Humans...do they ever reach the level of Super Saiya-jin?

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:39 pm

Beelz wrote:I absolutly completely disagree with that. Just because Tenshinhan is human does not mean he can't reach or even surpass Freezas strength.

I tend to agree with your position, but just out of curiosity....

Beelz wrote:I mean obviously with the arrival of Babidi we are introduced to characters just as strong and stronger than Freeza who were alive at the same time as Freeza.

...who are these guys? Kaioshin? Dabura?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:13 pm

To tell the truth, we only ever see people from the North Galaxy. There's no telling what may lay within the South, East, or West galaxies. Possibly someone who could have torn Frieza apart without even trying, much like Mirai no Trunks did. I mean, Pikkon was quite the powerhouse, even though he'd been dead for sometime.

As for Humans surpassing Frieza... that's quite iffy. I used to think that, by series end, Tien would have been at at least 20 million. But now-a-days I tend to think he never broke the million mark. Humans, as a race, have much greater potential than any other race, including the Saiya-jins. Its just that they start off so much weaker and have a much harder time gaining strength. I've no dobut that, after several thousand years of training on the Grand Kai's world that Tien could easily surpass 100 million. But while in the living world? Never. His mortal body would never be able to take the strain of the training needed.

And as for the Olibu bit, no. Just no. Yamcha would never be able to touch him in a real fight. Olibu is at least over five million if he was able to go toe to toe with Pikkon. (Note that Pikkon still had on his wieghts and had yet to power up any. I don't even think Pikkon ever hit his full power while fighting Goku either.)

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:33 pm

James R. Cadwell wrote:
Beelz wrote:I mean obviously with the arrival of Babidi we are introduced to characters just as strong and stronger than Freeza who were alive at the same time as Freeza.
...who are these guys? Kaioshin? Dabura?

We learned of them even earlier, if you think of King Kold. Toriyama just wasn't thinking ahead, considering even Freeza would have known about that one.

Of course, it's just a thing people do. He shows it again in Neko Majin Z 3. "I thought you said you were the strongest in the universe..." It's not necessarily a plothole.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:41 pm

Nope, it's called arrogance. Vegeta demonstrates that quite often.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:33 am

I don't know about SSJs. But I'm sure that the humans reached Freeza's level. Why?

During early android Saga, just after Yamcha has his ki drained by the androids, Piccolo, Goku and Tenshinhan get ready to face the androids. Trunks stated that the Androids were stronger than Freeza. So, Tenshinhan thinks he can fight against something stronger than Freeza.

Also, he makes no comment about how he knows he'll lose or anything like that. He simply gets ready to face things stronger than Freeza.

Another fact that can be used to back up that Tenshinhan(Android Saga) is stronger than Freeza, is that Tenshinhan stated that Caos wasn't there because he wasn't ready for that kind of battle. So, he's its implied that Tenshinhan is there because he is ready for that kind of fight.

True, actually, he wasn't. But he thought that he was when he only knew that they were stronger than Freeza. So Tenshinhan(Android Saga) >, =, or, at least, <(by a small amount) than Freeza.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:52 am

Yamcha thought he was strong enough too and he got impaled.

Following your logic though, I agree that Tenshinhan became stronger than Cyborg Freeza, or at least Freeza on Namek, where as Chaozu was probably at Freeza's first form stage of strength (500,000 to 530,000PL). For a rough comparison, Chaozu was 1/3 of Tenshinhan's strength in the Saiyan Saga, and I think that stayed consistant up until the android saga. I'd place Yamcha at Freeza's second form (ie: 1 million PL)

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:17 pm

You're giving the Humans quite a bit more credit than I do. I mean, the oly way for them to gain in strength is through training, the don't have the Saiya-jin 'power-up' trait or their ability to much more easily gain in power. I can't really see them gaining that kind of power without some external force aiding them.

I don't know, stuff like the Guru (it's easier to spell, so sue me) power-up, or the Kaio-ken maybe. I'll agree that the Shin Kikiho holds a lot of power, especially new the end of the series, but other than that...

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:58 pm

Dayspring wrote:Yamcha thought he was strong enough too and he got impaled.

Following your logic though, I agree that Tenshinhan became stronger than Cyborg Freeza, or at least Freeza on Namek, where as Chaozu was probably at Freeza's first form stage of strength (500,000 to 530,000PL). For a rough comparison, Chaozu was 1/3 of Tenshinhan's strength in the Saiyan Saga, and I think that stayed consistant up until the android saga. I'd place Yamcha at Freeza's second form (ie: 1 million PL)

So Chaozu's power level multiplied by about one thousand over the four years between the Saiya-jin Saga and the appearance of the "Artificial Humans"? I don't think that Chaozu can increase his strength at a greater rate than the Saiya-jin or Piccolo, so you'd also have to multiply their powers by a similar factor. Then you'd wind up with Piccolo's power level being around one billion and Goku's normal form having close to three hundred million.

I doubt Chaozu managed better than a few thousand by the time he completed his three year training.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:55 pm

hum... the problem with people getting stronger in db is that it's really inconsistent.

Goku is supposed to be really talented when compared to the humans, but the humans got more from Kamisama's training(and only one year of that) than Goku did in three years.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:07 pm

Neon Z wrote:hum... the problem with people getting stronger in db is that it's really inconsistent.

Goku is supposed to be really talented when compared to the humans, but the humans got more from Kamisama's training(and only one year of that) than Goku did in three years.

I assumed that the humans had more intensive training over that single year than Goku did during his stay with Kami. After all, they had a precise objective -- become powerful enough to defeat the Saiya-jin before their arrival. Goku was basically just training for his own benefit.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:22 pm

Actually, Kami was training Goku to fight Piccolo so, yeah, he had an objective, become stronger than Piccolo.

What I think gave the Humans the greater boost was numbers, there were four people (Tien, Chaotzu, Krillin, and Yamcha) training instead of just Goku self training himself. It's only logical that, if you're working with others who can give you a really good workout, you'll get stronger than if you were 'shadow boxing' and just doing push-ups and the like.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:29 pm

Xyex wrote:Actually, Kami was training Goku to fight Piccolo so, yeah, he had an objective, become stronger than Piccolo.

Goku was already stronger than Piccolo.

Xyex wrote:What I think gave the Humans the greater boost was numbers, there were four people (Tien, Chaotzu, Krillin, and Yamcha) training instead of just Goku self training himself. It's only logical that, if you're working with others who can give you a really good workout, you'll get stronger than if you were 'shadow boxing' and just doing push-ups and the like.

Well, Goku had Mr. Popo, didn't he?

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:35 pm

Kami was preparing Goku against Ma Jr. who somehow was born stronger than Daimao.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:40 pm

Yeah, Ma Jr., Piccolo, same thing. And Popo would have been fine for a few months, and then Goku would have gotten a lot stronger than him and got nothing out of training with him.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:07 pm

Wasn't Mr Popo's strength level a bit inconsistent throughout the course of the show? How strong was he?

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:21 pm

Seriously, in the fight with Daimao we saw Goku pretty much toe to toe with the guy. Then after the fight we see that this Mr. Popo was emmensly stronger than both Goku and Daimao. That being said Popo would have been stronger than the humans when they received their training from Kami in preperation for the fight against the saiyans. So why didn't Popo join in with their training and help everyone fight Vegeta and Nappa?

TGDweezl · Post by **TGDweezl** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:05 pm

On Tien and humans: I don't think any amount of training would bring them close to SSJ. Tien, other than Krillin seems to be a consistent trainer. Let's not forget when the Ginyu Force arrived on King Kai's planet where Tien, Piccolo and Yamucha had little difficulty taking care of them. Yamucha's a big-time slacker so he'd never get that strong in his life. I thought Tien played more of a "decoy" in the Cell and Buu Series. But I'd say he was strong but not anywhere close to a SSJ Goku.

On to Popo...what IS he anyways? And his power is kinda off a bit. I mean he does defend himself quite well when Goten and Trunks attack him by mistake. He didn't seem to have a problem there yet was easily caught by Garlic Jr.'s cronies.

I dunno. I'm all kinds of confused now. @.@

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:20 pm

I always hate mentioning this...Garlic Jr. was Toei crap and I mean CRAP. How they came up with most ofthe stuff in that saga i'll never know but I do know that it was horrible. Oh yeah the Humans fighting the Ginyu's was Toei filler as well. Still even though the Garlic Jr. stuff never actually happened in Toriyamas manga I always found it odd that Toriyama named Kuririns daughter after Marron-chan in the filler. Cooky stuff no?

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:28 am

TGDweezl wrote:
On to Popo...what IS he anyways? And his power is kinda off a bit. I mean he does defend himself quite well when Goten and Trunks attack him by mistake. He didn't seem to have a problem there yet was easily caught by Garlic Jr.'s cronies.

He's a genie or something.

Goten and Trunks never attacked him, and there was never a Garlic Jr., so don't bother about that.

As for his power:

Daimaou < Popo < God < Ma Jr.

Simple as that.

TGDweezl · Post by **TGDweezl** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:02 am

If I'm not mistaken in the Buu Saga when Popo went to go get Goten and Trunks to start the fusion training he found them in some dining room eating. Trunks and Goten panicked and attacked Popo....I maybe wrong on it but I think I saw that in the series.

Yeah, I know fillers suck but what can ya do? I'm just trying to make a point that's all.