Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Not anymore than the numerous instances of Goku not being at full power walking around means he has to be suppressed whenever a power statement is made if he doesn't do a visible power-up.

We're talking about Freeza, not Goku.

Do you really not comprehend something as simple as using an example as a comparison? We know Goku doesn't walk around at full power all the time. Yet we don't assume Goku wasn't at full power when Beerus stated he couldn't beat Freeza. Why are you not doing the same for Freeza?

That was said after Krillin questioned why Gotenks wasn't going to fight now instead of later.

Which changes nothing. Piccolo could clearly tell that Buu was too strong for Gotenks, and made that clear. The audience aren't a bunch of idiots, if Piccolo responds "that'd be nice, but... [sweats]" to Krillin saying "But... but things will be alright... right? Goku said fusion was the strongest", they know that the latter isn't actually correct.

"I guess that's alright, we have Boo" is nowhere near a straightforward statement. It's just showing he's pining his hopes on Boo.

No, it's actually very straightforward. He says things will be alright. If Mr. Buu isn't powerful enough to stop Freeza, then by definition things cannot be "alright". Unless "alright" actually means "we're all going to die and things are totally screwed". If you can't grasp something so simple, then there's no point in this conversation.

I find it odd, though, that you keep admitting "he's pinning his hopes on Boo" while at the same time trying to sell the narrative that Gohan was way stronger than Buu.

It's also ignoring context, because Roshi immediately after comments on their small numbers over everything else.

Roshi stating "well I guess it's just the five of us" has no bearing on whether or not Krillin thinks things would be manageable with Buu there. Which he clearly does.

Yeah, it's not like we didn't see Super Saiyan Gohan after doing no training in seven yrs.
Gohan completely neglecting his training for seven yrs could fight in Super Saiyan without any trouble.

It's never said he didn't any training at all, it's just said he didn't do any "serious" or "significant" training. You're making stuff up again.

RoF is approximately six months after BoG, which was also not even a yr after the Boo saga. Or if it was, I didn't see where that was stated. Either way, Super Saiyan putting a strain on his body from no training is baseless.

"Super Saiyan putting a strain on his body from no training" is what's stated in the show. Furthermore, it's never stated exactly where these arcs lie on the timeline.

On the bolded: you totally made that up out of whole cloth.

And it's also clear that his Super Saiyan functions differently than it ever did.

No it isn't. Super Saiyan putting significant strain on the body has been the case since the Cell arc. Gohan wondering how long he can maintain Super Saiyan (and then maintaining it for a prolonged period even after being severely injured) isn't a case of Super Saiyan acting any differently than it always has.

Yet Gohan doesn't realize that his lack of training has prevented him from becoming Ultimate until after fighting Ginyu for a bit, thereby leaving him no other choice but to become Super Saiyan. The sequence of the quotes make it quite clear:
The entire statement is a realization. He questions if it's because he hasn't been training. This makes it obvious that he was unaware he lost the ability to do this, or he wouldn't have questioned if his lack of training was the cause of this.

No, he's questioning the cause. When he says "I can't put out my full power", it's said as a simple statement of fact that he's not at all shocked about. Before the fight even began he was already considering Super Saiyan as his only option, and questioning if he can even do that much ("I can still turn Super Saiyan though... I think..."). Any supposed "implications" are immediately debunked by that little fact.

Then his very next statement:
Super Saiyan was obviously a far more risky option for Gohan to do than Ultimate at this point, but he had no choice. There's really no other way to look at it unless you ignore context and assume he only intended to fight in Base the entire time. That in itself doesn't make any sense because his Base form was unable to damage Tagoma and he nearly got killed by the same Tagoma not at full-power.

Yet he attacked Tagoma in base anyway without trying to transform.

I went back to look at the scene myself. When Krillin said they had Boo, it was never even revealed that Gohan had been slacking. How is Boo a superior option based on an unknown?Gohan wasn't shown to be weaker than he was six months previously when he was trying to save Mr. Boo from Beers. You simply just took that one statement and ran with it without actually looking at the context of the scene.

You're randomly assuming that Krillin didn't know, even though he doesn't act shocked when Roshi confirms it literally ten seconds later. Occam's Razor would determine that, if Krillin was considering Buu their best hope rather than Gohan, and doesn't react to this as if it's new knowledge, then yes, he already knew.

Roshi goes on to say that there was a problem now that it was only five of them available to fight after Boo's omission is talked about. This is further proof that Mr. Boo would've simply been a worthwhile addition to the team as a whole rather than some secret weapon to beating Freeza. The context makes this perfectly clear.

The context makes it perfectly clear that Buu was considered the strongest of them besides Goku and Vegeta too, yet you don't seem to have any problem ignoring that.

Furthermore, he said "I can't put out my full-power. Is it because I haven't been training? Well, I have no choice but to go Super Saiyan"
Meaning, Gohan intended to become Ultimate, but realized he couldn't. Knowing this, he had to resort to Super Saiyan.

It doesn't mean that at all. He already knew Super Saiyan was his only option, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to reassure himself and the others by saying "I can go Super Saiyan, maybe", and Krillin wouldn't treat him as weaker than Buu. Nor would Goku consider him less useful than Buu even after an additional 1-2 years of training. He also wouldn't have lost to someone who's much, much weaker than the Piccolo of one arc in the future, who is still below Mr. Buu (LowRyder proved this quite comprehensively). It's that simple.

If you can't do that, then ask yourself if he was really planning on fighting Freeza and Co in Base only. If you can't do that, then ask yourself if he was really planning on fighting a much more powerful Ginyu in Base when his effort at the same level of power was rendered useless against a weaker Tagoma.

He was just indulging in the standard Toei practice of attacking a foe he knew he had no chance against and then waiting to go Super Saiyan for a while. Nothing more.

Yes, he is. All it takes is reading the sequence in which the quotes were made, or understanding why Gohan thought he could challenge Ginyu Tagoma. He realized that he couldn't put out his full-power while fighting,

No, you're making stuff up again. He already acknowledged Super Saiyan as his best hope before the fight began, and wasn't even sure if he could do that.

questioned if his lack of training was to blame for this, then fell back on the only other option he had. It's clear as day. And it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the idea of him going into the battle with his Base form as the only option. Or better, fighting a stronger Ginyu at the same level of power that was shown to be useless against Tagoma. That in itself is rather silly.

What's silly is assuming Super Saiyan Gohan isn't as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan and is actually as strong as Ultimate Gohan even though the series goes out of its way to point out that he got weaker, never mentions the existence of this new "Ultimate Super Saiyan", and he flat-out says his "full power" is out of reach. Not "I can't access my full power unless I do this," just "I can't access my full power" period.

There's nothing to disprove. Pan was four yrs old during the EoZ. We know for a fact that RoF isn't six yrs after the Boo saga,

In Super? Do we? The timeline isn't at all specified in this series. All that's said is that "some time has passed" since everyone's memory of Buu was erased. It's intentionally vague.

When Base Goku was fighting Freeza:
Gohan: "They both have incredibly strong Ki."
Krillin: "This is different from the fight with Beerus. I've got this indescribable sense of genuine horror."
Before Goku and Vegeta were sealed into Whis' staff, Beers said both Goku and Vegeta had gotten much stronger before challenging them both. Base Goku and Vegeta>Super Saiyan Goku after merging with the God Power is very much implied there.

Neither of these are proof. The first exchange simply means Krillin's more scared than he was during the Beerus fight, when he couldn't even sense the ki of the fighters in question, and when the villain wasn't anywhere near as ruthless as Freeza. The second is simply Whis saying they're much stronger than they were when they started training in their base forms, not their base forms are stronger than SSG Goku when he fought Beerus.

Any assertion that base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than SSG is immediately debunked by the fact that apparently SS is still x50 stronger than their base, yet SSG Goku can still give ~10% Beerus a good fight. Plus Goku bragging that his SSGSS has the power of a Super Saiyan God. Plus Piccolo lasting more than one second against Frost. Plus, you know, everything else involving their base forms past the fight with Beerus.

Good thing Freeza's not an Earthling.

Good thing that has no bearing on the discussion.

If it was unnecessary, why did Krillin tell Gohan to release his Chi on at least two different occasions resulting in a power-up?

Because Toriyama wanted to draw a power-up sequence.

Too bad he did.

Too be bad he didn't. Too bad he was already unsure if he could even go SS, to say nothing of Ultimate.

Well, it wasn't revealed that Gohan had been slacking when Krillin said that, so his statement isn't solid whatsoever. Boo is more than just raw power, but you can pretend he isn't. Either way, he was only mentioned as a another part of the team, since Roshi said Boo's absence was a miscalculation of the amount of people they expected to have available. Nothing like "there goes our only option to beat Freeza" or any nonsense like that.

"There goes our only option to beat Freeza" is implicitly the meaning of the following statement, as Krillin had just indirectly said that Buu could handle Freeza.

Goku never beat up Freeza, though I'm not sure what you're even talking about.

"Beat up", "fought evenly with", the point remains the same. Frost was stronger than base Goku/Vegeta yet not dimensions above Piccolo. Piccolo was weaker than Buu. Base Goku and Vegeta were at least as strong as 4th form Freeza.

Don't ask me.

Lame copouts like that don't work here. If Gohan was under the impression that he could go Ultimate the entire time, how does the preceding conversation where Mr. Buu is considered superior to him and Gohan himself is unsure if he can even use SS make any sense?

This was after normal Tagoma was already shown to be out of Gohan's league. When Ginyu mocks Gohan on his pathetic power, Gohan notes that he can't put out his full-power, wondering if his lack of training is the reason why. He obviously didn't think he was going to beat a more powerful Ginyu when he couldn't even handle a weaker Tagoma without some type of power-up, right? Or was Gohan just faking his inferiority against Tagoma for jokes? Come on.

Again, standard Toei fight sequence. He tries to fight Tagoma in base rather than trying to power up in any way.

You can say I'm not making sense, but the idea of Gohan thinking he can handle a more powerful Ginyu when he couldn't even handle a weaker Tagoma in Base falls apart altogether. Yes, he was. That was literally his only way of beating or equaling Ginyu because his Base power certainly wasn't. Unless you can prove why he was under the impression that he could handle a more powerful Ginyu when his Base couldn't do anything to a weaker Tagoma.

The thing is, he didn't even try to draw out his full power and then fail. He just rushed Tagoma in base, got beat up, and went SS.

It IS a realization. If someone says they can't do something, then immediately questions if a certain action is preventing them from doing it, it obviously is just that. Nothing is being reiterated. Gohan thinks he can turn Super Saiyan, which is literally mentioned as a last option if he can't bring out his full-power.

No it isn't. It's mentioned as his only option. "Ultimate" was not never even considered as a hypothetical option. He says "I can still turn Super Saiyan... probably..." not "I can probably still turn Ultimate, and if not, I can definitely still turn Super Saiyan".

He was at a level that Gohan considered "nothing", so it was nowhere near what he was capable of. We know Mecha Freeza never powered-up because he ignored Trunks' request to power-up in the first place.

No, we don't know that actually, and considering the whole point of this scene is to establish that Freeza's power is nothing compared to this new guy's, that theory is more than a little absurd.

Guess what? It was only revealed Freeza's power was a lot higher than they thought when he powered-up to fight on Namek. Throughout the whole arc, we never knew the immense power they sensed from him wasn't his best.

So, in other words, it was explicitly stated and shown to us that he was suppressed, which doesn't happen here at all. Gotcha.

None of those guys were powered-up, though. Freeza's scouter never exploded until Vegeta powered-up and engaged him in the tussle.

Again, there's a difference between not being suppressed and "flexing" (hence why Vegeta showing off breaks Dodoria's scouter, yet his scouter doesn't shatter when "suppressed 1st form Freeza" is standing right there). None of them do any power-up or are noted to change their power levels.

If the Daizenshuu is accurate on his power never changing from when he was a kid, then it was clearly a lot higher than that.

Still nowhere near x3. But okay, if that's not a good enough example: the difference between (suppressed) Goku and the Ginyus was a gargantuan difference, even though that was only x1.5. The difference between Nappa and Tenshinhan was gargantuan, and it was only around x2. Freeza going from 70% to 100% was considered a very large power-up. Et cetera. x2 is a big difference in this series.

Your habit of refusing to concede anything and quickly changing arguments as they get debunked is getting tiring.

That was..a speed increase. We even see Reacoom and Cell increase their speed on the whim. That isn't a power-up.

It was quite clearly a power-up, since Vegeta, who can sense ki, goes from thinking he can win against Freeza to pissing himself with fear. And then Freeza proceeds to tear him apart, again, without doing any power-up.

Goku isn't Freeza.

You keep saying this as if it means anything. It doesn't.

The entire transition was from Base to Super Saiyan. It wasn't a step-by-step process.

If it was just a regular Super Saiyan transformation, he would have transformed immediately, rather than apparently steadily raising his power in base without transforming, before finally transforming.

So why did Gohan think he'd beat Ginyu Tagoma if he could barely move Tagoma?

Because he had Super Saiyan.

This was literally stated right after Boo was mentioned. When did Gohan previously tell Roshi he wasn't training?

Got the timeline mixed up, sorry.

Freeza being equal to a Goku that was a lot stronger than he was against Beers says otherwise.

Too bad that never happened.

Bulma said Freeza was out of Gotenks league. Nothing proves this wrong.

[/quote]
The people who can actually sense ki said Buu and Gotenks could handle Freeza. Nothing proves this wrong.

Bulma's statement is worth less than nothing.

[Marlowe89]

Toriyama said he has no plans to make Goku surpass Beerus, yet people make headcanon hypothesis and assumption that Goku has potential to beat Beerus. As if nobody has understood what ''right now, I don't have any plans'' mean. Not only Goku hasn't surpassed Beerus yet, he won't in near future. It means Goku doesn't have the potential to beat Beerus, and to think otherwise is creating headcanon interpretation which contradicts Word of God. If they had potential, Toriyama would've said Goku would surpass Beerus someday, or has already surpassed. None of which is the case

Now you're just blatantly misrepresenting what Toriyama said - "I don't have any plans right now" isn't the same as "it'll never happen". As of right now specifically refers to the time at which the interview was conducted, it doesn't mean "I've indefinitely decided that they'll never, ever surpass Beerus". That's just basic reading comprehension, really.

There's nothing headcanon about Goku and Hit at least having the potential to surpass them considering Goku flat-out says "For now" in response to Hit. The context and implication of such a declaration is unambiguous. To argue otherwise is just being willfully ignorant.

[Saiyan007]

So what's with those screenshots? Beerus is impatient? Can you elaborate your thinking because It doesn't seem to be something self-explanatory.

basically Beerus isn't much slower than Whis staff

So whatever feats Whis staff does it can be scaled to Beerus

But we are not shown such a thing at all. For all we know even Goku was talking and complaining about peeing on himself and interact with Whis while he was being carried by Whis at those speeds. Heck even in the cube all those earthlings could eat and interact like nothing. In either case it is like being in a plane. If I know how much time had elapsed or watch out of the window or anything it doesn't mean that I can fly at the speed of the plane myself. Claiming I could it would be ridiculous.

You've seemed to completely miss the point.

Whis with his staff going as quickly as he could got to a planet in 60 seconds Beerus then flies to his planet to the same planet Whis is on in 80 seconds therefore Beerus is comparable to Whis staff.

[Faisal Shourov]

As of right now specifically refers to the time at which the interview was conducted, it doesn't mean "I've indefinitely decided that they'll never, ever surpass Beerus". That's just basic reading comprehension, really.

That interview was taken early this month and Toriyama has already planned far ahead, unless you forgot to read about the character related to Future (Arale). Anybody who says Goku surpassed Beerus has no clue what he/she is saying, and is directly contradicting Toriyama with their headcanon

There was nothing unambiguous about Hit crapping his pant when Champa threatened to kill him and saying Tokitoboshi won't work

[ZombieVito]

As of right now specifically refers to the time at which the interview was conducted, it doesn't mean "I've indefinitely decided that they'll never, ever surpass Beerus". That's just basic reading comprehension, really.

That interview was taken early this month and Toriyama has already planned far ahead, unless you forgot to read about the character related to Future (Arale). Anybody who says Goku surpassed Beerus has no clue what he/she is saying, and is directly contradicting Toriyama with their headcanon

There was nothing unambiguous about Hit crapping his pant when Champa threatened to kill him and saying Tokitoboshi won't work

Yeah the 6/10/15 scale is dead but since Super never use it I have zero problem with that.

I still fail to see how the power scaling is messed up.

[Faisal Shourov]

Yeah the 6/10/15 scale is dead but since Super never use it I have zero problem with that.

I still fail to see how the power scaling is messed up.

There's not much problem, the only scaling we have for Goku and Vegeta (not Rageta mind you) in Super is the Beerus Castle and Tree comparison, which fortunately doesn't use any numbers, and perfectly falls in line with Toriyama's new interview.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Do you really not comprehend something as simple as using an example as a comparison? We know Goku doesn't walk around at full power all the time. Yet we don't assume Goku wasn't at full power when Beerus stated he couldn't beat Freeza. Why are you not doing the same for Freeza?

Because unlike Goku, Freeza has to bring out the full-capacity of his Chi by increasing his power through a power-up or fighting. Goku can just start fighting at his best right from the jump, so the comparison isn't a good one.

Which changes nothing. Piccolo could clearly tell that Buu was too strong for Gotenks, and made that clear. The audience aren't a bunch of idiots, if Piccolo responds "that'd be nice, but... [sweats]" to Krillin saying "But... but things will be alright... right? Goku said fusion was the strongest", they know that the latter isn't actually correct.

Not talking about the audience. Krillin doesn't seem to realize Gotenks isn't ready to fight Boo despite sensing both of them. He's just wrong.

No, it's actually very straightforward. He says things will be alright. If Mr. Buu isn't powerful enough to stop Freeza, then by definition things cannot be "alright". Unless "alright" actually means "we're all going to die and things are totally screwed". If you can't grasp something so simple, then there's no point in this conversation.

Oh, really? Let's take a look at this:

#18: "So both Goku and Vegeta are away at Beerus' place?"
Krillin: "Yeah, we're still waiting to hear back from them. I hope they show up quickly."
Krillin: "Thankfully we've got Majin Boo and Gohan with us, so that's reassuring."

Having both Boo and Gohan together reassures him that things won't be as bad, even though he still wants Goku and Vegeta to hurry back despite that. If Boo was as bad as you think he is, Krillin would've never mentioned Gohan at all. At no point between the trip to the battlefield and after they arrive was Gohan noted to be weak. Hell, Krillin became more motivated when he saw Gohan and Piccolo. Your little stance is showing some blemishes right about now. As far as Krillin was concerned, this was the same Gohan that tried to save Mr. Boo while fighting Beers.

I find it odd, though, that you keep admitting "he's pinning his hopes on Boo" while at the same time trying to sell the narrative that Gohan was way stronger than Buu.

Because Krillin thought both Gohan and Boo would've made things easier to deal with without Goku and Vegeta there. When the other half of the duo wasn't there, Krillin comments on it. Congrats on totally misreading the context of a simple scene to try and prove Mr. Boo>Freeza, which is wrong btw.

Roshi stating "well I guess it's just the five of us" has no bearing on whether or not Krillin thinks things would be manageable with Buu there. Which he clearly does.

Um, duh. Krillin said having the combination of Boo and Gohan would've made the situation easier to deal with. That's obviously looking at things from a team perspective. Boo isn't there, so the situation goes from potentially manageable to a complete disaster when they sense the new power of Freeza. If Gohan stayed home to watch Pan, you don't think Krillin would've questioned where he was at after immediately thinking of him as a stand-in for Goku and Vegeta? Seriously.

It's never said he didn't any training at all, it's just said he didn't do any "serious" or "significant" training. You're making stuff up again.

No. It's flat-out said he got lazy during the time of peace and slacked. The same friggin think is stated about Gohan in Super. You can play the semantic game all you want. You're still wrong.

"Super Saiyan putting a strain on his body from no training" is what's stated in the show. Furthermore, it's never stated exactly where these arcs lie on the timeline.

It's six months after BoG where we last saw Gohan become Super Saiyan.

On the bolded: you totally made that up out of whole cloth.

Read above. Gohan became a Super Saiyan before without any glaring issues.

No it isn't. Super Saiyan putting significant strain on the body has been the case since the Cell arc. Gohan wondering how long he can maintain Super Saiyan (and then maintaining it for a prolonged period even after being severely injured) isn't a case of Super Saiyan acting any differently than it always has.

This is a load of crap. We see a Goku that's stated to be close to death remain in Super Saiyan after being knocked around by the Cell Jrs. Why? Because he eliminated the strain of the form entirely. We see a Gohan that used up the majority of his stamina fighting Dabra remain in Super Saiyan. Goku on Namek maintained Super Saiyan for the duration of unlocking the form, before reverting briefly and transforming right after. Gohan questions if he'll be able to hold the form as if it's a Kaio-Ken type of power-up or something. Super Saiyan never functioned like that at any point in the series.

No, he's questioning the cause. When he says "I can't put out my full power", it's said as a simple statement of fact that he's not at all shocked about.

That's your opinion. He says that he can't put out his full-power and that he has no choice but to use Super Saiyan. Anyone without any bias would know someone that's left with no choice clearly never wanted to go that route in the first place. When he finds out that he's unable to become Ultimate, he's left with no choice but to become a Super Saiyan. Saying otherwise is wrong because he wasn't going to beat Ginyu Tagoma alone after being thrashed by Ginyu Tagoma in a group battle. Stop.

Before the fight even began he was already considering Super Saiyan as his only option, and questioning if he can even do that much ("I can still turn Super Saiyan though... I think..."). Any supposed "implications" are immediately debunked by that little fact.

Because Super Saiyan works differently than his Ultimate state. Since it jacks his body up this time around, it's clearly pushing it to its limits. Simple.

Also because of this: Super Saiyan Gohan>Ginyu Tagoma=Ultimate Gohan>Suppressed Tagoma>>Base Gohan>Piccolo

Ginyu Tagoma was equal to Gohan's current best in his mind (Ultimate, which he later realizes he can't tap into), while easily handling Base Gohan. None of this requires an assumption.

Yet he attacked Tagoma in base anyway without trying to transform.

Fighting with Ginyu Tagoma allowed him to realize he couldn't become Ultimate. It's stated.

Another interesting thing to note: Base Gohan is regarded as stronger than Piccolo at this point. Hmmmm.

You're randomly assuming that Krillin didn't know, even though he doesn't act shocked when Roshi confirms it literally ten seconds later.

Because he clearly didn't. Krillin was happy that both Gohan and Boo were there to defend the planet while Goku and Vegeta weren't there. What you're saying makes no sense because it's the equivalent of "I'm glad weak ass Gohan and the super powerful Boo are here". Yeah, right.

Occam's Razor would determine that, if Krillin was considering Buu their best hope rather than Gohan, and doesn't react to this as if it's new knowledge, then yes, he already knew.

No, that's stupid. Again, context makes it clear that Krillin was considering both Gohan and Boo as the ones who gave him comfort while Goku and Vegeta were away. When only one of those people show up for the fight, the situation becomes dire again. This is exactly how it would've been replicated had Boo flew to the battlefield with them:

Krillin: "Goku and Vegeta aren't back yet? Well, I guess that's alright. We've got Gohan, and...huh? Where's Gohan?"

You've utterly missed the entire point of the scene to try to prove a point in an absent-minded way. Good job.

The context makes it perfectly clear that Buu was considered the strongest of them besides Goku and Vegeta too, yet you don't seem to have any problem ignoring that.

Wrong. Boo is grouped with Gohan as the two who gave Krillin reassurance in fighting without Goku and Vegeta. If it was simply about Boo, then Gohan would've never been mentioned at all. He's not in his own fucking tier. You know why Boo is mentioned by Krillin? Because. He. Wasn't. There. Boo wasn't some secret weapon they were cooking up for Freeza; he was one of the strongest on the planet along with Gohan. One half of the two arrived, the other didn't, therefore making things a lot tougher than anticipated. I don't know how you can seriously misread context any worse than this.

It doesn't mean that at all. He already knew Super Saiyan was his only option, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to reassure himself and the others by saying "I can go Super Saiyan, maybe", and Krillin wouldn't treat him as weaker than Buu.

No, he didn't. He literally came to this conclusion after revealing that he's unable to become Ultimate. Krillin never treated him like anything. Their ally being absent from the battle was the only thing commented on there.

Nor would Goku consider him less useful than Buu even after an additional 1-2 years of training. He also wouldn't have lost to someone who's much, much weaker than the Piccolo of one arc in the future, who is still below Mr. Buu (LowRyder proved this quite comprehensively).

Goku overlooked Gohan because he was no longer into fighting. Vegeta had no problem with the suggestion considering his potential.

It's that simple.

That Krillin wanted both Gohan and Boo to be there rather than just Gohan? Yeah, you're right. It is that simple.

He was just indulging in the standard Toei practice of attacking a foe he knew he had no chance against and then waiting to go Super Saiyan for a while. Nothing more.

He was trying to bring out his full-power while fighting Ginyu. That's when he realized he couldn't.

No, you're making stuff up again. He already acknowledged Super Saiyan as his best hope before the fight began, and wasn't even sure if he could do that.

That's entirely irrelevant. Super Saiyan isn't Ultimate.

What's silly is assuming Super Saiyan Gohan isn't as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan and is actually as strong as Ultimate Gohan even though the series goes out of its way to point out that he got weaker, never mentions the existence of this new "Ultimate Super Saiyan", and he flat-out says his "full power" is out of reach. Not "I can't access my full power unless I do this," just "I can't access my full power" period.

They function differently. Ultimate doesn't fuck his body up in Super, but Super Saiyan apparently does. That means they're fundamentally different than what Z showed us. Gohan also says Tagoma was hiding power that's equal to his own, which clearly shocks Piccolo. This means Ginyu would've been Ultimate Gohan's equal because we damn sure know Base Gohan couldn't handle Ginyu, or a holding-back Tagoma.

In Super? Do we? The timeline isn't at all specified in this series. All that's said is that "some time has passed" since everyone's memory of Buu was erased. It's intentionally vague.

So using the EoZ to prove anything is just....no.

Neither of these are proof. The first exchange simply means Krillin's more scared than he was during the Beerus fight, when he couldn't even sense the ki of the fighters in question, and when the villain wasn't anywhere near as ruthless as Freeza. The second is simply Whis saying they're much stronger than they were when they started training in their base forms, not their base forms are stronger than SSG Goku when he fought Beerus.

So Beers acknowledged the improvement of two guys who aren't even as strong as the level of (Super Saiyan 2 Rageta) power that made him use 10% of his power? But he wants to fight them again just because? Are you serious?

Another thing: Whis says Vegeta and Goku have reached a level where they can sense God Chi, though barely. How much God Chi was Super Saiyan 3 Goku sensing? Or Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta? Yeah, notta. What does this mean? Goku after merging with the Super Saiyan God power had gotten strong enough to sense it. Vegeta's six month training with Whis also took him to a level where he could sense God Chi. That means the two have eclipsed any previous level they were at. You have absolutely nothing proving this wrong.

Any assertion that base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than SSG is immediately debunked by the fact that apparently SS is still x50 stronger than their base, yet SSG Goku can still give ~10% Beerus a good fight. Plus Goku bragging that his SSGSS has the power of a Super Saiyan God. Plus Piccolo lasting more than one second against Frost. Plus, you know, everything else involving their base forms past the fight with Beerus.

Any assertion that Base Goku and Vegeta are as strong as Super Saiyan 3 or weaker is immediately debunked by the fact that they became powerful enough to sense God Chi before Whis trained them together. Show me BoG Super Saiyan 3 Goku sensing the power of the Gods anywhere. If you can't, then I guess you're wrong and Base Goku eclipsed that.

Good thing that has no bearing on the discussion.

You mentioned it

Because Toriyama wanted to draw a power-up sequence.

Sounds like a personal opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

Too be bad he didn't. Too bad he was already unsure if he could even go SS, to say nothing of Ultimate.

Ultimate isn't Super Saiyan. Get it now?

"There goes our only option to beat Freeza" is implicitly the meaning of the following statement, as Krillin had just indirectly said that Buu could handle Freeza.

No. It's saying they're in even deeper shit now that Boo isn't there. Roshi clarifies this for us when speaking on the amount of people available to fight. In Krillin's mind (before he realized Boo wouldn't be fighting with them, which also took place before it was revealed Gohan slacked), both Gohan and Boo were regarded as the strongest on the planet. Boo isn't there to fight, Gohan is. Why the fuck wouldn't he wonder where Boo is when he specifically had both Boo and Gohan in mind for the upcoming battle? You're using the most inopportune situation to separate Boo into his own tier when he was just paired with Gohan by the same damn guy a few mins before.

Let's follow your train of thought:

1) Krillin goes from "Thankfully we have Majin Boo and Gohan"

to:

2) Seeing Piccolo and Gohan gave Krillin some "motivation" while flying to the battlefield

to:

3) Krillin sees that Boo isn't there, but he's really saying that Gohan has no business there because he's weak as dogshit.

Your stance is really stupid and makes no sense.

A far better transition staying in context would be:

1) The power of Boo and Gohan leads Krillin to believe that they might be able to hold their own against Freeza and co until Goku and Vegeta gets back.
2) Krillin seeing that Gohan and Piccolo are going to fight gives him motivation for the upcoming battle. No comment on Gohan's diminished power has been made.
3) Krillin realizes that the other strongest guy on the planet isn't there after sensing the new power of Freeza. Still no comment on Gohan's diminished power.
4) With Boo and Gohan not being able to fight together, the battle is now going to be way harder than expected. Reiterated by Roshi.

More issues that your stance creates:

1) Krillin has figured out in a midst of a few mins that Gohan has lost the ability to become Ultimate, even though Krillin saw him do this literally months ago. He also realized on the trip to the battlefield that Gohan got weaker. Did he learn to read minds like Kaioshin to reach this conclusion?

2) Mr. Boo has gotten so strong that he's now comparable to Ultimate Gohan. Krillin somehow figured this out with no explanation, too.

3) Krillin having absolutely no reference of Freeza's new power goes into it believing Boo and Gohan can hold the fort until Goku and Vegeta comes back. That's a best case scenario. Krillin senses Freeza's complete change in power and completely eliminates Gohan (for no reason stated) out of the equation in terms of relevance for Boo, despite the fact that the same Gohan quickly came to mind with Boo as the ones who will fight until Goku and Vegeta arrive.

Your POV requires you to make silly assumptions (Krillin knowing Gohan lost his Ultimate power, Krillin somehow knowing the extent of Gohan's weakened power, Krillin thinking Mr. Boo has reached Ultimate Gohan's level from BoG) that are just....bad. And before you even try the "probably can become a Super Saiyan" rebuttal, Krillin's apparent disregard for Gohan happened well before we learn that Gohan is slacking, that he isn't entirely sure he can become Super Saiyan, and most importantly, that he no longer has the ability to become Ultimate.

In other words, what I said stands: First Form Freeza>Ultimate Gohan

If the above is true, then it also means Freeza>Mr. Boo

If you still want to pretend it's incorrect, tell me how Krillin somehow figured out that Gohan lost his Ultimate state? I'll gladly wait.

"Beat up", "fought evenly with", the point remains the same. Frost was stronger than base Goku/Vegeta yet not dimensions above Piccolo. Piccolo was weaker than Buu. Base Goku and Vegeta were at least as strong as 4th form Freeza.

Base Goku and Vegeta became powerful enough to sense God Chi before they were both trained by Whis. Frost is stronger than Freeza, who's stronger than Piccolo. All he did was use good strategy in that battle. His Makankosappo was the basis of his power. Saying a Frost that's battle worn isn't dimensions above Piccolo really means next to nothing.

Lame copouts like that don't work here. If Gohan was under the impression that he could go Ultimate the entire time, how does the preceding conversation where Mr. Buu is considered superior to him and Gohan himself is unsure if he can even use SS make any sense?

Boo was never considered superior. You can look back and see that they're grouped together as the only ones who can fight Freeza and co until Goku and Vegeta arrive. Boo's absence was significant because Krillin was counting on both of them being available for battle. Ultimate isn't Super Saiyan. One fucks his body, the other doesn't. If Super Saiyan was the only thing he intended on using, why in the world would he say he can't become Ultimate? Like, what is the point if it isn't a realization that he can't, therefore has to go for the next best thing?

Again, standard Toei fight sequence. He tries to fight Tagoma in base rather than trying to power up in any way.

Call it what you want. It confirms that Gohan is superior to Piccolo, as well as his inability to become Ultimate because he hasn't been training.

The thing is, he didn't even try to draw out his full power and then fail. He just rushed Tagoma in base, got beat up, and went SS.

He tried to draw it out during his battle with Ginyu and was unable to. It's stated.

No it isn't. It's mentioned as his only option. "Ultimate" was not never even considered as a hypothetical option. He says "I can still turn Super Saiyan... probably..." not "I can probably still turn Ultimate, and if not, I can definitely still turn Super Saiyan".

Again, Super Saiyan isn't Ultimate. What you're saying is it wasn't considered because it wasn't stated in the beginning. Guess what? It was stated when he was in the midst of taking on a more powerful Ginyu Tagoma.

Also, gotta love how even Herms pretty much confirms exactly what I'm saying:

Significance: More or less a confirmation that Gohan lost his Ultimate state, which he received in the Majin Boo arc. When he finds himself unable to tap into his full power, he resorts to Super Saiyan instead, which as we see is more than enough to handle Tagoma. Nothing to worry about, folks!

Thank you, Herms!

No, we don't know that actually, and considering the whole point of this scene is to establish that Freeza's power is nothing compared to this new guy's, that theory is more than a little absurd.

So now this is about the scene rather than direct statements on changes in power? You sure flip-flop a lot.

Gohan said his power was nothing compared to what he's capable of. The last thing said was Freeza and Cold better fight at full-power. Neither do. Freeza fires a Chi-Blast at Trunks and is immediately sliced in half afterwards. Where were the statements about Mecha Freeza's heightened Chi? There was no issue commenting on Trunks' Base and Super Saiyan power, right? Simply put: Mecha Freeza never reached full-power. Got any statements showing otherwise?

So, in other words, it was explicitly stated and shown to us that he was suppressed, which doesn't happen here at all. Gotcha.

Weren't you just assuming Mecha Freeza powered-up despite this being noted by no one?

Again, there's a difference between not being suppressed and "flexing" (hence why Vegeta showing off breaks Dodoria's scouter, yet his scouter doesn't shatter when "suppressed 1st form Freeza" is standing right there). None of them do any power-up or are noted to change their power levels.

Krillin said Vegeta has "broken through a new wall" of power after tussling with Freeza. In other words, he powered-up and showed power that no one knew he was capable of. Freeza saw all of them on his scouter when he was tracking them down, yet even he was shocked by Vegeta's power-up.

Still nowhere near x3. But okay, if that's not a good enough example: the difference between (suppressed) Goku and the Ginyus was a gargantuan difference, even though that was only x1.5. The difference between Nappa and Tenshinhan was gargantuan, and it was only around x2. Freeza going from 70% to 100% was considered a very large power-up. Et cetera. x2 is a big difference in this series.

Alright.

Your habit of refusing to concede anything and quickly changing arguments as they get debunked is getting tiring.

I've gladly conceded on some stuff a few pages back. The reason why I'm not doing it now is because there's no reason to.

It was quite clearly a power-up, since Vegeta, who can sense ki, goes from thinking he can win against Freeza to pissing himself with fear. And then Freeza proceeds to tear him apart, again, without doing any power-up.

It was quite clearly not:

Freeza: “I get just a little serious and raise my speed, and it seems that you can’t keep up with me…Are you really a Super Saiyan?...”

Freeza increased his speed. Vegeta lost his will to fight and got fucked. Simple. Piccolo can sense Chi and he questioned why Vegeta was so confident in taking on Freeza.

You keep saying this as if it means anything. It doesn't.

It means your attempts at drawing comparisons between them are obsolete.

If it was just a regular Super Saiyan transformation, he would have transformed immediately, rather than apparently steadily raising his power in base without transforming, before finally transforming.

My guess is he wanted to show Tarble the transformation in its entirety.

Because he had Super Saiyan.

He never intended to do become Super Saiyan. It was his last option.

Too bad that never happened.

Too bad it did, or you're going against things shown. You know, like Base Goku completely destroying Beers' attack.

The people who can actually sense ki said Buu and Gotenks could handle Freeza. Nothing proves this wrong.

Correction: Krillin said Gohan and Boo will be able to hold the fort until Goku and Vegeta arrive. When Krillin sees that Boo isn't there, Roshi says the situation is now worse that there's only five of them. The only other person I'm guessing you're referring to is..Gotenks? Really? The same guy that tried to fight Beers in Base? The same guy that got mollywhopped by Fat Boo after saying he was more than enough to take him down? The same Gotenks that said Super Boo was faking his reaction to his attacks?

Bulma's statement is worth less than nothing.

So is Gotenks' opinion. One is oblivious, the other is based on an assessment. Your bias POV doesn't change that.

[Speedster]

Whis with his staff going as quickly as he could got to a planet in 60 seconds Beerus then flies to his planet to the same planet Whis is on in 80 seconds therefore Beerus is comparable to Whis staff.

Oh my … as Whis would have said. I completely overlooked that Beerus was actually in his planet while Whis was travelling. I thought they were travelling together and Beerus was inside some sort of “special hyperspace cabin” waiting while trying to remember the name of the prophecy. I was with that impression because when Beerus was impatiently calling Whis, Whis seemed to respond to Beerus saying “There is still 2 minutes left, Lord Beerus”…. but in fact Whis was talking to himself! Also I didn't think Beerus, not only would travel that distance himself but also detect Whis on a random planet in the universe (unless of course he knew where Whis would go). OK he can sense Whis but from that distance? Is not as if Whis was flaring his Ki. But anyway you are absolutely right. Beerus was actually in his planet! So

-Beerus ordered Whis to go hunt him a dinosaur while he himself stayed back in his planet. He gave him a time limit of 3 minutes to come back with a dinosaur.
-After 1 minute. Beerus impatiently started calling Whis. Whis was still travelling and himself stated that 2 minutes had left to complete the task.
-After 2minutes 20 seconds. Whis after conversing with the alien would have taken actions to take the dinosaur and get back to Beerus’ planet in the remaining 40 seconds. But at that instant Beerus appears in the alien planet. This means that if Beerus had left his own planet when he started looking for Whis it have taken him only 1min20seconds (80 seconds) to cover the same distance that Whis took over a minute to cover.

In the worst case scenario for Beerus’ speed, Beerus flew immediately as soon as Whis stated that 2 minutes were remaining (this taking 80secods to arrive) and Whis could travel the returning distance in 40seconds (going full speed and assuming he wasn't doing that previously). So Beerus is at least half as fast as Whis stuff. Pretty sure though it is just Toei fucking up on this though as if Beerus is so fast he wouldn't rely so much on Whis transporting him.

[apex_pretador]

So Beerus is at least half as fast as Whis stuff. Pretty sure though it is just Toei fucking up on this though as if Beerus is so fast he wouldn't rely so much on Whis transporting him.

Isn't it possible that beerus is not capable of travelling long distances that fast (see goku's snake way crossing speed for the reference)

[HeroR]

From Herms on Twitter:

Beerus tells Goku not to interfere with Champa killing his fighters. His universe, his rules.

Well, there you have it. It doesn't really come any clearer than that. Beerus >= Champa >>> Hit >> SSJB-KKx10 Goku

Too many >> for Hit. From what I have observed, Goku is physically stronger and faster than Hit even as just a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but Hit has very good endurance and his time skipping keeps getting better. If Hit fought all out, he may have killed Goku, but Goku seemed confident that he could still win until Champa and Beerus argued too long and he missed his window. So, it's technically tie.

Champa and Beerus are obviously on the top along with Whis and Vados being their own tier.

[ekrolo2]

From Herms on Twitter:

Beerus tells Goku not to interfere with Champa killing his fighters. His universe, his rules.

Well, there you have it. It doesn't really come any clearer than that. Beerus >= Champa >>> Hit >> SSJB-KKx10 Goku

Too many >> for Hit. From what I have observed, Goku is physically stronger and faster than Hit even as just a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but Hit has very good endurance and his time skipping keeps getting better. If Hit fought all out, he may have killed Goku, but Goku seemed confident that he could still win until Champa and Beerus argued too long and he missed his window. So, it's technically tie.

Champa and Beerus are obviously on the top along with Whis and Vados being their own tier.

I'm probably going to come off as a dick but I always find it funny when people assume different attributes actually matter in Dragon Ball of all places. If Goku was stronger and faster than Hit, he'd defeat him with relative ease once he got around Time Leap and could land a blow on him. The guy with the larger power always wins unless you're a rule breaking freak like Botamo or Majin Boo.

[Marlowe89]

That interview was taken early this month and Toriyama has already planned far ahead, unless you forgot to read about the character related to Future (Arale). Anybody who says Goku surpassed Beerus has no clue what he/she is saying, and is directly contradicting Toriyama with their headcanon

No, the interview was just published earlier this month, and again, nobody is arguing that Goku surpassed Beerus with Kaioken (especially when Champa already made it clear that there are ways to win outside of overpowering Goku). Toriyama's statement will probably hold true for quite some time at least, but that's only because Goku is putting Kaioken aside.

There was nothing unambiguous about Hit crapping his pant when Champa threatened to kill him and saying Tokitoboshi won't work

Hit wasn't "crapping his pants" at all unless you're fond of exaggerating facial expressions. A better example of something that extreme would be Champa falling back to his seat in fear after getting glared at by a powered-up Goku and Hit.

[Chiki]

That interview was taken early this month and Toriyama has already planned far ahead, unless you forgot to read about the character related to Future (Arale). Anybody who says Goku surpassed Beerus has no clue what he/she is saying, and is directly contradicting Toriyama with their headcanon

There was nothing unambiguous about Hit crapping his pant when Champa threatened to kill him and saying Tokitoboshi won't work

I don't know why you keep repeating "Goku didn't surpass Beerus! Goku didn't surpass Beerus! Toriyama interview!" like a broken record. No one is saying that he did. I've tried to make this as plain as possible.

SSB x10 Goku might be stronger than Beerus, but due to the Kaioken's side-effects (time limit), Beerus would still defeat Goku. It's like when USS Trunks lost to Perfect Cell. USS Trunks is stronger than Beerus, but due to USS's side-effects (loss of speed), Cell would still defeat Trunks. To surpass someone, you need to actually be able to beat them in a fair fight. Logic

If Goku wants to surpass Beerus, he needs to come up with a way to deal with Beerus stalling his Kaioken. Perhaps Kaioken x20 would let Goku defeat Beerus before his Kaioken runs out of time. Or perhaps, Goku will get a new transformation like Super Saiyan White.

It's funny you can bring up Hit "crapping his pants" and conveniently ignore that Champa's reaction to a powered-up Hit and Goku was far more exaggerated. Logic

[VegettoEX]

These posts are out of control.

We heavily recommend against these tirades of single-quote back-and-forth arguments for a reason: they do not work. No-one is reading them the way you think and you're not making your points the way you think.

We have already stated (time and time again) how these types of strength-comparison conversations just don't seem to work in our community, whether that be our own fault for our inability to moderate them properly, or the community's own fault for not policing them to the standard they agreed to. Perhaps we're all at fault. The end result is the same, though: it looks embarrassing as you scroll through, with a constant slew of insults and gigantic walls of "nuh uh / yeah huh" nonsense posts.

This thread has very few chances left. The last thing I want is to have to shut down the entire scope of a discussion on principle, but it seems that's where we are heading there. It's up to everyone (the moderation team included) to not just believe, but actually showcase, that we're good enough to sustain it. Let's all work toward that, please.

(It's the same as everywhere else in this community: if you're not going to be a cool person, please keep your thoughts to yourself.)

[singsing]

Whis with his staff going as quickly as he could got to a planet in 60 seconds Beerus then flies to his planet to the same planet Whis is on in 80 seconds therefore Beerus is comparable to Whis staff.

Oh my … as Whis would have said. I completely overlooked that Beerus was actually in his planet while Whis was travelling. I thought they were travelling together and Beerus was inside some sort of “special hyperspace cabin” waiting while trying to remember the name of the prophecy. I was with that impression because when Beerus was impatiently calling Whis, Whis seemed to respond to Beerus saying “There is still 2 minutes left, Lord Beerus”…. but in fact Whis was talking to himself! Also I didn't think Beerus, not only would travel that distance himself but also detect Whis on a random planet in the universe (unless of course he knew where Whis would go). OK he can sense Whis but from that distance? Is not as if Whis was flaring his Ki. But anyway you are absolutely right. Beerus was actually in his planet! So

-Beerus ordered Whis to go hunt him a dinosaur while he himself stayed back in his planet. He gave him a time limit of 3 minutes to come back with a dinosaur.
-After 1 minute. Beerus impatiently started calling Whis. Whis was still travelling and himself stated that 2 minutes had left to complete the task.
-After 2minutes 20 seconds. Whis after conversing with the alien would have taken actions to take the dinosaur and get back to Beerus’ planet in the remaining 40 seconds. But at that instant Beerus appears in the alien planet. This means that if Beerus had left his own planet when he started looking for Whis it have taken him only 1min20seconds (80 seconds) to cover the same distance that Whis took over a minute to cover.

In the worst case scenario for Beerus’ speed, Beerus flew immediately as soon as Whis stated that 2 minutes were remaining (this taking 80secods to arrive) and Whis could travel the returning distance in 40seconds (going full speed and assuming he wasn't doing that previously). So Beerus is at least half as fast as Whis stuff. Pretty sure though it is just Toei fucking up on this though as if Beerus is so fast he wouldn't rely so much on Whis transporting him.

Why not? Beerus is lazy. I mean Freeza is far superior to every single one of his staff and he let them do stuff for him even though if he did it himself it'd be much faster. But in this case, it's a staff doing it better and faster than him. Beerus would absolutely let someone else do the work for him, especially when it's superior to his own.

[TheMikado]

Please don't get this shutdown guys. I stopped posting in here because its pretty much pointless with the way the narrative is written to where we literally have 4 or 5 different thoughts on power levels at this point. But I really enjoy reading the discussions. Lets all do better. It may be best to accept there can be no real consensus, even on basic power ranks in Super and there is enough evidence on the topic to support a multitude of conflicting arguments.

[Speedster]

So Beerus is at least half as fast as Whis stuff. Pretty sure though it is just Toei fucking up on this though as if Beerus is so fast he wouldn't rely so much on Whis transporting him.

Why not? Beerus is lazy. I mean Freeza is far superior to every single one of his staff and he let them do stuff for him even though if he did it himself it'd be much faster. But in this case, it's a staff doing it better and faster than him. Beerus would absolutely let someone else do the work for him, especially when it's superior to his own.

Well I thought of that before making my previous post but the problem with this logic is this. Are we supposed to believe that Beerus (the lazy cat) went all out when he did that feat? Or did he do it while using less than 1-10%? Because if the latter then he is much faster than Whis' stuff! If the former then it is sort of contradictory both to the character and the fact he was not using 100% not even during his battle with SSG Goku - not to mention all the thoeries suggesting the scaling is exponential. To me it seemed like a casual feat in his supressed form. Besides in the following episode Beerus was getting impatient and asked Whis if he can go any faster (so that they could reach their destination faster) to which Whis got offence and replied he is the fastest flyer in the universe as if it was by some good margin.

So Beerus is at least half as fast as Whis stuff. Pretty sure though it is just Toei fucking up on this though as if Beerus is so fast he wouldn't rely so much on Whis transporting him.

Isn't it possible that beerus is not capable of travelling long distances that fast (see goku's snake way crossing speed for the reference)

But the thing is that he did travel a pretty long distance that fast! Or do you mean a 20minute distance as opposed to a 1minute one? Maybe that explanation could do though not very convincingly given that when told a journey would last 20minutes it sounded too much. It is as if Beerus was used to travelling even shorter distances (2-3minute ones) with Whis.

[Bullza]

Posts are just too long to even bother reading at this point.

Can't you guys keep it short and simple or just agree to disagree or just move on to another topic.

This series is probably gonna continue for a good while and there's probably going to be plenty of things to talk about in this thread but you guys are gonna get it locked because you just won't let things go.

[Mattias_]

My two cents:

-Whis (15)
-Vados (14.9)
-Beerus (10)
-Shampa (9.9)
-Hit / Son Goku SSGSSJ (7.9)
-Vegetto SSJ (7.7)
-Vegeta SSGSSJ (7.6)
-Freezer Golden form (7.5)
-Shin Bu Gohan absorbed (6)
-Son Gohan (5.4)
-Gotenks SSJ 3 (5.1)
-Majin Bu (4)
-Cell perfect form (2.6)
-Magetta (2.4)
-Kyabe SSJ (2.3)
-Frost final form (2)
-Piccolo without weights (1.9)

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I apologize if my posts came off as offensive to anyone. I also apologize for the length of my posts.

I'm really curious as to how Goku's going to improve going forward. Kaio-Ken appeared to do a number on him, and he seemed pretty certain he was going to leave it alone for awhile. Knowing this, how will he go about gaining power now?