Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

So.. the ultimate question remains.
Do you all think the Omni King is really stupendously powerfull? like omnipotent for instance or a high level reality warper..
Or.. is he just really important?
i personally don't see any reason for Beerus and Champa to freak out so much IF he really wasn't that powerful physically or any magical reality warping skills.
just being very important doesn't freak me out.

So what do you guys think it is??

Either he or someone related to him strong somehow. Beerus and Champa are like bullies. Nothing but power can bug them. Someone who can make even them tremble and worry, must be people who could beat them. Otherwise they'd walk all over these new folk. So either he's really strong. His attendants are really strong. Both. Or they are related in someway to someone really strong who could threaten Beerus and Champa. I can't imagine them being fearful of people who are all beneath them.

[Faisal Shourov]

So.. the ultimate question remains.
Do you all think the Omni King is really stupendously powerfull? like omnipotent for instance or a high level reality warper..
Or.. is he just really important?
i personally don't see any reason for Beerus and Champa to freak out so much IF he really wasn't that powerful physically or any magical reality warping skills.
just being very important doesn't freak me out.

So what do you guys think it is??

Either is possible. Whatever the case, Omni-kIng is extremely important. Beerus or Champa would never act scared around people who're weak or worthless. If Omni-King isn't strong, he MUST be related to somebody who's extremely powerful (some Outer God or something).

[Darkprince410]

From Herms on Twitter:

Beerus tells Goku not to interfere with Champa killing his fighters. His universe, his rules.

Well, there you have it. It doesn't really come any clearer than that. Beerus >= Champa >>> Hit >> SSJB-KKx10 Goku

Honestly it doesn't seem that clear cut especially with Beerus and Whis comments about SSB X KK X 1

Beerus's reaction to it wasn't necessarily out of fear, and Whis's comment on Beerus's reaction showed that he couldn't tell why Beerus was so shocked. It's just as easily a matter of Beerus just being shocked/irritated/angered that Goku was still aiming for him (as he had been during other situations where it was made clear to him that Goku and Vegeta were seemingly aiming to fight him again).

Either is possible. Whatever the case, Omni-kIng is extremely important. Beerus or Champa would never act scared around people who're weak or worthless. If Omni-King isn't strong, he MUST be related to somebody who's extremely powerful (some Outer God or something).

Not necessarily. With what happened with Rou Kaioushin, we know that Beerus will at least temper himself to some degree when it comes to someone of equal ranking with him in the hierarchy of the universe, regardless of how powerful they are. So Zen'o, being of a higher order than him, wouldn't necessarily need to be stronger than him/related to someone stronger than him for Beerus and Champa to have some kind of reverence for him.

[Birusu16]

Champa brags that not even Time-Skip or Super Saiyan are any match for him. He’ll show them just how scary a God of Destruction can be!

Hopefully this argument can be put to rest now. Who am I kidding. People will just sit here and say that Champa is being arrogant and thus there's no truth in his words at all.

[Faisal Shourov]

Champa brags that not even Time-Skip or Super Saiyan are any match for him. He’ll show them just how scary a God of Destruction can be!

Hopefully this argument can be put to rest now. Who am I kidding. People will just sit here and say that Champa is being arrogant and thus there's no truth in his words at all.

Yet they fail to grasp that if Hit was stronger than Champa, he wouldn't have to fight in the tournament. He would've taken the cube by force

[ZombieVito]

Champa brags that not even Time-Skip or Super Saiyan are any match for him. He’ll show them just how scary a God of Destruction can be!

Hopefully this argument can be put to rest now. Who am I kidding. People will just sit here and say that Champa is being arrogant and thus there's no truth in his words at all.

Well he never said Kaioken.

Does Hit power up while performing his time skip ability?

[Birusu16]

Champa brags that not even Time-Skip or Super Saiyan are any match for him. He’ll show them just how scary a God of Destruction can be!

Hopefully this argument can be put to rest now. Who am I kidding. People will just sit here and say that Champa is being arrogant and thus there's no truth in his words at all.

Well he never said Kaioken.

Does Hit power up while performing his time skip ability?

So? He didn't say SSJB either. Does that suddenly mean SSJB is a match for him?

[Bilbo_Swaggins]

With the Omni-God introduced I wonder what role Whis and Vados have now. They appeared to both know who the Omni-God was, but were not nervous or scared of his appearance.

I wonder if the OG is the one who appoints the title/power of God of Destruction and places a "guardian," to keep an eye on them. It would kind of be cool, not only if Omni-God was Whis and Vados master, but also the person responsible for picking and empowering the God of Destruction.

[Marlowe89]

I don't think this episode makes things between SSB KK x 10 and Beerus/Champa any clearer than the last one, to be entirely honest. Beerus still looked visibly nervous when Goku used Kaioken in the previous episode and Champa's reaction to Goku/Hit's glance definitely looked like a bigger deal than Hit's reaction to Champa's threats. I'm not saying that confirms anything, but I still think there's some ambiguity here even with Champa's confidence and bragging near the end of the episode.

Maybe we'll never know for sure anyway since Goku seems to be implying he won't use Kaioken anymore.

[Faisal Shourov]

I don't think this episode makes things between SSB KK x 10 and Beerus/Champa any clearer than the last one, to be entirely honest. Beerus still looked visibly nervous when Goku used Kaioken in the previous episode and Champa's reaction to Goku/Hit's glance definitely looked like a bigger deal than Hit's reaction to Champa's threats. I'm not saying that confirms anything, but I still think there's some ambiguity here even with Champa's confidence and bragging near the end of the episode.

Maybe we'll never know for sure anyway since Goku seems to be implying he won't use Kaioken anymore.

Except Toriyama already said he has no plans for Goku or Vegeta to surpass Beerus. Did nobody read the latest interview?

[Birusu16]

I don't think this episode makes things between SSB KK x 10 and Beerus/Champa any clearer than the last one, to be entirely honest. Beerus still looked visibly nervous when Goku used Kaioken in the previous episode and Champa's reaction to Goku/Hit's glance definitely looked like a bigger deal than Hit's reaction to Champa's threats. I'm not saying that confirms anything, but I still think there's some ambiguity here even with Champa's confidence and bragging near the end of the episode.

Maybe we'll never know for sure anyway since Goku seems to be implying he won't use Kaioken anymore.

Seems pretty clear to me. People just want to exaggerate every little reaction that Champa and Beerus make. Might as well say a table can beat Champa because he bumped into it and hurt his knee. That's the extent to which some of you are exaggerating these reactions.

But alas, I'm not going to argue this because this topic has been beaten to death and this episode had Champa give an emphatic statement on the subject, which is far more significant than assumptions based on reactions.

[Faisal Shourov]

People should read Toriyama's interview. If you think that interview was made long time back, well you're wrong. Toriyama stated in the interview that a popular character is coming back (which is Arale), he has already thought about who the next enemy is going to be (it has something to do with White)

So Goku is not surpassing Beerus, and Hit is not stronger than Champa. If Hit was 60 he would kill Vados with a poke, maybe even Omni-King.

[ZombieVito]

So any estimations for Monaka? He did survive a punch from Goku.

[dbzfan7]

So my impressions now are without numbers because numbers don't make sense in this show. Nor am I counting base stuff as it's confusing. None of this is fact but just impressions which are subjected to change.

Gods

Super Satan
Omni-King/Or Attendants
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJBK Goku
Hit Full Power (His technique is more notable than his raw power and speed)
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit

Regular

SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
Magetta
Frost
Piccolo
Botamo (I'll throw Piccolo a bone)
Monaka (He at least tanked a punch from Base Goku without dying)
Gohan LOL

[Darkron2151]

So any estimations for Monaka? He did survive a punch from Goku.

Just like Mr. Satan survived a hit from both Perfect Cell and Pure Boo. Heck, he even beat Hit the same way Mr. Satan beat 18. So I have him around there.

[Marlowe89]

Hit is not stronger than Champa. If Hit was 60 he would kill Vados with a poke, maybe even Omni-King.

I never claimed that Hit was physically stronger than Champa. I believe his Time-Skip is what makes him such a major threat to Goku to begin with, which was also insinuated by Champa himself.

Anyway moving on, I wouldn't be surprised if Omni-King is later said to be even stronger than Whis and Vados to be honest.

[Khin]

Hit is able to put a good fight against someone who' literally over 10 times stronger than him. Why Piccolo can't do that? If the conditions are in his favor he should be able to pull something similar.

10x ? Where do you get that ? And Hit used tokitobashi.Piccolo on the other hand literally fights against Frost with punches and kicks.

[ZombieVito]

Hit is able to put a good fight against someone who' literally over 10 times stronger than him. Why Piccolo can't do that? If the conditions are in his favor he should be able to pull something similar.

10x ? Where do you get that ? And Hit used tokitobashi.Piccolo on the other hand literally fights against Frost with punches and kicks.

The Kaioken? And Piccolo never threw a punch or kick at Frost.

[Khin]

Okay i still haven't able to watch the episode due to a slow internet connection,but is there any implications that debunks the SSBKKx10 > Beerus/Champa claim ?

Hit is able to put a good fight against someone who' literally over 10 times stronger than him. Why Piccolo can't do that? If the conditions are in his favor he should be able to pull something similar.

10x ? Where do you get that ? And Hit used tokitobashi.Piccolo on the other hand literally fights against Frost with punches and kicks.

The Kaioken? And Piccolo never threw a punch or kick at Frost.

Like i said,he used Tokitobashi.Piccolo did,IRRC,i won't bother checking it but Piccolo fought Frost w/o any special abilities,ki attacks and whatnot.

[RandomGuy96]

No point in pretending Z never happened. If you can use EoZ to try and prove a point, then we can use what takes place on Namek. Or when he came to Earth in a relaxed state in his Mecha state. Both indicate a relaxed Freeza isn't at full-power.

Not anymore than the numerous instances of Goku not being at full power walking around means he has to be suppressed whenever a power statement is made if he doesn't do a visible power-up.

Piccolo only said "That'd be nice, but" and never says anything further. Sending the kids into the rosat only became a thing when Boo arrived on the lookout.

He was quite clearly saying "that'd be nice, but that's not the case", as is made obvious by the structure of the exchange and the next thing he says on this subject:

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…!"

You're choosing to believe the statement has to have one meaning when it doesn't. Krillin saying he guess it's alright because they have Boo could mean he's simply the most capable person of fighting Freeza.

This is not correct. He says things will be alright. If Mr. Buu isn't powerful enough to stop Freeza, then by definition things cannot be "alright". Unless "alright" actually means "we're all going to die and things are totally screwed".

Gohan questions how long his body will last, which was never an issue when he went Super Saiyan. It's obvious it worked differently this time around. Even when he was enraged, he was only Super Saiyan.

He questions how long his body will last because, without training, Super Saiyan puts strain on the body, and he apparently hasn't practiced at all in years.

Of course. Because he lost his other forms. Getting angry doesn't suddenly mean he gets them back.

Read between the lines.

No need. The show for 10 year old children is quite clear in what it shows. Gohan can't access his Ultimate state, so he does the next best thing and goes Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. Done.

Gohan realizes that he can't become Ultimate because of his lack of training, implying he went into the battle under the impression that he could draw out his full-power. Once it became clear that he couldn't draw out his full-power, he had no choice but to become Super Saiyan. So Gohan never thought his Ultimate state was out of the question when he admitted he couldn't beat Freeza.

This is incorrect. Before this battle, not only is Krillin considering Mr. Buu a superior option to him (you yourself have admitted this), but Gohan himself isn't even sure if he can use Super Saiyan. Being as strong as his "Ultimate" self was never, ever in the cards. Furthermore, he said "I can't output my full power", not "I can't output my full power unless I do this".

Gohan realizing that his lack of training prevented him from becoming Ultimate well after admitting Freeza was superior says otherwise.
Gohan seems to think otherwise, or his lack of training preventing him from becoming Ultimate wouldn't have been mentioned well into the battle with Tagoma.

It was already mentioned that his lack of training made it so that Super Saiyan was his best option, and even that was a "probably". He's not even acting like he just learned he can't output his full power, he's just stating that he can't. That by itself means nothing.

Goku never smacked Freeza around in Super. Perhaps you're referring to the RoF movie?

"Fought evenly with" then, if you don't like that phrasing. Goku still seemed in the lead to me though.

Also, the Oob epilogue could be much different considering Pan was born a lot earlier. We don't know how Super is going to handle the EoZ, so let's not pretend like this is a fact.

As far as we know, it's still canon. Burden of proof is on you to disprove it.

Base Goku and Vegeta were way above their highest levels in Z, so they're most definitely above Kid Boo,

Citation needed. If they were way above Pure Buu, someone weaker than Mr. Buu (Piccolo) wouldn't have had any chance against an opponent stronger than them, and Goku definitely wouldn't have had trouble with a fighter he expected to be Pure Buu level, about whom he stated "you're exactly as amazing as I thought you'd be".

Based on what?

Saiyan arc. No one needs to do a big power-up when fighting Nappa and the Cultivars even though they all walk around at below full power.

Gohan and Krillin had to power-up to attack those henchmen at the beginning of Namek.

Thank you for an additional example on why doing a big dramatic power-up is unnecessary.

Yeah, like Freeza being superior to Gohan in his Ultimate state.

Funny, I don't recall Ultimate Gohan even being in this arc.

But I do know Gohan said Freeza was beyond him well before he realized he couldn't become Ultimate.

Too bad he didn't. Too bad Krillin said things would be alright as long as a fighter much weaker than Ultimate Gohan was there to handle Freeza. Too bad the same guy that beats up 4th form Freeza then powers up some more and still isn't dimensions above someone weaker than Mr. Buu.

That's Super Saiyan. Gohan realized he couldn't draw out his full-power due to a lack of training during the fight with Tagoma.

Then why did he even bother to mention that he "probably" can turn into Super Saiyan if he already thought he could use a much stronger form that rendered Super Saiyan worthless? You're not making any sense.

If it was out of the question from the beginning, why did he only realize this well after the fight began?

He wasn't just realizing it. He just stated that he couldn't use his full power, which he also admitted four episodes earlier when he noted that the best he can do is "probably" turn Super Saiyan. Nothing more.

It's pretty funny how you think an indirect statement on Boo confirms Mr. Boo>Freeza, yet Gohan coming to the realization that he'll have to resort to Super Saiyan now that he's unable to draw out his full-power isn't saying Freeza>Ultimate. You're just picking and choosing.

He doesn't come to a realization, he's reiterating something he said several episodes ago.

Freeza needing to power-up to show the extent of his power goes all the way back to the Namek, only to be reiterated when Mecha Freeza arrives on Earth. In other words, Freeza has to power-up to reach full-power. This is actually shown and requires no assumption.

No he doesn't. In regards to Mecha Freeza, he doesn't do any visible power-up after arriving on Earth, yet clearly wasn't at some tiny percentage of his true power the entire time.

What you're not understanding is that there was no reason for it to happen here. He never fought in the form. He just shot finger beams at Gohan and nothing more. There was never a reason for him to change his power because his superiority was already intact.

In other words, there's no narrative purpose for 1st form suppressed Freeza" to even exist? Hence why we're given no hint that the latter even exists? There's no evidence he was suppressed. None. Even though, in literally every other case of suppression, we're explicitly shown or told about it.

Doesn't matter to what extent he was suppressed. The point was he wasn't exerting himself to the point where he was at full-power. Krillin never imagined his power was that high, so it wasn't just a small power-up. This doesn't help you. It just shows that Freeza already had a Chi that made the others look minuscule, only to raise it even higher when he began to power-up.

Yes, it does help me, and yes, it actually does matter quite a bit. It shows that, even assuming you're right and he was suppressed (by assuming he's acting the same way as in the Namek arc), he wasn't suppressed by that much. If he's strong enough to make Vegeta and Gohan look like bugs, he's probably pretty close to his full power already.

Also, x2 is a gargantuan power-up by the standards of this series. It's the difference between SS1 Gohan and SS2 Gohan at the Cell Games, and everyone was in awe of that power-up. Even x1.5 is very large.

Freeza isn't Goku. Also, Freeza powered-up quite a few times in his final form. This was noted many times.

Yes, he powered up without doing a big dramatic sequence. Several times. For example, when he kicks up his speed after Vegeta walks into the fight confident that he can kick Freeza's ass. So he clearly has that ability.

Where was it said that Freeza was at full-power? Nowhere. When did Freeza power-up? Nowhere. When did Freeza actually fight? Never. What was Freeza doing? Sitting on his chair like he was on Namek the entire time. We see how Freeza looks when he goes to full-power the last time he fought. This never happened in Super, so there's no reason to assume he was at full-power for no reason.

"Where was it said that Goku was at full-power? Nowhere. When did Goku power-up? Nowhere. When did base Goku actually fight? Never. What was Goku doing? Sitting around like always. We see how Goku looks when he goes to full-power the last time he fought. This never happened in BOG, so there's no reason to assume he was at full-power for no reason."

It really isn't. "I guess it's alright" makes it clear that he's uncertain if they're really alright. Meanwhile, Gohan realizing that his lack of training prevented him from unleashing his full-power is something he realized when fighting Tagoma. That means he wasn't' aware this ability was gone beforehand.

You're awfully fond of this point, even though he never said anything more than that he can't, which is just a repeat of what he said earlier when he was still unsure if he could even go Super Saiyan before he decayed for another few months.

He powered-up to Super Saiyan, actually.

He powered up in base first, then he transformed into Super Saiyan.

Gohan didn't realize his Ultimate state was gone until he fought with Tagoma.

Repeating this doesn't suddenly make it true.

Yet the last time Gohan fought he was clearly above Boo. It wasn't revealed that Gohan wasn't keeping up with his training until after Krillin already made his statement. Not one of them were aware that Gohan wasn't training.

He told Roshi he wasn't training a while ago. No one had any reason to believe this had changed.

Muten Rōshi: "Gohan, have you been keeping your martial arts training up?"
Gohan: "I-I'm sorry, no. But I can still turn Super Saiyan. Probably."

No one was relieved because Gotenks was also weaker than Freeza.

"No one was relieved" because we got exactly one reaction shot of everyone, and that was them being comically confused after Gotenks headbutted Tagoma in the dragon balls. Fourth form Freeza is probably weaker than Gotenks, to say nothing of his first form.

So any estimations for Monaka? He did survive a punch from Goku.

Just going by what we have now, somewhat below base Goku seems like an okay enough level. Then again that moment could have just been a gag... or maybe Goku wasn't at full power...

But seriously though, I have the impression that he's supposed to be Mr. Satan levels of weak. He doesn't really have any feats to his name.

Monaka (He at least tanked a punch from Base Goku without dying)

So did Krillin, to be fair.

So obviously you must put him above Gohan as well. And where did "shit" go on the tier list?