RandomGuy96 wrote:Not anymore than the numerous instances of Goku not being at full power walking around means he has to be suppressed whenever a power statement is made if he doesn't do a visible power-up.
We're talking about Freeza, not Goku.
He was quite clearly saying "that'd be nice, but that's not the case", as is made obvious by the structure of the exchange and the next thing he says on this subject
That was said
after Krillin questioned why Gotenks wasn't going to fight now instead of later.
This is not correct. He says things will be alright. If Mr. Buu isn't powerful enough to stop Freeza, then by definition things cannot be "alright". Unless "alright" actually means "we're all going to die and things are totally screwed".
"I guess that's alright, we have Boo" is nowhere near a straightforward statement. It's just showing he's pining his hopes on Boo. It's also ignoring context, because Roshi immediately after comments on their small numbers over everything else.
He questions how long his body will last because, without training, Super Saiyan puts strain on the body, and he apparently hasn't practiced at all in years.
Yeah, it's not like we didn't see Super Saiyan Gohan after doing no training in seven yrs. RoF is approximately six months after BoG, which was also not even a yr after the Boo saga. Or if it was, I didn't see where that was stated. Either way, Super Saiyan putting a strain on his body from no training is baseless.
Of course. Because he lost his other forms. Getting angry doesn't suddenly mean he gets them back.
And it's also clear that his Super Saiyan functions differently than it ever did. Gohan completely neglecting his training for seven yrs could fight in Super Saiyan without any trouble.
No need. The show for 10 year old children is quite clear in what it shows. Gohan can't access his Ultimate state, so he does the next best thing and goes Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. Done.
Yet Gohan doesn't realize that his lack of training has prevented him from becoming Ultimate until after fighting Ginyu for a bit, thereby leaving him no other choice but to become Super Saiyan. The sequence of the quotes make it quite clear:
Gohan: "I can't put out my full power... Is it because I slacked off on my training?"
The entire statement
is a realization. He questions if it's because he hasn't been training. This makes it obvious that he was unaware he lost the ability to do this, or he wouldn't have questioned if his lack of training was the cause of this. Then his very next statement:
Gohan: "I have no choice..."
Super Saiyan was obviously a far more risky option for Gohan to do than Ultimate at this point, but he had no choice. There's really no other way to look at it unless you ignore context and assume he only intended to fight in Base the entire time. That in itself doesn't make any sense because his Base form was unable to damage Tagoma and he nearly got killed by the same Tagoma not at full-power.
This is incorrect. Before this battle, not only is Krillin considering Mr. Buu a superior option to him (you yourself have admitted this), but Gohan himself isn't even sure if he can use Super Saiyan. Being as strong as his "Ultimate" self was never, ever in the cards. Furthermore, he said "I can't output my full power", not "I can't output my full power unless I do this".
I went back to look at the scene myself. When Krillin said they had Boo, it was never even revealed that Gohan had been slacking. How is Boo a superior option based on an unknown? Gohan wasn't shown to be weaker than he was six months previously when he was trying to save Mr. Boo from Beers. You simply just took that one statement and ran with it without actually looking at the context of the scene. Roshi goes on to say that there was a problem now that it was only five of them available to fight after Boo's omission is talked about. This is further proof that Mr. Boo would've simply been a worthwhile addition to the team as a whole rather than some secret weapon to beating Freeza. The context makes this perfectly clear.
Furthermore, he said "I can't put out my full-power. Is it because I haven't been training? Well, I have no choice but to go Super Saiyan"
Meaning, Gohan intended to become Ultimate, but realized he couldn't. Knowing this, he had to resort to Super Saiyan. Seriously, read the sequence of the quotes. He questions it while he's fighting. If you can't do that, then ask yourself if he was really planning on fighting Freeza and Co in Base only. If you can't do that, then ask yourself if he was really planning on fighting a much more powerful Ginyu in Base when his effort at the same level of power was rendered useless against a weaker Tagoma.
It was already mentioned that his lack of training made it so that Super Saiyan was his best option, and even that was a "probably". He's not even acting like he just learned he can't output his full power, he's just stating that he can't. That by itself means nothing.
Yes, he is. All it takes is reading the sequence in which the quotes were made, or understanding why Gohan thought he could challenge Ginyu Tagoma. He realized that he couldn't put out his full-power while fighting, questioned if his lack of training was to blame for this, then fell back on the only other option he had. It's clear as day. And it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the idea of him going into the battle with his Base form as the only option. Or better, fighting a stronger Ginyu at the same level of power that was shown to be useless against Tagoma. That in itself is rather silly.
As far as we know, it's still canon. Burden of proof is on you to disprove it.
There's nothing to disprove. Pan was four yrs old during the EoZ. We know for a fact that RoF isn't six yrs after the Boo saga, so this all means nothing.
Citation needed. If they were way above Pure Buu, someone weaker than Mr. Buu (Piccolo) wouldn't have had any chance against an opponent stronger than them, and Goku definitely wouldn't have had trouble with a fighter he expected to be Pure Buu level, about whom he stated "you're exactly as amazing as I thought you'd be".
When Base Goku was fighting Freeza:
Gohan: "They both have incredibly strong Ki."
Krillin: "This is different from the fight with Beerus. I've got this indescribable sense of genuine horror."
Before Goku and Vegeta were sealed into Whis' staff, Beers said both Goku and Vegeta had gotten much stronger before challenging them both. Base Goku and Vegeta>Super Saiyan Goku after merging with the God Power is very much implied there.
Saiyan arc. No one needs to do a big power-up when fighting Nappa and the Cultivars even though they all walk around at below full power.
Good thing Freeza's not an Earthling.
Thank you for an additional example on why doing a big dramatic power-up is unnecessary.
If it was unnecessary, why did Krillin tell Gohan to release his Chi on at least two different occasions resulting in a power-up?
Funny, I don't recall Ultimate Gohan even being in this arc.
Because Gohan realized that his lack of training prevented him from becoming Ultimate. Stated while he's fighting.
Too bad he didn't.
Too bad he did. All you have to do is, I dunno, read the sequence in which the statement is made. Or go along with the silly theory that he only intended to fight in Base the whole time. It's a realization, not a reiteration.
Too bad Krillin said things would be alright as long as a fighter much weaker than Ultimate Gohan was there to handle Freeza.
Well, it wasn't revealed that Gohan had been slacking when Krillin said that, so his statement isn't solid whatsoever. Boo is more than just raw power, but you can pretend he isn't. Either way, he was only mentioned as a another part of the team, since Roshi said Boo's absence was a miscalculation of the amount of people they expected to have available. Nothing like "there goes our only option to beat Freeza" or any nonsense like that.
Too bad the same guy that beats up 4th form Freeza then powers up some more and still isn't dimensions above someone weaker than Mr. Buu.
Goku never beat up Freeza, though I'm not sure what you're even talking about.
Then why did he even bother to mention that he "probably" can turn into Super Saiyan if he already thought he could use a much stronger form that rendered Super Saiyan worthless? You're not making any sense.
Don't ask me. All I know is Gohan tells everyone to step aside so he can fight a more powerful Ginyu-Tagoma on his own. This was after normal Tagoma was already shown to be out of Gohan's league. When Ginyu mocks Gohan on his pathetic power, Gohan notes that he can't put out his full-power, wondering if his lack of training is the reason why. He obviously didn't think he was going to beat a
more powerful Ginyu when he couldn't even handle a weaker Tagoma without
some type of power-up, right? Or was Gohan just faking his inferiority against Tagoma for jokes? Come on.
You can say I'm not making sense, but the idea of Gohan thinking he can handle a more powerful Ginyu when he couldn't even handle a weaker Tagoma in Base falls apart altogether. The fact that he realizes he can't bring out his full-power gives merit to the idea that this was a realization rather than him just saying it in his mind for no apparent reason.
He wasn't just realizing it. He just stated that he couldn't use his full power, which he also admitted four episodes earlier when he noted that the best he can do is "probably" turn Super Saiyan. Nothing more.
Yes, he was. That was literally his only way of beating or equaling Ginyu because his Base power certainly wasn't. Unless you can prove why he was under the impression that he could handle a more powerful Ginyu when his Base couldn't do anything to a weaker Tagoma.
He doesn't come to a realization, he's reiterating something he said several episodes ago.
It IS a realization. If someone says they can't do something, then immediately questions if a certain action is preventing them from doing it, it obviously is just that. Nothing is being reiterated. Gohan thinks he can turn Super Saiyan, which is literally mentioned as a last option if he can't bring out his full-power. Gohan's brief battle with Ginyu made it clear that his lack of training prevented him from bringing out his full-power, so he had no other choice. It's that simple.
No he doesn't. In regards to Mecha Freeza, he doesn't do any visible power-up after arriving on Earth, yet clearly wasn't at some tiny percentage of his true power the entire time.
He was at a level that Gohan considered "nothing", so it was nowhere near what he was capable of. We know Mecha Freeza never powered-up because he ignored Trunks' request to power-up in the first place.
In other words, there's no narrative purpose for 1st form suppressed Freeza" to even exist? Hence why we're given no hint that the latter even exists? There's no evidence he was suppressed. None. Even though, in literally every other case of suppression, we're explicitly shown or told about it.
Guess what? It was only revealed Freeza's power was a lot higher than they thought when he powered-up to fight on Namek. Throughout the whole arc, we never knew the immense power they sensed from him wasn't his best. He never got to test the power in his first form because according to Freeza, it wasn't a proper way of showing his new power off.
Yes, it does help me, and yes, it actually does matter quite a bit. It shows that, even assuming you're right and he was suppressed (by assuming he's acting the same way as in the Namek arc), he wasn't suppressed by that much. If he's strong enough to make Vegeta and Gohan look like bugs, he's probably pretty close to his full power already.
None of those guys were powered-up, though. Freeza's scouter never exploded until Vegeta powered-up and engaged him in the tussle.
Also, x2 is a gargantuan power-up by the standards of this series. It's the difference between SS1 Gohan and SS2 Gohan at the Cell Games, and everyone was in awe of that power-up. Even x1.5 is very large.
If the Daizenshuu is accurate on his power never changing from when he was a kid, then it was clearly a lot higher than that.
Yes, he powered up without doing a big dramatic sequence. Several times. For example, when he kicks up his speed after Vegeta walks into the fight confident that he can kick Freeza's ass. So he clearly has that ability.
That was..a speed increase. We even see Reacoom and Cell increase their speed on the whim. That isn't a power-up.
"Where was it said that Goku was at full-power? Nowhere. When did Goku power-up? Nowhere. When did base Goku actually fight? Never. What was Goku doing? Sitting around like always. We see how Goku looks when he goes to full-power the last time he fought. This never happened in BOG, so there's no reason to assume he was at full-power for no reason."
Goku isn't Freeza. The last time Goku fought in Base (Yakon), there was no power-up. Even Kaioshin could gauge Base Goku's power by just shaking his hand, so.
You're awfully fond of this point, even though he never said anything more than that he can't, which is just a repeat of what he said earlier when he was still unsure if he could even go Super Saiyan before he decayed for another few months.
If you ignore context, maybe.
He powered up in base first, then he transformed into Super Saiyan.
The entire transition was from Base to Super Saiyan. It wasn't a step-by-step process.
Repeating this doesn't suddenly make it true.
So why did Gohan think he'd beat Ginyu Tagoma if he could barely move Tagoma?
He told Roshi he wasn't training a while ago. No one had any reason to believe this had changed.
This was literally stated right after Boo was mentioned. When did Gohan previously tell Roshi he wasn't training?
"No one was relieved" because we got exactly one reaction shot of everyone, and that was them being comically confused after Gotenks headbutted Tagoma in the dragon balls. Fourth form Freeza is probably weaker than Gotenks, to say nothing of his first form.
Freeza being equal to a Goku that was a lot stronger than he was against Beers says otherwise. Bulma said Freeza was out of Gotenks league. Nothing proves this wrong.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
