Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

Goku hyped up Boo well before he was aware of Frost's power.

That's not how hype statements work in shonen. Toriyama wouldn't give us a misleading statement about the power levels of characters relative to one another. It's a very common practice in shonen for characters to give hype statements.

Given that Buu wasn't able to participate in the tournament due to conveniently falling asleep, it's obvious that Toriyama wanted him out because he would have owned everyone barring Hit.

[pacz360]

Base goku destroying beerus attack in his fight already prove he's above anyone in the buu saga.

[pacz360]

Goku hyped up Boo well before he was aware of Frost's power.

That's not how hype statements work in shonen. Toriyama wouldn't give us a misleading statement about the power levels of characters relative to one another. It's a very common practice in shonen for characters to give hype statements.

Given that Buu wasn't able to participate in the tournament due to conveniently falling asleep, it's obvious that Toriyama wanted him out because he would have owned everyone barring Hit.

That doesn't change a thing buu has regeneration,transmutation ,absorbtion etc with guy like that of course goku would want him on the team not only that goku never knew how powerful u6 fighters were.

[Chiki]

Goku hyped up Boo well before he was aware of Frost's power.

That's not how hype statements work in shonen. Toriyama wouldn't give us a misleading statement about the power levels of characters relative to one another. It's a very common practice in shonen for characters to give hype statements.

Given that Buu wasn't able to participate in the tournament due to conveniently falling asleep, it's obvious that Toriyama wanted him out because he would have owned everyone barring Hit.

That doesn't change a thing buu has regeneration,transmutation ,absorbtion etc with guy like that of course goku would want him on the team not only that goku never knew how powerful u6 fighters were.

Nah, anyone even half as powerful as SSG (RoF FF Frieza, etc.) could have just knocked Buu out of the ring with one punch very easily.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You know, now that I think about it, considering Piccolo was able to gauge how strong Kaioshin was when they went face to face in the WMAT, it really now makes it seem to be that the threshold for how strong you need to be to sense Godly power is not that high considering Piccolo was able to pull it off in the original manga.

Then why couldn't a superior Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan sense Kaioshin and Kibito?

We could say Goku got stronger in all his forms, though. He can go SS and perhaps even SS2 and SS3. So, being able to feel the ki of gods in his base form doesn't necessarily mean he is stronger in that form than his previous SS3, for example.

Goku said Vegeta has acquired enough power to the point where he most likely surpassed him. This is without taking any transformations or anything into consideration, since he's just commenting on Base Vegeta. Whis later says the two must've realized that they have to focus on training their Base forms and avoiding transformations to make the improvements they need. The Super Saiyan 2 and 3 forms are ditched altogether after BoG.

Base Goku still destroyed Beers' attack, and the same Goku in Super Saiyan 3 was effortlessly defeated by a Beers using less than 10% of his power.

That's not how hype statements work in shonen. Toriyama wouldn't give us a misleading statement about the power levels of characters relative to one another. It's a very common practice in shonen for characters to give hype statements.

Nor would he tell us that Goku is going to focus solely on his power in Base and Super Saiyan if it wasn't true. Goku did just that while training with Whis, hence the incredible power-up he experienced. Goku trains in the rosat for 3 yrs and is even more powerful than before.

Given that Buu wasn't able to participate in the tournament due to conveniently falling asleep, it's obvious that Toriyama wanted him out because he would have owned everyone barring Hit.

Boo never fought, so how he would've did against the opposition is just your opinion. My belief that Frost would've easily stomped Mr. Boo is my opinion, too. What's a fact is Goku isn't a psychic, so he wouldn't have known what the U6 warriors were capable of. Let's stay in-universe and judge things based off that.

[Chiki]

Nor would he tell us that Goku is going to focus solely on his power in Base and Super Saiyan if it wasn't true. Goku did just that while training with Whis, hence the incredible power-up he experienced. Goku trains in the rosat for 3 yrs and is even more powerful than before.

Huh? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

Boo never fought, so how he would've did against the opposition is just your opinion. My belief that Frost would've easily stomped Mr. Boo is my opinion, too. What's a fact is Goku isn't a psychic, so he wouldn't have known what the U6 warriors were capable of. Let's stay in-universe and judge things based off that.

Why do you think Toriyama removed Buu from the tournament because he fell asleep during the exam? He wouldn't do that just for no reason at all. So I gotta here your explanation for this.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Huh? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

You said AT wouldn't hype Boo up, I said AT wouldn't tell us Goku is going to master his Base/Super Saiyan to the point where he gets a lot stronger. In other words, the Base Goku that fought Frost is a further improved Base Goku than the one that fought Freeza. Knowing this, unless you're going to say Mr. Boo is superior to Goku, Frost is clearly above Mr. Boo.

Why do you think Toriyama removed Buu from the tournament because he fell asleep during the exam? He wouldn't do that just for no reason at all. So I gotta here your explanation for this.

Why did he remove Boo from the Freeza fight? Because he wanted to. Why does there need to be an underlying reason why?

[Lord Beerus]

You know, now that I think about it, considering Piccolo was able to gauge how strong Kaioshin was when they went face to face in the WMAT, it really now makes it seem to be that the threshold for how strong you need to be to sense Godly power is not that high considering Piccolo was able to pull it off in the original manga.

Then why couldn't a superior Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan sense Kaioshin and Kibito?

...I honestly have no idea. It makes zero sense that Piccolo could gauge how strong Kaioshin was and Goku, Vegeta and Gohan couldn't. Maybe it had something to do with Kami being within him. But then if take that into consideration, it make even less sense, because then the threshold required for anyone to be able to sense Godly ki/power would be just 220.

Power levels are bullshit.

[Chiki]

Huh? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

You said AT wouldn't hype Boo up, I said AT wouldn't tell us Goku is going to master his Base/Super Saiyan to the point where he gets a lot stronger. In other words, the Base Goku that fought Frost is a further improved Base Goku than the one that fought Freeza. Knowing this, unless you're going to say Mr. Boo is superior to Goku, Frost is clearly above Mr. Boo.

Why do you think Toriyama removed Buu from the tournament because he fell asleep during the exam? He wouldn't do that just for no reason at all. So I gotta here your explanation for this.

Why did he remove Boo from the Freeza fight? Because he wanted to. Why does there need to be an underlying reason why?

Well, I think the two base theory is true, so I think he turned off his SSG power for Frost but not for Frieza.

Of course there has to be a reason. There's a reason for everything. Toriyama elaborately set up the plot so that Buu would get hyped up, take the exam and fall asleep. Why do you think he did that? He didn't just set up Buu falling asleep during the exam for no reason, you know.

I'm sure he removed Buu from the Frieza fight because he would be too strong for everyone except Frieza himself at that point. I'm also sure he removed Buu from the tournament because he would be too strong for everyone except Hit.

[Khin]

^ He removed Buu to keep him from getting destroyed and humiliated in the tournament ? There's hundreds of theories to think what's the reason Buu was removed.I personally just see it as a mix of a gag scene and Toriyama just not giving a single shit about Buu.

Because then the threshold required for anyone to be able to sense Godly ki/power would be just 220.

Dende was weaker than Satan,and he can sense Beerus.Kaio and Elder Kaioshin can also sense Beerus and those two are nothing special power-wise.It's been clear that fellow gods can sense the likes of Beerus and Kaioshin even if they're weak in terms of raw power.

[HeroR]

As far as Kaio-ken is concerned, I really wouldn't be surprised, if that was just another Toei invention. They already did so in the afterlife filler after all and it would line up with how much fanservice there seems to be in the anime, what with Piccolo's Makankossapo & Vegeta's Gallick Gun and Final Flash vs. Magetta, so Goku also got to use one of his old moves. It'll be interesting to see how the manga handles it.

Of course as far as power levels are concerned it'd still mean, that SSB Goku/Vegeta are going to be less than a tenth of Beerus' power in the anime.

Not sure why you think the big climax of of Hit and Goku's fights was something Toei came up with instead of Toriyama. Using old techniques like Makankossapo, Gallick Gun, and Final Flash is one thing, but Goku not only used the Kaio-Ken, he explained why he didn't used it in a long time and why it works with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It was nothing like the Pikkon's fight where Goku used it and it was over in seconds with no fanfare.

This is just like when some thought for certain Piccolo losing to Frost was Toei idea until they saw the manga.

[

I still don't buy Base Goku being above Mr Boo. I just don't think there is enough concrete evidence to support the theory.

Goku's base is way above Mr. Buu and most likely Vegetto. He fought Beerus in his base and took hits from him when Super Saiyan 3 went down in two hits without Beerus even trying. When Mr. Buu fought Beerus, he went down almost just as fast and only lasted as long as he did thanks to his healing factor. And Goku's base has only gotten greater since he trained with Whis. He's far above the levels seen in the Buu Saga without even going into a normal Super Saiyan.

[Lord Beerus]

Straight from EmmaWinters:

Context: Monaka is next.

　15:19 | Beerus: "Do you realize what you've done?!"
　15:23 | Goku: "Even if we'd kept goin', I woulda run out of time for the Kaio-ken and lost anyway."
　15:40 | Goku: "Look, we've still got Monaka, remember? He's even stronger than me!"
　15:45 | Whis: "Oh, that's right~!"
　16:51 | Beerus: "It's hopeless. It's all over!"

Significance: Goku claims that he probably would have lost anyway, had he not forfeit. Additionally, Goku is still under the impression that Monaka is the strongest man on their team.

Context: Goku goes over to his friends.

　18:50 | Galactic King: "Are you all right? That was a good battle."
　18:53 | Goku: "It's all thanks to you, Galactic King."
　18:55 | Goku: "If you hadn't told me about the time-skip, I'd have been completely helpless."
　18:59 | Goku: "Thanks!"
　19:04 | Galactic King: "That's my winkie."

Significance: Without the Galactic King who explained Hit's technique, Goku probably would have fared similarly to Vegeta. And as many fans have doubtlessly speculated, the Galactic King does indeed have a winkie. On top of that, Goku shakes it firmly.

And there you have it folks, Hit officially stronger than SSJB Goku, and it's even further stated had he not found out about Hit's Time-Skip technique, he would have gotten stomped like Vegeta did.

[Hugo Boss]

We could say Goku got stronger in all his forms, though. He can go SS and perhaps even SS2 and SS3. So, being able to feel the ki of gods in his base form doesn't necessarily mean he is stronger in that form than his previous SS3, for example.

Goku said Vegeta has acquired enough power to the point where he most likely surpassed him. This is without taking any transformations or anything into consideration, since he's just commenting on Base Vegeta. Whis later says the two must've realized that they have to focus on training their Base forms and avoiding transformations to make the improvements they need. The Super Saiyan 2 and 3 forms are ditched altogether after BoG.

Okay, for the sake of Vegeta, I can put SS2 and SS3 aside, but I still don't see the nexus between Goku commenting on Base Vegeta's ki and that somehow implying Base Vegeta is more powerful than any form Goku had up to that point. They are practically even in the same forms from then on (if one of them transforms the other is surpassed and vice-versa). Also, even if they figure SS would get in their way during training, they could still use it, right? So, there is no problem in thinking Goku surpass his former SS3 level with his new SS level.

[Chiki]

^ He removed Buu to keep him from getting destroyed and humiliated in the tournament ? There's hundreds of theories to think what's the reason Buu was removed.I personally just see it as a mix of a gag scene and Toriyama just not giving a single shit about Buu.

Nice try, but Goku thinks that Buu is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo defeated a weakened FF Frost.

Hit officially stronger than SSJB Goku, and it's even further stated had he not found out about Hit's Time-Skip technique, he would have gotten stomped like Vegeta did.

Don't confuse strength with technique. Hit is strong, but his strength mostly comes from Tokitobashi (this was confirmed in ep 39 when he said that his power can't go up; only the length of his Tokitobashi can).

but I still don't see the nexus between Goku commenting on Base Vegeta's ki and that somehow implying Base Vegeta is more powerful than any form Goku had up to that point.

Goku said that Vegeta's ki had a "completely different quality" to it. The only way to explain this is SSG power.

[Alee9977]

You know, now that I think about it, considering Piccolo was able to gauge how strong Kaioshin was when they went face to face in the WMAT, it really now makes it seem to be that the threshold for how strong you need to be to sense Godly power is not that high considering Piccolo was able to pull it off in the original manga.

Then why couldn't a superior Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan sense Kaioshin and Kibito?

...I honestly have no idea. It makes zero sense that Piccolo could gauge how strong Kaioshin was and Goku, Vegeta and Gohan couldn't. Maybe it had something to do with Kami being within him. But then if take that into consideration, it make even less sense, because then the threshold required for anyone to be able to sense Godly ki/power would be just 220.

Power levels are bullshit.

Why are you assuming you need to have a determined power level to sense godly ki?
Although it seems it works differently on each god, because Goku was able to sense Kami, Dende and King Kai's ki when he hasn't reached SSG.

[Lord Beerus]

Don't confuse strength with technique. Hit is strong, but his strength mostly comes from Tokitobashi (this was confirmed in ep 39 when he said that his power can't go up; only the length of his Tokitobashi can).

And yet he was able to withstand the SSJB-KKx10 assault from Goku without any major damage apart from being fatigued. All Hit's Time-Skip ability does is freeze time. That's it. The amount of damage he can dish out when time is frozen is solely dependant on how strong he is on his own merit. If he's not at least as strong as SSJB Goku, then when time is frozen, he's not going to be able to do shit to Goku. It would be like punching like a brick wall.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Okay, for the sake of Vegeta, I can put SS2 and SS3 aside, but I still don't see the nexus between Goku commenting on Base Vegeta's ki and that somehow implying Base Vegeta is more powerful than any form Goku had up to that point. They are practically even in the same forms from then on (if one of them transforms the other is surpassed and vice-versa). Also, even if they figure SS would get in their way during training, they could still use it, right? So, there is no problem in thinking Goku surpass his former SS3 level with his new SS level.

Well, it's under the impression that Goku has also become more powerful than he's ever been. I don't know where you stand with Goku after the Beers battle, but I think he merged with the power and kept it. However, unlike the battle with Beers, I don't think he was actually Super Saiyan God level entirely. I think he was just a lot more powerful than before. With Whis' special training, it allowed Goku to not only gain a lot of power, but also to combine his God Power with his Super Saiyan to become Super Saiyan Blue. My personal fanon.

There's nothing wrong with believing Goku needs Super Saiyan to surpass his Super Saiyan 3. I personally disagree because Base Goku's full-effort is enough for him to destroy Beers' attack. To me, that puts him on a different realm than anything he's ever shown as a Super Saiyan 3. If Vegeta could at least match what Goku did back then, I wouldn't have him weaker than any version of Goku before that point. Goku's reaction to his power seems to imply Vegeta has become a totally new person based on his Chi alone. Usually that means the power-up was pretty drastic. If the Chi is not even beyond the super powerful beings from way back in the Boo saga, it just seems like an empty quote to me. I mean, even by Boo saga standards, Goku got left in the dust.

[dbgtFO]

Don't confuse strength with technique. Hit is strong, but his strength mostly comes from Tokitobashi (this was confirmed in ep 39 when he said that his power can't go up; only the length of his Tokitobashi can).

And yet he was able to withstand the SSJB-KKx10 assault from Goku without any major damage apart from being fatigued. All Hit's Time-Skip ability does is freeze time. That's it. The amount of damage he can dish out when time is frozen is solely dependant on how strong he is on his own merit. If he's not at least as strong as SSJB Goku, then when time is frozen, he's not going to be able to do shit to Goku. It would be like punching like a brick wall.

Or it's just good ol' video-game logic. I certainly wouldn't say things have to be a certain way for things to happen like they do.

Also rant incoming!

Not sure why you think the big climax of of Hit and Goku's fights was something Toei came up with instead of Toriyama. Using old techniques like Makankossapo, Gallick Gun, and Final Flash is one thing, but Goku not only used the Kaio-Ken, he explained why he didn't used it in a long time and why it works with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It was nothing like the Pikkon's fight where Goku used it and it was over in seconds with no fanfare.

I already stated why: fanservice.
And them offering an explanation does not mean it has to come from Toriyama, they could just simply know their stuff or at least want to justify their bullshit.

Really I have for a long time questioned everything that is written by King Ryu(don't know if it's an individual or a group), because from my point of view it seems like they try to explain concepts in a way they haven't previously in Dragon Ball. The added stuff during Whis' training with Goku and Vegeta, the whole deal with the universe destroying fist bumps(though that at least could have been from Toriyama as it was also in the manga), the sorta/kinda explanation for why Gohan can only go Super Saiyan in RoF Arc, when the movie it's based on, offered up nothing, Botamo sending attacks to a different dimension, rather than just having a body, that's slippery/or whatever the fuck it was, as shown in the manga and implied by Toriyama's character description and of course all the fanservice.

When we don't have the full story, it's hard to tell who actually came up with what and that's why I'm personally refraining for crediting Toriyama for every plot point, until more evidence arrives.
Of course one could say the climax of the fight is a pretty big plot point to go and be making changes in, but I wouldn't put it past Toei writers to go with something a bit more spectacular, as has been the case in Super and maybe Heroes also needed a new form for Goku? We may never know.. or maybe we will, if that guy on that tv show can hold up a Toriyama outline for the first episode, then maybe it will all get released later on like RoF's script was? A bit unusal perhaps, but already releasing the entire RoF script to the public was a pretty big WTF moment, at least for me! So there's hope, maybe..!

Also, two base theory for the win!
In terms of power comparisons, this arc has really been lacking. I genuinely thought at the very least something would be said about SSB Vegeta and Goku by Champa and Vados, but they remained quiet. If Piccolo really is supposed to have powered up, then one would expect it to be pointed out, but no one said anything. If Frost, Magetta and Cabba are supposed to be some beasts, that could trash any form of Majin Buu with their pinkies, one would expect some hype for their power, but again absolutely nothing(well the manga does have Vados state Frost is their strongest or something like that).
Even the peanut gallery barely says anything power wise, so for us debating this stuff, we've basically been trolled. It's like things have been simplified even more and they are not preoccupied with that, because they just want to tell a good story. One might say that's how it should be, but still.
Also I wonder how much merchandising has anything to do with this. The whole reintroducing the regular Super Saiyan for starters just seems weird to me and out of place especially with the nonsense that now SSB drains their stamina. For me it really seems like base with the power of SS God was discontinued, I can always argue that Goku and Vegeta didn't have their tell-tale white auras, thus they were just normal base and not God base(not that different from that other "popular" debate ).
It seems fitting going back to the whole notion of Base Saiyans < Freeza established by BoG and with the fact Cabba is not even a Super Saiyan and Frost doesn't seem to have trained, as if we are seeing a Universe, where none of the lower-realm beings of the universe, except Hit, neither needed nor aquired power anywhere close to cosmically powerful threats like Majin Buu, and certainly not Super Saiyan God.

I refuse to believe Cabba is anywhere near that power, because he hasn't even turned Super Saiyan yet and is weaker than his version of Freeza, drawing more parallels with Namek Arc Saiyans than post BoG Saiyans.
Also SSB or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should by definition require a Base Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, thus making the Super Saiyan they use in the Champa Arc just normal Super Saiyan, but given how frustratingly ambiguous the japanese language apparently is, I can't even claim that for a fact, if the line in question can be translated differently.

It's funny how it's so ambiguous, when Toriyama himself says he wants things to be simple, but there's nothing simple about it, if people can get different interpretations out of it, instead of coming to the exact same conclusion. That's why numbers are so good for these kind of issues in a way some people just don't realize. It's a shame.
It should have just been worded as: "This is what happens, when a Saiyan, with the power of Super Saiyan God, transforms into a Super Saiyan."
Simple as you like, there'd be no ambiguity about whether or not SSGSS was stronger than SSG or not and you'd be establishing: when base = SSG; going SS = SSGSS, Super Saiyan God's Super Saiyan.

Dammit Toriyama and Toei why do you have to make debating so hard for your average DB power level debater
/half-assed rant.

[Khin]

Another implication that Hit and Goku are still weaker than Beerus and Champa.

Context: Monaka is next.

　15:19 | Beerus: "Do you realize what you've done?!"
　15:23 | Goku: "Even if we'd kept goin', I woulda run out of time for the Kaio-ken and lost anyway."
　15:40 | Goku: "Look, we've still got Monaka, remember? He's even stronger than me!"
　15:45 | Whis: "Oh, that's right~!"

So Goku believes that Monaka is still stronger than him.Meaning SSBKKx10 Goku < Monaka in Goku's mind.Monaka should be slightly weaker than Beerus going by how Whis hyped him.

Nice try, but Goku thinks that Buu is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo defeated a weakened FF Frost.

Says who ? And don't tell me it comes from the anime because i follow the manga for the powerscaling for the Champa Arc [Unless the chapter is yet to be released] ,since it's more consistent and closer to Toriyama's script.

[namekiansaiyan]

With Buu's power level I doubt we will ever get an answer due to him never fighting and I do not see him fighting in the future as I think Toriyama does not like using him as for 2 arcs in a row he has made excuses for him not to fight.