Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:33 am

It is strange though. Just because he said "you entertained me more than the other Saiyan" doesn't mean that he got much entertainment out of it.
Probably, yes.
Why would Beerus jump to 10% to fight a 0.15% Vegeta? Didn't you say Beerus is someone who cares about entertainment? Why isn't he fighting at 1% instead?
I'd say it'd be because Beerus is intended to be portrayed as a pretty whimsical character too. I mean, in Dokkan Battle he isn't labeled "Whimsical Destruction God" for nothing.
All in all, I supposed he had simply grow bored of Vegeta and, his source of entertainment depleted, suddenly decided to one-shot him and destroy the Earth.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:35 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:
It is strange though. Just because he said "you entertained me more than the other Saiyan" doesn't mean that he got much entertainment out of it.
Probably, yes.
Why would Beerus jump to 10% to fight a 0.15% Vegeta? Didn't you say Beerus is someone who cares about entertainment? Why isn't he fighting at 1% instead?
I'd say it'd be because Beerus is intended to be portrayed as a pretty whimsical character too. I mean, in Dokkan Battle he isn't labeled "Whimsical Destruction God" for nothing.
All in all, I supposed he had simply grow bored of Vegeta and, realizing he couldn't get much stronger than that, suddenly decided to one-shot him and destroy the Earth.
Whis can oneshot Beerus though he is only x1.5 more powerful than him. Surely Beerus could destroy the Earth and oneshot Vegeta if he was x6.666.. more powerful than him (0.15 vs. 1). x66.6666... is overkill.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:41 am

Chiki wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
It is strange though. Just because he said "you entertained me more than the other Saiyan" doesn't mean that he got much entertainment out of it.
Probably, yes.
Why would Beerus jump to 10% to fight a 0.15% Vegeta? Didn't you say Beerus is someone who cares about entertainment? Why isn't he fighting at 1% instead?
I'd say it'd be because Beerus is intended to be portrayed as a pretty whimsical character too. I mean, in Dokkan Battle he isn't labeled "Whimsical Destruction God" for nothing.
All in all, I supposed he had simply grow bored of Vegeta and, realizing he couldn't get much stronger than that, suddenly decided to one-shot him and destroy the Earth.
Whis can oneshot Beerus though he is only x1.5 more powerful than him. Surely Beerus could destroy the Earth and oneshot Vegeta if he was x6.666.. more powerful than him (0.15 vs. 1).
Of course, I'm perfectly aware of that.
Having established that Beerus behaves capriciously, I wouldn't really feel pressed to over-rationalize his actions here: he may have jumped from 0.1% to 10% insted of a possibly more logical 1% "just because".

EDIT: Mind you, I really like the idea that he was actually at 1% vs. Vegeta, see the other post and the difference between "it has been a long time" vs. "it had been a long time", but I still think it would be a pretty controversial approach to the question - so I'd rather leave it be.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:43 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Zombie wrote:Piccolo never threw a punch or kick at Frost.
Like i said,he used Tokitobashi.Piccolo did,IRRC,i won't bother checking it but Piccolo fought Frost w/o any special abilities,ki attacks and whatnot.
Think about a pokemon fight where Goku is at lv50, Frost at lv40 and Piccolo at lv10. Despite Goku being stronger, Frost manages to win, but his health bar is red and his speed much lower. Then, Piccolo takes advantage from Frost being tired and reacts quickier, using diverting tatics. Finally, he manages to trap Frost and ensures to hit him with a technique which will make his hp bar reach 0. That's more or less how I view.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:45 am

Of course, I'm perfectly aware of that.
Having established that Beerus behaves capriciously, I wouldn't really feel pressed to over-rationalize his actions here: he may have jumped from 0.1% to 10% insted of a possibly more logical 1% "just because".
"Capricious" means sudden changes in behavior. I don't see what going to 10% instead of 1% has anything to do with being capricious. Do capricious people buy 15 cent candies for 10 dollars? No they don't. Because that's just common sense. You don't buy 15 cent candies for 10 dollars because it's dumb. Similarly, Beerus's capriciousness has nothing to do with going 10% or 1% because that has to do with common sense, not moodiness.

This isn't over-rationalization. It's called "not being completely dumb."

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:57 am

Yeah I think it's a bit silly to assume Beerus was overcompensating that much against Rageta, I mean would the target audience even draw a conclusion as convoluted as that one after watching the episode?

Also given how impressed Beerus seemed with SSG Goku, it seems really odd that he would only be using a measly 10% of his full power against him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:05 pm

Chiki wrote:
Of course, I'm perfectly aware of that.
Having established that Beerus behaves capriciously, I wouldn't really feel pressed to over-rationalize his actions here: he may have jumped from 0.1% to 10% insted of a possibly more logical 1% "just because".
"Capricious" means sudden changes in behavior. I don't see what going to 10% instead of 1% has anything to do with being capricious. Do capricious people buy 15 cent candies for 10 dollars? No they don't. Because that's just common sense. You don't buy 15 cent candies for 10 dollars because it's dumb. Similarly, Beerus's capriciousness has nothing to do with going 10% or 1% because that has to do with common sense, not moodiness.

This isn't over-rationalization. It's called "not being completely dumb."
I'll try with an example, then: let's say you are in race.
You are in your car, and you drive leisurely: the other contestant, however, can barely keep up with you. He then struggles, he gets slightly ahead of you.

Then you suddenly decide to humiliate him: you get serious, and you complete ten laps before he can manage to finish a single lap.

Over-rationalizing, or rather, overanalyzing means you think there'd be some deep-seated reason for himself to do ten laps instead of one. Of course, the guy spends more fuel, more energy and so on.
Matter of fact is, however, that there's not: the guy is whimsical, he just "felt like it" and he wanted to troll the other contestant at that moment.
You are, in other words, applying a standard model with the idea that the character would necessarily choose the "most rational and efficient" approach. More or less, a matter-of-fact mindset not unlike those you'd find while talking about economic models. Quite a good deal of one person's actions (or in this case, a character), however, doesn't necessarily go in the same direction of economics or formulaic models.

What I'm trying to say is that there's no established rule here that the character in question may necessarily implement the most "efficient". It's not like it's even "the most efficient", because, really... what does it change if Beerus one-shots Vegeta at 1% or 10%? Pretty much nothing. And it's not like he feels the need to always act in a power-conservation mode anyway.

In the end, is there the possibility that Beerus went up to being *100 stronger than Vegeta in a few seconds? Yes, there is.
What's the reason? The reason is that Beerus felt like it.
Is it stupid? Not really, at most it's inefficient. Beerus, however, probably felt more satisfied that way, in that very moment, than by hitting Vegeta at 1% or 1.5% of his power.
Yeah I think it's a bit silly to assume Beerus was overcompensating that much against Rageta, I mean would the target audience even draw a conclusion as convoluted as that one after watching the episode?

Also given how impressed Beerus seemed with SSG Goku, it seems really odd that he would only be using a measly 10% of his full power against him.
What we know for sure here is that Beerus didn't use his true power against Goku, and Super went out of the BOG script to avoid giving us even a percentage this time, so he already used some percentage of his power lower than his 100%.

I'd personally say that Whis talks and acts like "SSB + Kaioken * 2" shouldn't faze Beerus anyway ("Oh, my... do you think you'll be in trouble if he uses that against you?"). Whis should know Beerus' true power, so the question should in turn only be rhetorical, as in "oh, please, don't be silly". Champa still acting like he can beat Hit and Goku apparently reinforces this.

Now, if you agree with this and the fact that Kaioken multiplied his total BP, his Super Saiyan Blue should therefore be less than 50%. This puts Super Saiyan God Goku between some small percentage and slightly less than 50%. He could already be in a 5-40% range, in theory.

In any way, those are just a bunch of ideas. I understand that if you start from one or two different premises, given how blurry the state of affairs currently is you may end up with radically different conclusions.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:17 pm

You are in your car, and you drive leisurely: the other contestant, however, can barely keep up with you. He then struggles, he gets slightly ahead of you.

Then you suddenly decide to humiliate him: you get serious, and you complete ten laps before he can manage to finish a single lap.
Beerus could've done that with just 1% though. 10% was completely overkill. Recoome embarrassed Vegeta with a 50% power gap.
what does it change if Beerus one-shots Vegeta at 1% or 10%? Pretty much nothing.
Hey, you just admitted that it's completely overkill and not necessary!
And it's not like he feels the need to always act in a power-conservation mode anyway.
Actually, he seems to. Given how he was less than 10% vs. SS3 Goku, then went up to 10% for Vegeta, then went up to 70% (in BoG) against SSG Goku. He definitely loves to conserve his power and use the least possible for the task at hand.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:34 pm

When did I say it was not overkill? Your concern was "what's the point of Beerus doing something he could've done with probably less effort? It's not logical".
I already explained that Beerus may have had no need to, but he could've simply "felt like it" and not have acted by giving priority to the most efficient route.
I don't really know in what other way I can paraphrase that. It's not like every character needs to act in a perfectly logical and in the most efficient way at all times, it's a model unappliable to narrative and that it wouldn't apply to a crotchety and whimsical character like Beerus.

On your second concern he'd blow up the Earth and planets he didn't need to destroy for no reason at all, which wouldn't be really efficient, power-wise.
And Battle of Gods is not appliable to Super here. Given the lack of informations, in the anime series Beerus may really have been at 10% all the time for what we know now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:39 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:When did I say it was not overkill? Your concern was "what's the point of Beerus doing something he could've done with probably less effort? It's not logical".
I already explained that Beerus may have had no need to, but he could've simply "felt like it" and not have acted by giving priority to the most efficient route.
I don't really know in what other way I can paraphrase that. It's not like every character needs to act in a perfectly logical and in the most efficient way at all times, it's a model unappliable to narrative and that it wouldn't apply to a crotchety and whimsical character like Beerus.

On your second concern he'd blow up the Earth and planets he didn't need to destroy for no reason at all, which wouldn't be really efficient, power-wise.
And Battle of Gods is not appliable to Super here. Given the lack of informations, in the anime series Beerus may really have been at 10% all the time for what we know now.
It's not about acting in a perfectly logical or most efficient way. Have you ever seen someone in real life buy a 15 cent candy with 10 dollars just for kicks? I haven't. I have tried in real life so I could get change, but I always get turned down lol.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:53 pm

Chiki wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:When did I say it was not overkill? Your concern was "what's the point of Beerus doing something he could've done with probably less effort? It's not logical".
I already explained that Beerus may have had no need to, but he could've simply "felt like it" and not have acted by giving priority to the most efficient route.
I don't really know in what other way I can paraphrase that. It's not like every character needs to act in a perfectly logical and in the most efficient way at all times, it's a model unappliable to narrative and that it wouldn't apply to a crotchety and whimsical character like Beerus.

On your second concern he'd blow up the Earth and planets he didn't need to destroy for no reason at all, which wouldn't be really efficient, power-wise.
And Battle of Gods is not appliable to Super here. Given the lack of informations, in the anime series Beerus may really have been at 10% all the time for what we know now.
It's not about acting in a perfectly logical or most efficient way. Have you ever seen someone in real life buy a 15 cent candy with 10 dollars just for kicks? I haven't. I have tried in real life so I could get change, but I always get turned down lol.
Well, you may be taking this a little to the extreme. This is more alike to someone wanting to humiliate his opponent in a contest by suddenly switching gears: you are racing against someone and you use more effort to humiliate the guy. It's not the most efficient way to win, but it may be the most satisfactory for the racer.

"Hey, but you could have still won the prize while not trying so hard, why would you do that?"
"Because I wanted to totally humiliate my opponent and I wanted to make him realize how far ahead of him I was". It's the same for Beerus saying "oh, thought you had a chance? I'm using 10% of my power now and I'm this much stronger than you".

That's only how I interpret that scene based on the informations we have so far, anyway.
And more of a consequence of my impressions based on Whis' comments on SSB+KK vs. Beerus and Champa vs. Everyone Else from his universe, nevertheless: like I said, I'm quite open to rather different conclusions beautifully blossoming from different premises.
Not like you can make everything fit here picture-perfectly, Beerus acting in a silly way but still in-character while facing against Rageta to me is simply the most hassle-free framework at the moment. I'm not acting like someone may beg to differ.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:02 pm

Bullza wrote:They're different but similiar in ways. In both versions Goku says Piccolo has no chance at winning but he could make Frost lose his stamina for his next fight.

Piccolo is surprised that Frost is going to fight him in his Final Form and tells him to feel free to hold back. Frost stands in the middle of the ring blasting away at Piccolo who is evading mid air because he's on the defensive. All of that is the same.

What's different is that in the manga Piccolo says he knows he can't win but he'll make it hard for him. They both get tired and Frost cheats to win. In the anime Piccolo just charges up the SBC while on the defensive and Frost cheats to win and says it would have beaten him.

So except for Piccolo using the SBC cannon which could have beaten him it was still pretty much the same.
Piccolo's mind set is completely different between the anime and manga. In one he resigns himself to his "role" and in the other he says screw that role and everyone that is underestimating me, I'm going to win this with strategy and skill.

Saying they are different just because of the Makankosappo is just silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:06 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
Chiki wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:When did I say it was not overkill? Your concern was "what's the point of Beerus doing something he could've done with probably less effort? It's not logical".
I already explained that Beerus may have had no need to, but he could've simply "felt like it" and not have acted by giving priority to the most efficient route.
I don't really know in what other way I can paraphrase that. It's not like every character needs to act in a perfectly logical and in the most efficient way at all times, it's a model unappliable to narrative and that it wouldn't apply to a crotchety and whimsical character like Beerus.

On your second concern he'd blow up the Earth and planets he didn't need to destroy for no reason at all, which wouldn't be really efficient, power-wise.
And Battle of Gods is not appliable to Super here. Given the lack of informations, in the anime series Beerus may really have been at 10% all the time for what we know now.
It's not about acting in a perfectly logical or most efficient way. Have you ever seen someone in real life buy a 15 cent candy with 10 dollars just for kicks? I haven't. I have tried in real life so I could get change, but I always get turned down lol.
Well, you may be taking this a little to the extreme. This is more alike to someone wanting to humiliate his opponent in a contest by suddenly switching gears: you are racing against someone and you use more effort to humiliate the guy. It's not the most efficient way to win, but it may be the most satisfactory for the racer.

"Hey, but you could have still won the prize while not trying so hard, why would you do that?"
"Because I wanted to totally humiliate my opponent and I wanted to make him realize how far ahead of him I was". It's the same for Beerus saying "oh, thought you had a chance? I'm using 10% of my power now and I'm this much stronger than you".

That's only how I interpret that scene based on the informations we have so far, anyway.
And more of a consequence of my impressions based on Whis' comments on SSB+KK vs. Beerus and Champa vs. Everyone Else from his universe, nevertheless: like I said, I'm quite open to rather different conclusions beautifully blossoming from different premises.
Not like you can make everything fit here picture-perfectly, Beerus acting in a silly way but still in-character while facing against Rageta to me is simply the most hassle-free framework at the moment. I'm not acting like someone may beg to differ.
Ok, but given that Beerus likes to conserve his power (as I've shown) and given that he could own Vegeta the same whether it's 1% or 10%, we should automatically assume that he would use the minimum possible power to embarrass Vegeta.

Ex: Beerus is many hundreds of times stronger than Cell. But Cell and Beerus can own Yamcha the same way because the power gap is great regardless. Cell can do whatever Beerus can do to Yamcha because the power gap is great enough. Similarly, 1% Beerus (according to you, not to me) can own Vegeta the same way as 10% Beerus because the power gap is great regardless. 1% can do whatever 10% can because of the power gap. Given this fact, which you admitted, and the fact that Beerus likes to conserve his power as much as possible, we can infer that Beerus needed the 10% and 1% would not have been good enough.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Zombie wrote:Piccolo never threw a punch or kick at Frost.
Like i said,he used Tokitobashi.Piccolo did,IRRC,i won't bother checking it but Piccolo fought Frost w/o any special abilities,ki attacks and whatnot.
Think about a pokemon fight where Goku is at lv50, Frost at lv40 and Piccolo at lv10. Despite Goku being stronger, Frost manages to win, but his health bar is red and his speed much lower. Then, Piccolo takes advantage from Frost being tired and reacts quickier, using diverting tatics. Finally, he manages to trap Frost and ensures to hit him with a technique which will make his hp bar reach 0. That's more or less how I view.
What I've been saying the entire time; video game logic in full flow :P

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Faisal Shourov » Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:58 pm

In case anybody wondering if Hit is stronger than Champa or Vados

Akira Toriyama;
Toyotarō:
… I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
That should settle all the ambiguity, unless people want to remain confused because of ignorance -_-
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:03 pm

Faisal Shourov wrote:In case anybody wondering if Hit is stronger than Champa or Vados

Akira Toriyama;
Toyotarō:
… I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
That should settle all the ambiguity, unless people want to remain confused because of ignorance -_-
Not to mention this episode Hit says him and Goku are just pawns in the game of Beerus and Champa, and Goku replies, while in KKx10 "for now", meaning they are still below them, but will surpass them before long.
Check out the videos below, made by yours truly!

Goku vs Beerus BOG/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/kKKnMe

Vegeta vs Freeza ROF/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/MKPepW

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:29 pm

Faisal Shourov wrote:In case anybody wondering if Hit is stronger than Champa or Vados

Akira Toriyama;
Toyotarō:
… I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
That should settle all the ambiguity, unless people want to remain confused because of ignorance -_-
Everyone on this thread already knew about this statement since the start of April.

As I've said 100 times already, Hit is weaker than Champa, but Hit could defeat Champa because of the Tokitobashi which is a cheap ability.

Image

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:40 pm

Even if Kaioken temporarily boosted Goku's strength beyond the Gods of Destruction, nobody was arguing that Goku would be capable of defeating Beerus by virtue of possessing more power - especially given Champa's comment that simply avoiding KK Goku would be enough to win against him. Ergo, one can still argue that he wouldn't necessarily be "surpassing" them.

Goku also implied he wouldn't be using Kaioken anymore anyway, so unless there's another Super Saiyan transformation in the future I don't see him getting much stronger than SSBKK without it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by FTW395 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:58 pm

Bit off-topic, but was it ever stated that Whis was stronger than Beerus in the Dragonball Super anime? It was made clear that he's stronger than beerus, both in the movie and the manga, but I can't remember this being shown in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:06 pm

FTW395 wrote:Bit off-topic, but was it ever stated that Whis was stronger than Beerus in the Dragonball Super anime? It was made clear that he's stronger than beerus, both in the movie and the manga, but I can't remember this being shown in the anime.
Bulma asks Whis if he's stronger than Beerus, and he says something like "well, I wonder about that?".

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