirely, but got the Namekian Elder's power up to compensate. After Kaio, though, they didn't keep training via Goku's means. They didn't take advantage of the high tech gravity chambers, and only Piccolo bothered with the RoSaT. Only Goku got 7 years of training in the afterlife with dead guys (and likely to some extent under Dai Kaio), and none of them are bothering with Whis.

His Saiyan buddies follow a similar trend, it seems. They all abuse zenkais with him in order to get to Super Saiyan. Then they use the RoSaT, and eventually master Super Saiyan, and unlock Super Saiyan 2. Only, they missed out on 7 years of training in the afterlife/heaven (with access to Dai Kaio's training more than likely), and didn't get the memo about Super Saiyan 3. They both got some magical powerups (Vegeta via Babidi, Gohan via Elder Kaioshin) to 'keep up', but then skipped out on having the Super Saiyan God ritual performed on themselves. Vegeta's the only one to bother continuing to train with Goku and abuse the racial advantages that he has access to, but is lef tin the dust once again due to things Goku learned that Vegeta didn't.

Goku got the most of both plates, and everyone in both camps is now behind him. Still.

There's a lot that all of them could be doing, but they just aren't bothering to do. Many don't seem to care that much about keeping up (Gohan and Krillin became family men), and his biggest rivals at some point all display some odd sort of pride preventing them from wanting to abuse as many powerups as Goku does (Tenshinhan not using the RoSaT, Vegeta not using the ritual, Piccolo not training with Whis). There's also the apparent revulsion these people have for training in groups together, when from what I've seen indicates that training with stronger people makes you stronger.

I feel like even Yamcha and Tenshinhan could, while not catching right up to Goku, close a very reasonable portion of the gap, if the motivation was there, and this odd sense of pride wasn't on the line. Even without race-exclusive powerups (which could hypothetically be compensated for with powerups and training methods Goku hasn't abused yet; I mean just look at how many tiers 18 and Gohan were able to rocket through with cybernetics and the Elder Kaioshin powerup...imagine the two working in tandem).

Does the Namekian Grand Elder exist in the afterlife? I don't see why not. Could Goku track him down eventually if he wanted to? I don't see why not. Would Goku revel in the opportunity to power all of his friends up so they could potentially be worthy opponents again? I don't see why not. There's a free powerup. Could they all sit still for the Elder Kaioshin ritual on top of that? I don't see why not. Could Bulma figure out what Gero did to #17 and #18 and do that to the non-Goku fighters (hell, even Goku himself)? I don't see why not. Could Goku spend a little bit of time to team up with Kaio to teach everyone the Kaioken? I don't see why not.

Granted, there are a few that Goku himself isn't using (cybernetic enhancements, Namekian Elder's powerup, Babidi's powerup, and Elder Kaioshin' powerup), but he seems to go for them a lot more than other people are willing to. In a way, Goku is being the most proactive and responsible fighter, which contrasts with his nature as one of the most reckless fighters.

Don't know what real point I'm trying to make with all of this, just thought it was neat.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Goku will always be head and shoulders above everyone else. He is very iconic, even more so in Japan, when people think of Dragon Ball they think of Goku, and because TOEI are a business they will always capitalize on that.

[Kuririn Fan]

Of course not, Son Goku's been the main character since day 1/ chapter 1/ episode 1.
He IS Dragon Ball.
I was never pissed that he got all the power-ups, transformations etc. He's the protagonist, that's what they do.

[sintzu]

He is very iconic, even more so in Japan, when people think of Dragon Ball they think of Goku, and because TOEI are a business they will always capitalize on that.

Of course not, Son Goku's been the main character since day 1/ chapter 1/ episode 1.
He IS Dragon Ball.

That's true but it's not the only reason, Goku is as strong as he is because he's a fighting genius, he learns from his enemies and mistakes, he'll train under anyone and do any kind of training to get strong which is why Goku is so likable, he has to earn his strength and accomplishments, they're not just handed to him because he's the main character.

But even though he's the main character and is usually the strongest of the group, he can still be defeated and he doesn't have an aura that prevents that just because he's the main character.

On the other hand you have shows like One Piece where the main character (Luffy) is the strongest because he's the main character, there's no in universe reason to why he's so strong and he can beat anyone and he'll never or very rarely lose and the same goes for fairy tail.

[Kuririn Fan]

Goku is as strong as he is because he's a fighting genius.

So true, a lot of people don't seem to understand that.

[apex_pretador]

on another forum, in a vegeta vs goku debate, I wrote:

No matter how hard he tries, no matter how dedicated to his own training he may be, no matter what he does. he will NEVER be able to outdo goku's training, Goku's dedication, goku's hard work because while he trains to SURPASS, goku trains to IMPROVE. There is a reason he was never able to go super saiyan 3. Super Saiyan and SS2 can be achieved by extreme emotional change and combining them with training, but super saiyan 3 can ONLY be achieved by training as hard as possible, to the true limits - which he was never able to do, even after many , many years after goku did it

[sintzu]

Saiyan 3 can ONLY be achieved by training as hard as possible, to the true limits - which he was never able to do, even after many , many years after goku did it.

If he was able to reach Ssjg level of power on his own which was something Goku didn't do then he can easily go Ssj3 if he wants.

[ekrolo2]

Saiyan 3 can ONLY be achieved by training as hard as possible, to the true limits - which he was never able to do, even after many , many years after goku did it.

If he was able to reach Ssjg level of power on his own which was something Goku didn't do then he can easily go Ssj3 if he wants.

I didn't think it was possible but somehow you managed to make Vegeta's vast improvement in power even more stupid by pointing this out.

[sintzu]

I didn't think it was possible but somehow you managed to make Vegeta's vast improvement in power even more stupid by pointing this out.

How ? If he's able to use Ssjb, doesn't that mean he can automatically use Ssj3 due to it being a lower form ?

In order to reach Ssjg on his own, his training would've had to be harder than what Goku did to reach 3 which means he reached 3 on the way to ssjg.

Take an RPG game for example, if you go from being able to beat level 1 enemies to level 5 enemies, won't that mean you could beat level 3 enemies as well ?

[Jaetinh]

He is very iconic, even more so in Japan, when people think of Dragon Ball they think of Goku, and because TOEI are a business they will always capitalize on that.

Of course not, Son Goku's been the main character since day 1/ chapter 1/ episode 1.
He IS Dragon Ball.

That's true but it's not the only reason, Goku is as strong as he is because he's a fighting genius, he learns from his enemies and mistakes, he'll train under anyone and do any kind of training to get strong which is why Goku is so likable, he has to earn his strength and accomplishments, they're not just handed to him because he's the main character.

But even though he's the main character and is usually the strongest of the group, he can still be defeated and he doesn't have an aura that prevents that just because he's the main character.

On the other hand you have shows like One Piece where the main character (Luffy) is the strongest because he's the main character, there's no in universe reason to why he's so strong and he can beat anyone and he'll never or very rarely lose and the same goes for fairy tail.

Yes there are, they're basically the same reasons you listed for Goku dude.

[sintzu]

Yes there are, they're basically the same reasons you listed for Goku dude.

I just finished Water 7 and up till that point him and his crew didn't train once but each villain they defeated was stronger than the one before, especially CP9.

How are they getting stronger ? are they training off screen with someone ?

Based on what I read, the only time they trained was after you know who died before the time skip so they defeat even more powerful enemies without lifting a finger.

How is that the same as what the Z fighters go through ? they go through hell to get stronger and even after everything they do they're lucky if they just survive their battles let alone win.

But the straw hats who don't lift a finger beat up everyone they come across no matter how strong they are just because they're the main characters.

[apex_pretador]

I didn't think it was possible but somehow you managed to make Vegeta's vast improvement in power even more stupid by pointing this out.

How ? If he's able to use Ssjb, doesn't that mean he can automatically use Ssj3 due to it being a lower form ?

In order to reach Ssjg on his own, his training would've had to be harder than what Goku did to reach 3 which means he reached 3 on the way to ssjg.

Take an RPG game for example, if you go from being able to beat level 1 enemies to level 5 enemies, won't that mean you could beat level 3 enemies as well ?

Super saiyan 3 is not required to reach super saiyan Blue.
It is possible to reach SSB without reaching SS3 , it is not like an "intermediate" level. See how gohan reached SSFP without reaching grade 2 or grade 3.

[ther2view]

There is another big reason for Goku being so strong: He LOVES fighting. All the Dragon Ball characters that fight do so for various reasons: Kuririn fought at first to find a girlfriend and to get back at bullies, Yamcha fought to try and best Goku, Gohan fought to protect his friends and family, Vegeta fights for pride, and Ike fights for his friends. While some you could argue one way or the other, it is obvious that Goku LOVES fighting and everything that goes with it. The best example to me is to compare Gohan and Goku. If you compared 11 year old Gohan and 11 year old Goku it's obvious that Gohan is much stronger. All throughout his younger life it was quite plain that Gohan was naturally strong, while Goku was called naturally weak by Raditz, Vegeta, and even his own father. But the reason Goku did end up surpassing Gohan significantly is because Goku kept going at it. When Kuririn married 18 he stopped fighting because he got what he wanted. When the earth was saved Gohan stopped fighting. When it was obvious that Goku had FAR surpassed him Yamcha stopped fighting. But Goku never stopped fighting or training because that's what he enjoys. It's the same reason Vegeta is always at the very least right behind Goku. His reason to fight is his Saiyan pride, which makes him refuse to accept Goku being stronger with him, so he fights on.

Well, that's my in-universe explanation. Obviously the real reason is that Goku IS Dragon Ball, and Dragon Ball makes money.

[sintzu]

It is possible to reach SSB without reaching SS3 , it is not like an "intermediate" level. See how gohan reached SSFP without reaching grade 2 or grade 3.

If Gohan was strong enough to use Ssj2, wouldn't that mean he could use the other 2 forms if he wanted to ? nothing was ever said about it but I personally don't see why he wouldn't be able to if he wanted.

In order to use Ssjb, the Saiyan has to be extremely strong so if said Saiyan can use it, wouldn't that mean he's strong enough to use something below it like Ssj3 even if he didn't use it before ?

[Jaetinh]

Yes there are, they're basically the same reasons you listed for Goku dude.

I just finished Water 7 and up till that point him and his crew didn't train once but each villain they defeated was stronger than the one before, especially CP9.

How are they getting stronger ? are they training off screen with someone ?

Based on what I read, the only time they trained was after you know who died before the time skip so they defeat even more powerful enemies without lifting a finger.

How is that the same as what the Z fighters go through ? they go through hell to get stronger and even after everything they do they're lucky if they just survive their battles let alone win.

But the straw hats who don't lift a finger beat up everyone they come across no matter how strong they are just because they're the main characters.

Luffy's been training for survival since he was like 3,4 years when his grandpa threw him into bottomless pits and jungles, he's been training with two other geniuses (Sabo and Ace) since they were small (they trained against deadly beasts and risked their lifes by doing so at the age of 7-10). Luffy trained like hell until be turned 17 and then he started his journey. That's why Luffy's so strong at the beginning of One Piece, he obviously also got stronger by fighting and beating other strong opponents (lost against Sir Crocodile and learned from his mistakes). Let's not forget he's the son of the most wanted man in the world and the grandson of the strongest Marine during his prime, he's got the genes. So training, fighting, learning from mistakes/opponents and being a fighting genius, aren't those the reasons you listed for Goku?

[Draconic]

Saiyan 3 can ONLY be achieved by training as hard as possible, to the true limits - which he was never able to do, even after many , many years after goku did it.

If he was able to reach Ssjg level of power on his own which was something Goku didn't do then he can easily go Ssj3 if he wants.

Well, he was trained by Whis when he reached God powers. A lot of people seem to forget that.

[apex_pretador]

There is another big reason for Goku being so strong: He LOVES fighting. All the Dragon Ball characters that fight do so for various reasons: Kuririn fought at first to find a girlfriend and to get back at bullies, Yamcha fought to try and best Goku, Gohan fought to protect his friends and family, Vegeta fights for pride, and Ike fights for his friends. While some you could argue one way or the other, it is obvious that Goku LOVES fighting and everything that goes with it. The best example to me is to compare Gohan and Goku. If you compared 11 year old Gohan and 11 year old Goku it's obvious that Gohan is much stronger. All throughout his younger life it was quite plain that Gohan was naturally strong, while Goku was called naturally weak by Raditz, Vegeta, and even his own father. But the reason Goku did end up surpassing Gohan significantly is because Goku kept going at it. When Kuririn married 18 he stopped fighting because he got what he wanted. When the earth was saved Gohan stopped fighting. When it was obvious that Goku had FAR surpassed him Yamcha stopped fighting. But Goku never stopped fighting or training because that's what he enjoys. It's the same reason Vegeta is always at the very least right behind Goku. His reason to fight is his Saiyan pride, which makes him refuse to accept Goku being stronger with him, so he fights on.

Well, that's my in-universe explanation. Obviously the real reason is that Goku IS Dragon Ball, and Dragon Ball makes money.

good post.
However, you forgot piccolo and Tien still train.

Tien trains to surpass goku - a goal which he can never achieve
Piccolo trains because he's piccolo

[Lord Beerus]

Yes there are, they're basically the same reasons you listed for Goku dude.

I just finished Water 7 and up till that point him and his crew didn't train once but each villain they defeated was stronger than the one before, especially CP9.

How are they getting stronger ? are they training off screen with someone ?

Based on what I read, the only time they trained was after you know who died before the time skip so they defeat even more powerful enemies without lifting a finger.

How is that the same as what the Z fighters go through ? they go through hell to get stronger and even after everything they do they're lucky if they just survive their battles let alone win.

But the straw hats who don't lift a finger beat up everyone they come across no matter how strong they are just because they're the main characters.

The Straw Hat Crew have an insane amount of Plot Armour.

[ekrolo2]

Yes there are, they're basically the same reasons you listed for Goku dude.

I just finished Water 7 and up till that point him and his crew didn't train once but each villain they defeated was stronger than the one before, especially CP9.

How are they getting stronger ? are they training off screen with someone ?

Based on what I read, the only time they trained was after you know who died before the time skip so they defeat even more powerful enemies without lifting a finger.

How is that the same as what the Z fighters go through ? they go through hell to get stronger and even after everything they do they're lucky if they just survive their battles let alone win.

But the straw hats who don't lift a finger beat up everyone they come across no matter how strong they are just because they're the main characters.

I'm amazed you didn't mention the fact Luffy randomly develops Gear Second AND Third right the fuck out of nowhere with absolutely no explanation. One Piece does a lot of things really, really well that I'd love for future Shonen to learn from, but good character progression is NOT one of them.

[Bansho64]

I'm not surprised Goku is the strongest, but I am appalled that there's no hope for the rest of the cast besides Vegeta. Everyone's been left in the dust. I thought that maybe Gohan and Kuririn might be able to do something but it seems like all of that is thrown out the window. Oh well, atleast we have past arcs to reminisce about