The latest manga chapter was scanlated and Vegeta was indeed unable to lift 1,000 tons as a Super Saiyan.
Which is pretty contradictory with the anime when they can lift these things in base form no problem.
Neither scene happened in the anime. So this is kinda like another 40 ton thing isn't it? Or even Goku wearing a 250 pound shirt in DB when he could push a boulder that would weigh dozens or even hundreds of tons.
The numbers just don't match the feats at all. If they can't lift 1,000 tons as a Super Saiyan then they shouldn't be able to lift 20 tons in Base but Vegeta was supposed to weigh 18 tons in 300x gravity back in the Android saga and he trained in it for 3 years and they've become much more powerful since.
Says who ? And don't tell me it comes from the anime because i follow the manga for the powerscaling for the Champa Arc [Unless the chapter is yet to be released] ,since it's more consistent and closer to Toriyama's script.
Goku went for Buu first instead of Piccolo because Buu is stronger than Piccolo. If according to you, Piccolo was much stronger than Buu, Goku would have asked Piccolo to join the tourney first.
The anime do tend to give the characters bigger feats of strength and speed than the manga(also pre Super) and given how much of the Super anime seems to be fanservice, I don't see what's so surprising, that we'll eventually get to the point where the two flat out contradict each other feat wise.
Really like it was joked about all those months ago, when the first episode aired, it's like they watched ScrewAttack's Goku vs Superman videos and decided to amp up the characters' strength as much as possible
Bullza wrote:The numbers just don't match the feats at all. If they can't lift 1,000 tons as a Super Saiyan then they shouldn't be able to lift 20 tons in Base but Vegeta was supposed to weigh 18 tons in 300x gravity back in the Android saga and he trained in it for 3 years and they've become much more powerful since.
Manga wise we never do get it confirmed that Vegeta actually did train in 300Gs; in Buu Arc and BoG arc 150Gs is mentioned and nothing more.
And so it happens, that Super Saiyan Vegeta not being capable of lifting 1,000 tons actually hugely supports my "Champa Arc Base Saiyans are barely stronger than BoG Arc Base Saiyans" opinion
One can claim that Magetta is also applying extra force, but it can't be too much, as the reason given for why Vegeta can't lift him is because of his mass, not because he's applying ridiculous amount of force to prevent Vegeta from lifting him.
It's like Toei (like the fans) understand more than Toriyama how strong Goku should be. When Goku fought Kid Buu he pushed a mountain apart as a Super Saiyan which does make sense considering how strong he was already as a kid. Him being unable to lift 40 tons makes no sense though especially when shortly afterward he plucked a boulder out the ground like a tomato.
It was strange how they went backwards with the Gravity Machine too, Vegeta training in 300x gravity made sense but him training in 150x gravity as a Super Saiyan no less doesn't.
Vegeta said the weighted suit was more intense than the Gravity Machine so it must add more weight than 18 tons and he did 50,000 push ups on his thumb.
None of the numbers have ever fit the anime or even the manga.
Bullza wrote:The numbers just don't match the feats at all.
To be fair, that's nothing new in this form of media in general. Whenever shonen mangaka draw large objects to show off a character's strength, they're generally not engaging themselves in specific calcs.
In my opinion the numbers are definitely more "canon" than the feats/calcs because the former is an objective representation of what the author actually intended to convey.
Why do you guys care about lifting feats that never been db forte not only that was in the manga not in the anime which the anime is primary canon so it don't mean anything.
Well the anime takes precedence over the manga and the anime shows them to be able to easily left well over 1,000 tons so it shouldn't be as bad as the 40 ton thing but I'm sure I'll be seeing the odd comment here and there about how they can't even lift 1,000 tons as Super Saiyan from now on.
Anyway I watched the latest episode and it would seem like Goku and Hit were equal but like Goku said in the long run Hit would have won. Also yeah Champa and Beerus are definitley stronger than any of the combatants though maybe not by an extreme amount.
Also if that Zeno is just a King instead of a God then hopefully he isn't too powerful and that perhaps the bodyguards are instead.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:He could sense Beers' power. As for Kibitoshin, he definitely has God Power. Goku was unable to sense him or Kibito at all during the Boo saga. Later when Goku feels Gohan's Chi on the Kaioshin world, he teleports there and is surprised to see Kaioshin and Kibito there. When Kaioshin was about to fight Piccolo, Vegeta said they weren't able to sense his power the entire time. When Kibito was about to fight Gohan, he was judged on his looks instead of power.
You know, now that I think about it, considering Piccolo was able to gauge how strong Kaioshin was when they went face to face in the WMAT, it really now makes it seem to be that the threshold for how strong you need to be to sense Godly power is not that high considering Piccolo was able to pull it off in the original manga.
Piccolo never sensed kaioshin.
We know SS > Kaiohsin. If piccolo literally quit due to "fear of power gap" then he wouldn't bother entering the tourney.
The scene gives more indication that piccolo somehow realized that he is a top level god.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Spoiler:
apex_pretador wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Does Kibitoshin have Godly ki to even begin with? I mean, if I recall correctly, in the manga Piccolo was able to tell gauge just how much stronger Supreme Kai was in comparison to him.
.
Piccolo didn't sense kaioshin, no one ever did sense kaioshin.
herms wrote:Minute: 6
Context: After Goku has become Super Saiyan God
Gohan: "I can't sense dad's ki at all."
Whis: "That's fine. After all, the ki a god emits cannot be sensed by ordinary humans."
Gohan: "Then dad really is a..."
Whis: "Yes, Super Saiyan God. I don't know whether he's the same as Beerus-sama or the Kaioshins, but at the very least he's become as much of a god as they are."
Vegeta's comment on kaioshin later when fat buu is formed seems to confirm that no one ever sensed kaoshin
I wasn't talking about Super, I was talking about the original Dragon Ball manga, and the scene specifically where Supreme Kai and Piccolo go face to face at the WMAT then Piccolo comments that his strength and Kaioshin's strength were dimensions apart and throws the fight.
See above, and if we aren't talking about super, god ki wasn't even introduced as a concept in manga. Vegeta's comment about kaioshin later when buu is formed , pretty much confirms that they never sensed kaioshin.
In super , we see:
Piccolo cant sense god ki
SS3 goku cant sense god ki
Kaioshins have god ki
So, it is confirmed that piccolo didn't sense kaioshin. Shin even says "He must've realized who I'm, he was a god some time ago" implying that it was kami's knowledge that helped piccolo grasp the things.
namekiansaiyan wrote:With Buu's power level I doubt we will ever get an answer due to him never fighting and I do not see him fighting in the future as I think Toriyama does not like using him as for 2 arcs in a row he has made excuses for him not to fight.
I agree, he will never fight except in TB where he wins and then loses against satan.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Chiki wrote:Nice try, but Goku thinks that Buu is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo defeated a weakened FF Frost.
Says who ? And don't tell me it comes from the anime because i follow the manga for the powerscaling for the Champa Arc [Unless the chapter is yet to be released] ,since it's more consistent and closer to Toriyama's script.
Anime doesn't say U6 arc piccolo is below buu.
Bullza wrote:The latest manga chapter was scanlated and Vegeta was indeed unable to lift 1,000 tons as a Super Saiyan.
Which is pretty contradictory with the anime when they can lift these things in base form no problem.
Neither scene happened in the anime. So this is kinda like another 40 ton thing isn't it? Or even Goku wearing a 250 pound shirt in DB when he could push a boulder that would weigh dozens or even hundreds of tons.
The numbers just don't match the feats at all. If they can't lift 1,000 tons as a Super Saiyan then they shouldn't be able to lift 20 tons in Base but Vegeta was supposed to weigh 18 tons in 300x gravity back in the Android saga and he trained in it for 3 years and they've become much more powerful since.
There is no relation of multiplier between base lifting and SS lifting.
When someone is resisting, then it no longer a lifting feat. Piccolo was unable to push a 100 kg tagoma, so it doesn't mean piccolo can't lift 100kg.
Similarly, magatta was also applying force.
pacz360 wrote:Why do you guys care about lifting feats that never been db forte not only that was in the manga not in the anime which the anime is primary canon so it don't mean anything.
lifting cometition against superman , you dont know?
During RoF, It was implied that Buu would´ve wiped the floor with Frieza and his men. This can be derived from when Gohan talked about how they would´ve been done for had Mr. Buu not been on their side. Obviously this is before they realized that Mr. Buu had actually been sleeping.
Another point of reference we can use to tell that Mr. Buu would´ve shredded Frieza and his men is when Frieza states that his father told him to never fight to warriors, one being Beerus and the other being Buu.
I would also like to point out that in the RoF movie, Goku didnt need to use SSJ to beat FF Frieza, however, Goku needed to go SSJ to beat Frost in the Champa Arc. So from this I would conclude that :
SSJ Goku > FF Frost > Mr. Buu/Base RoF Goku > FF Frieza
Vegeta : Pfft, you're gonna grow up to be just like Gohan
Cabba : NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
(Turns Super Saiyin for the first time)
Cabba : TAKE THAT BACK!
Volk wrote:During RoF, It was implied that Buu would´ve wiped the floor with Frieza and his men. This can be derived from when Gohan talked about how they would´ve been done for had Mr. Buu not been on their side. Obviously this is before they realized that Mr. Buu had actually been sleeping.
Another point of reference we can use to tell that Mr. Buu would´ve shredded Frieza and his men is when Frieza states that his father told him to never fight to warriors, one being Beerus and the other being Buu.
I would also like to point out that in the RoF movie, Goku didnt need to use SSJ to beat FF Frieza, however, Goku needed to go SSJ to beat Frost in the Champa Arc. So from this I would conclude that :
SSJ Goku > FF Frost > Mr. Buu/Base RoF Goku > FF Frieza
when freeza said that that was before he started to train for 4 months also buu being stronger than base goku is wrong due to base goku being much stronger than he was when punching beerus energy ball which his ssj3 from couldn't do anything to beerus less than 10%
Bullza wrote:Base Goku (RoF/U6) > Frieza Final Form > SSJ3 Goku (DBZ) > Buu
There's no way Buu is stronger than Frieza. He may be stronger than his First Form but that's about it.
So you think Frost is stronger than Base Goku and all of those guys? That can't be since Toriyama hyped Buu up too much and had him elaborately removed.
Well Frost was stronger than Base Goku, at least in his final form.
And Buu wasn't hyped up at all. He was the first choice, turned out he couldn't compete, "Aw shit we're already down to 4 members that sucks!". Then they moved on with it.
Bullza wrote:Well Frost was stronger than Base Goku, at least in his final form.
And Buu wasn't hyped up at all. He was the first choice, turned out he couldn't compete, "Aw shit we're already down to 4 members that sucks!". Then they moved on with it.
Toriyama elaborately hyped up Buu and then had him removed from the tournament:
"There's no way we can go without Buu!" = not hyped up at all?
Buu obviously would have done too well in the tournament and he had to be removed. Toriyama didn't hype up Buu and have him removed from the tournament for no reason. I'm not going to debate this point further because it should be obvious to anyone who can read a fictional story at all. It's just obvious.
Bullza wrote:Base Goku (RoF/U6) > Frieza Final Form > SSJ3 Goku (DBZ) > Buu
There's no way Buu is stronger than Frieza. He may be stronger than his First Form but that's about it.
So you think Frost is stronger than Base Goku and all of those guys? That can't be since Toriyama hyped Buu up too much and had him elaborately removed.
there is no way buu can be stronger than frost.
Goku said that ALL the universe 6 members were incredibly strong as much as he expected. Buu can be stronger than botamo and that's it.
Also, on your "hype up buu" part, remember than goku can solo beings over 100x more powerful than buu. SS3 goku could already fodderize buu and SSB goku is so much above him that it's not even funny.
So, yeah buu is hyped up for nothing.
A being thousand times stronger than buu saying that he should take buu doesn't mean he's hyping him vastly
Bullza wrote:Base Goku (RoF/U6) > Frieza Final Form > SSJ3 Goku (DBZ) > Buu
There's no way Buu is stronger than Frieza. He may be stronger than his First Form but that's about it.
So you think Frost is stronger than Base Goku and all of those guys? That can't be since Toriyama hyped Buu up too much and had him elaborately removed.
there is no way buu can be stronger than frost. Goku said that ALL the universe 6 members were incredibly strong as much as he expected. Buu can be stronger than botamo and that's it.
Also, on your "hype up buu" part, remember than goku can solo beings over 100x more powerful than buu. SS3 goku could already fodderize buu and SSB goku is so much above him that it's not even funny.
So, yeah buu is hyped up for nothing.
A being thousand times stronger than buu saying that he should take buu doesn't mean he's hyping him vastly
'
Goku thinks Buu-level is really strong, so there's no reason to think that he would think people who are SSJ level like Frost, who are above SSJ like Magetta etc. wouldn't be impressive to him too.
"There's no way we can go without Buu!" = not hyped up at all?
Nothing hyped up about that at all, he's just stating the obvious. He's the third strongest of the lot now that Gohan has been weakened considerably. Of course they couldn't go without him.
How do you go from that line to him being able to beat the others who are stronger than Base Goku who us stronger than a SSJ3?
Buu could be stronger than Botamo and Frost in his First Form and that's about it.
Hi! I'm new here, I've been thinking about what could the correct order in terms of power of the main characters in DBSuper. Actually, in my opinion the order is:
1) Vados
2) Whis
3) Bills
4) Champa
5) Goku SSBlue + kaiokenx10
6) Hit
7) Goku SSBlue (multiverse tournament)
8 Vegeta SSBlue (multiverse tournament)
9) Golden Frieza
10) Goku SSGod
11) Frieza final form
12) Mr. Buu
13) Magetta
14) Cabba Super Saiyan
15) Frieza first form
16) Frost final form
17) Gohan Super Saiyan
18) Tagoma
19) Piccolo
20) Botamo
Take a look at my complete DB power level list in my signature!
"There's no way we can go without Buu!" = not hyped up at all?
Nothing hyped up about that at all, he's just stating the obvious. He's the third strongest of the lot now that Gohan has been weakened considerably. Of course they couldn't go without him.
How do you go from that line to him being able to beat the others who are stronger than Base Goku who us stronger than a SSJ3?
Buu could be stronger than Botamo and Frost in his First Form and that's about it.
Have you read other shonen? When a character in a shonen says something like that, it's a message from the author with the intention to hype a character up. Given that Buu was removed from the tournament without participating, Toriyama's intention is to tell us that Buu would have done extremely well.
Why did Toriyama remove Buu then, according to you? If you have a good reason I might just be convinced that I'm wrong.
Seriously, how could Goku possibly be weaker than Beerus WITH the Kaioken technique.? Even a x2 or x3 would have a huge lead over Beerus, not to mention he'd probably be a lot faster than him.
So, did Beerus just forget how powerful he is, and he was actually hiding a LOT of power when he fought Goku?? lol
Watch his 70% full power become 5-10% later...
Still can't ignore Beerus' initial reaction after Goku used KKx10. I could totally read his mind in that scene. If he didn't crap himself there, I'd be shocked.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
