Should it be any wonder that Goku is still top dog?

[sintzu]

I'm amazed you didn't mention the fact Luffy randomly develops Gear Second AND Third right the fuck out of nowhere with absolutely no explanation.

One Piece does a lot of things really, really well that I'd love for future Shonen to learn from, but good character progression is NOT one of them.

I forgot about Gear 2nd but the 3rd one as well ? it's worse than I thought.

It's currently my 2nd favorite anime and it's great at world building but it needs A LOT of work with character building.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm not surprised Goku is the strongest, but I am appalled that there's no hope for the rest of the cast besides Vegeta. Everyone's been left in the dust. I thought that maybe Gohan and Kuririn might be able to do something but it seems like all of that is thrown out the window. Oh well, atleast we have past arcs to reminisce about

Once different grades of Super Saiyan were introduced, it was pretty much game over for anyone that is not a Saiyan among the main cast. For what it's worth, there is one future episode title with teases the concept of superhuman water. So perhaps all is not lost for the rest of the cast.

[ekrolo2]

I'm not surprised Goku is the strongest, but I am appalled that there's no hope for the rest of the cast besides Vegeta. Everyone's been left in the dust. I thought that maybe Gohan and Kuririn might be able to do something but it seems like all of that is thrown out the window. Oh well, atleast we have past arcs to reminisce about

Once different grades of Super Saiyan were introduced, it was pretty much game over for anyone that is not a Saiyan among the main cast. For what it's worth, there is one future episode title with teases the concept of superhuman water. So perhaps all is not lost for the rest of the cast.

Just how the Namekian book of legends panned out

[Lord Beerus]

I'm not surprised Goku is the strongest, but I am appalled that there's no hope for the rest of the cast besides Vegeta. Everyone's been left in the dust. I thought that maybe Gohan and Kuririn might be able to do something but it seems like all of that is thrown out the window. Oh well, atleast we have past arcs to reminisce about

Once different grades of Super Saiyan were introduced, it was pretty much game over for anyone that is not a Saiyan among the main cast. For what it's worth, there is one future episode title with teases the concept of superhuman water. So perhaps all is not lost for the rest of the cast.

Just how the Namekian book of legends panned out

Give it time, dammit.

[ther2view]

There is another big reason for Goku being so strong: He LOVES fighting. All the Dragon Ball characters that fight do so for various reasons: Kuririn fought at first to find a girlfriend and to get back at bullies, Yamcha fought to try and best Goku, Gohan fought to protect his friends and family, Vegeta fights for pride, and Ike fights for his friends. While some you could argue one way or the other, it is obvious that Goku LOVES fighting and everything that goes with it. The best example to me is to compare Gohan and Goku. If you compared 11 year old Gohan and 11 year old Goku it's obvious that Gohan is much stronger. All throughout his younger life it was quite plain that Gohan was naturally strong, while Goku was called naturally weak by Raditz, Vegeta, and even his own father. But the reason Goku did end up surpassing Gohan significantly is because Goku kept going at it. When Kuririn married 18 he stopped fighting because he got what he wanted. When the earth was saved Gohan stopped fighting. When it was obvious that Goku had FAR surpassed him Yamcha stopped fighting. But Goku never stopped fighting or training because that's what he enjoys. It's the same reason Vegeta is always at the very least right behind Goku. His reason to fight is his Saiyan pride, which makes him refuse to accept Goku being stronger with him, so he fights on.

Well, that's my in-universe explanation. Obviously the real reason is that Goku IS Dragon Ball, and Dragon Ball makes money.

good post.
However, you forgot piccolo and Tien still train.

Tien trains to surpass goku - a goal which he can never achieve
Piccolo trains because he's piccolo

True, though you could argue whether or not the two really do keep training. We usually just see Piccolo just meditating or something like that. Most we've seen lately is him training Gohan again in Super. And Tenshinhan... well, we hardly see him at all. And again, a lot of times he's just meditating or doing light training. It's obvious the majority of the fighters, even the retired ones, still keep practicing a little, if only as exercise. Except Gohan, and that was shown to be bad.

Though even assuming Tenshinhan and Piccolo are still putting their all into their training, that's when it comes to the unfortunate fact that Saiyan biology trumps Earthling and Namekian. I mean, how do you keep up with fighters with such a large Exp boost when they get beat up?

Though credit to Piccolo and Tenshinhan. They manage to still be pretty badass, even when Goku and Vegeta surpass them.

[Fionordequester]

Though even assuming Tenshinhan and Piccolo are still putting their all into their training, that's when it comes to the unfortunate fact that Saiyan biology trumps Earthling and Namekian. I mean, how do you keep up with fighters with such a large Exp boost when they get beat up?

Hold on one stinkin' moment...wasn't that what the fight with Hit was all about? Him beating up opponents that were far stronger than him with his unique techniques? I could very easily see the rest of the cast learning tricks like that.

[dbzfan7]

Mr. Satan is top dog. He backhands Gohan like the bitch he is. He becomes Super Saiyan Satan and beats up Beerus, who's name he forgot because he was a chump. Then he casually punches Goku so hard, he defy's physics, and has his boots turn into sandals on his way over the buildings. Satan is top dog.

[ther2view]

Though even assuming Tenshinhan and Piccolo are still putting their all into their training, that's when it comes to the unfortunate fact that Saiyan biology trumps Earthling and Namekian. I mean, how do you keep up with fighters with such a large Exp boost when they get beat up?

Hold on one stinkin' moment...wasn't that what the fight with Hit was all about? Him beating up opponents that were far stronger than him with his unique techniques? I could very easily see the rest of the cast learning tricks like that.

Excellent point. And characters like Tenshinhan and Piccolo who keep training could, in theory, could come up with techniques to defeat their opponents. It is, after all, one of the driving themes of the entire franchise, making yourself better to overcome obstacles. That's when it really does fall back into Goku being the main character, so the focus being on him means he has to outshine basically all his friends. In universe there may be potential for these side characters, but out of universe...

Now that being said, and a little off topic, if they wanted to shine a light on the other characters (and potentially make more money on Heroes and other things), they could totally create a saga in Super where Goku and Vegeta disappear into another universe so the rest of the gang have to take up the mantle to find and potentially rescue them. It'd really give characters like Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Yamcha, Gohan, and of course Kuririn to really shine again, and maybe even come up with some new tricks and such to get stronger.

[Kuririn Fan]

Goku loves to fight, yes, but humans and Piccolo gave up because they're not Saiyans.
It is extraordinarily obnoxious that a series that gives the message of always continuing to push yourself has so many characters who have to shrug and say, "Well, it doesn't matter what I do. I'll never be good enough because I didn't win the genetic lottery.

[apex_pretador]

good post.
However, you forgot piccolo and Tien still train.

Tien trains to surpass goku - a goal which he can never achieve
Piccolo trains because he's piccolo

True, though you could argue whether or not the two really do keep training. We usually just see Piccolo just meditating or something like that. Most we've seen lately is him training Gohan again in Super. And Tenshinhan... well, we hardly see him at all. And again, a lot of times he's just meditating or doing light training. It's obvious the majority of the fighters, even the retired ones, still keep practicing a little, if only as exercise. Except Gohan, and that was shown to be bad.

Though even assuming Tenshinhan and Piccolo are still putting their all into their training, that's when it comes to the unfortunate fact that Saiyan biology trumps Earthling and Namekian. I mean, how do you keep up with fighters with such a large Exp boost when they get beat up?

Though credit to Piccolo and Tenshinhan. They manage to still be pretty badass, even when Goku and Vegeta surpass them.

Meditating is the way piccolo always trains. He was trainng that way since the very beginning of the series. He only does sparring when he is training with someone else. AT himself confirmed that he , goku , vegeta always train.

Yes true we hardly see tenshinhan at all and it is not confirmed that he trains or not, but it is likely IMO.

Though even assuming Tenshinhan and Piccolo are still putting their all into their training, that's when it comes to the unfortunate fact that Saiyan biology trumps Earthling and Namekian. I mean, how do you keep up with fighters with such a large Exp boost when they get beat up?

Hold on one stinkin' moment...wasn't that what the fight with Hit was all about? Him beating up opponents that were far stronger than him with his unique techniques? I could very easily see the rest of the cast learning tricks like that.

Hit is same like saiyans - continues to get powerful with fighting.

Piccolo also managed to put up an awesome fight (2nd best anime fight of tourney) despite a huge power disadvantage. We saw what Tien did to cell and what krillin did to Freeza despite huge power disadvantages.

Now that being said, and a little off topic, if they wanted to shine a light on the other characters (and potentially make more money on Heroes and other things), they could totally create a saga in Super where Goku and Vegeta disappear into another universe so the rest of the gang have to take up the mantle to find and potentially rescue them. It'd really give characters like Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Yamcha, Gohan, and of course Kuririn to really shine again, and maybe even come up with some new tricks and such to get stronger.

That's what I also want. Goku & Vegeta go to fight a universal threat in U5 or U8 with beerus etc, and a new threat appears on U7.
Add buu too here and gotenks

Goku loves to fight, yes, but humans and Piccolo gave up because they're not Saiyans.
It is extraordinarily obnoxious that a series that gives the message of always continuing to push yourself has so many characters who have to shrug and say, "Well, it doesn't matter what I do. I'll never be good enough because I didn't win the genetic lottery.

lol

Roshi - Gave up in 22nd TB
Yamcha - Gives up after seeing goku defeat piccolo daimao
Krillin - Never had a sort of competition
Chiaotzu - lol
Tenshinhan - Gave up after seeing how much piccolo & vegeta powered up in android training

Piccolo - Gave up probably after Cell Games, definitely gave up after buu arc.

[ABED]

It is extraordinarily obnoxious that a series that gives the message of always continuing to push yourself has so many characters who have to shrug and say, "Well, it doesn't matter what I do. I'll never be good enough because I didn't win the genetic lottery.

Goku did have a genetic advantage but he didn't just sit around on his butt hoping to get stronger. He was constantly pushing himself. Fighting Namekians also have a genetic advantage. And Tenshinhan didn't give up. He still pushes himself to be his best regardless of whether he is in the running to be the strongest or not.

the focus being on him means he has to outshine basically all his friends. In universe there may be potential for these side characters

Goku always outshined his friends as has pretty much every main character. A well used side character doesn't have to outshine the main hero.

[z_cherub]

Saiyan 3 can ONLY be achieved by training as hard as possible, to the true limits - which he was never able to do, even after many , many years after goku did it.

If he was able to reach Ssjg level of power on his own which was something Goku didn't do then he can easily go Ssj3 if he wants.

Apples/oranges, IMO. Goku had Vegeta handily beat as far as normal training/SSJ level ups. When they both branched out and started training to master God Ki, it levelled the playing field some as they were both new to it. Using standard explosive SSJ ki, Goku can still go SSJ3 (with all its faults) and Vegeta cannot. Although there is no point as the calm God ki used for SSJ Blue renders SSJ3 more useless than before.

[Kuririn Fan]

Goku did have a genetic advantage but he didn't just sit around on his butt hoping to get stronger.

What? All humans trained, they didn't sit on their butt. But they don't get zenkais and transformations and all that bullshit.

[ABED]

Goku did have a genetic advantage but he didn't just sit around on his butt hoping to get stronger.

What? All humans trained, they didn't sit on their butt. But they don't get zenkais and transformations and all that bullshit.

He trained harder and smarter, and it wouldn't matter anyways, just like in life, you can be plenty lucky, but if you don't do anything with it, the luck won't matter.

[ekrolo2]

Goku did have a genetic advantage but he didn't just sit around on his butt hoping to get stronger.

What? All humans trained, they didn't sit on their butt. But they don't get zenkais and transformations and all that bullshit.

He trained harder and smarter.

Nah it's genetics. Even if the human cracked down with the same regimen as him they'd still amount to nothing.

[ABED]

Nah it's genetics. Even if the human cracked down with the same regimen as him they'd still amount to nothing.

And if he did nothing with that, if he didn't train as hard and smart as he does, he wouldn't make those gains. Why do i get the feeling that your "genetics and luck" argument doesn't stop with Dragon Ball?

And what's with this "if you're not first, your last" mentality? Tenshinhan saved Goku's life even late into the Buu arc. He ain't top dog, but his deed had value.

[Kuririn Fan]

Nah it's genetics. Even if the human cracked down with the same regimen as him they'd still amount to nothing.

And if he did nothing with that, if he didn't train as hard and smart as he does, he wouldn't make those gains. Why do i get the feeling that your "genetics and luck" argument doesn't stop with Dragon Ball?

And what's with this "if you're not first, your last" mentality? Tenshinhan saved Goku's life even late into the Buu arc. He ain't top dog, but his deed had value.

He's a Saiyan, it's easy for him, with all those bullshit explanations.

[ekrolo2]

Nah it's genetics. Even if the human cracked down with the same regimen as him they'd still amount to nothing.

And if he did nothing with that, if he didn't train as hard and smart as he does, he wouldn't make those gains. Why do i get the feeling that your "genetics and luck" argument doesn't stop with Dragon Ball?

And what's with this "if you're not first, your last" mentality? Tenshinhan saved Goku's life even late into the Buu arc. He ain't top dog, but his deed had value.

I never said Goku's training didn't play a part in his strength gains, the fact he completely overshadows every other member of his species who were all about putting people into classes with no sense of self-improvement is proof of this. But to say the humans only fell by the wayside since they didn't train as hard or smart as Goku ignores the fact he is genetically designed for combat, making him a superior being in this regard to the humans.

Tenshinhan trained on King Kai's planet just as Goku, even longer actually and it amounted to precisely.... jack shit.

[ABED]

I never said Goku's training didn't play a part in his strength gains, the fact he completely overshadows every other member of his species who were all about putting people into classes with no sense of self-improvement is proof of this. But to say the humans only fell by the wayside since they didn't train as hard or smart as Goku ignores the fact he is genetically designed for combat, making him a superior being in this regard to the humans.

Tenshinhan trained on King Kai's planet just as Goku, even longer actually and it amounted to precisely.... jack shit.

I didn't say they only fell by the wayside because of that. It was his genetics AND his bravery, training, hard work, and battle intelligence that made him the best. I don't know how many times I have to say it, if he had done nothing else and relied on his genes, he wouldn't have made the gains he did.

Tenshinhan did gain, just not as much because while Tenshinhan was training with Kaio-sama, Goku had trained in 100x gravity. In the three year stretch to train for the Cyborgs, instead of training with people stronger than him, he trained on his own with Chaozu. The humans don't have to be in the same league as the Saiyans to have value.

He's a Saiyan, it's easy for him, with all those bullshit explanations.

Yes, his gains were SO easy. He didn't have to work for any of it. Those zenkais seem like cheats, but he took major beatings to get them. He risked his life so many times. I would hardly call it easy. Even the water that gave him the strength to battle Piccolo Daimao nearly killed him, and he did it with no guarantees.

[Zephyr]

while Tenshinhan was training with Kaio-sama, Goku had trained in 100x gravity. In the three year stretch to train for the Cyborgs, instead of training with people stronger than him, he trained on his own with Chaozu.

If this were the same Tenshinhan as in previous arcs, he would have trained in 100x gravity during the 3 years before the Artificial Humans, and then train in the Room of Spirit and Time at some point after the Saiyans did. He followed in Goku's footsteps when it came to Karin, Kami, and Kaio, I don't understand why he stopped there. Mastering Kaioken also would have helped. I would have expected Tenshinhan of all people to have been able to do that. And if he did do that, I think that he could have used it to keep up, to a reasonable degree, with a lot of the stronger characters.

I feel like Dragon Ball is filled with a enough plot convenience that Tenshinhan could have believably stayed close enough to Piccolo if he abused all of the advanced training that he could have, and also learned the Kaioken. Which in turn would have made him a good sparring partner for Piccolo. And we all know that having a good sparring partner leads to even more gains.

I think this stems from my desire to see that missed opportunity of Ten and Piccolo keeping up as Goku's rivals be satisfied.