Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Low Tone G]

My Tiers:

Tier 0:
Vados: 15
Whis: 15

Tier 1:
Beerus: 10
Champa: 10(he has only stamina issues putting him below Beerus - they are twins after all)
SSB Goku KK10x: 9,5(even if Goku went 10x I must believe that only Goku's base power was multiplied tenfold and was added to his SSJB power)
Hit: 9(with Tokitobashi)

Tier 2:
SSB Goku/SSb Vegeta: 8
Golden Freeza: 7,5
SSJ Goku/SSJ Vegeta: 6,5(I believe Goku has kept his SSJ-G powers only in his SSJ form after his fight with Beerus his base remaining 50x weaker)
SSJ Kabe
Magetta full power: 5

Tier 3:
Frost 4th form
Frost Assuault form/4th form worn out/Piccolo with Makankosappo
Base Goku/Vegeta/Kabe
4th form Freeza
SSj Vegetto
Buu-Gohan
Frost First form

Tier 4:
1st form Freeza
Ultimate/Mystic Gohan
SSj Gohan/Piccolo
Botamo
Mr. Buu/Ginew(using Tagoma's body)

[Volk]

My Tiers:

Tier 0:
Vados: 15
Whis: 15

Tier 1:
Beerus: 10
Champa: 10(he has only stamina issues putting him below Beerus - they are twins after all)
SSB Goku KK10x: 9,5(even if Goku went 10x I must believe that only Goku's base power was multiplied tenfold and was added to his SSJB power)
Hit: 9(with Tokitobashi)

Tier 2:
SSB Goku/SSb Vegeta: 8
Golden Freeza: 7,5
SSJ Goku/SSJ Vegeta: 6,5(I believe Goku has kept his SSJ-G powers only in his SSJ form after his fight with Beerus his base remaining 50x weaker)
SSJ Kabe
Magetta full power: 5

Tier 3:
Frost 4th form
Frost Assuault form/4th form worn out/Piccolo with Makankosappo
Base Goku/Vegeta/Kabe
4th form Freeza
SSj Vegetto
Buu-Gohan
Frost First form

Tier 4:
1st form Freeza
Ultimate/Mystic Gohan
SSj Gohan/Piccolo
Botamo
Mr. Buu/Ginew(using Tagoma's body)

It was said in the anime that Hit was still holding back by quite a big margin. I wouldnt put him below Goku, and I would also put the scale to be a little broader.

Whis / Vaods : 20
Beerus / Champa : 15
Hit : 10
SSB x 10KK Goku : 9.5

I just dont see Goku and Hit being on the level of the Gods yet. Beerus laughed when Goku attempted to fight Champa, and Beerus is presumed to be stronger Champa. The margin between Whis. Vados, Beerus, Champa in comparison to the other fighters has to be a lot greater than the .5 that you have them out now. Just imagine, if Hit was holding back, according to your scale he would be above Beerus if he went all out.

And before the 6,10,15 power scale thing is brought up to contradict me.. we cant completely accept this as Law anymore as it was said in an interview long ago before SSB was brought to be, before the KK was brought back, before the U6 tournament... I just dont see it in effect anymore.

[Low Tone G]

My Tiers:

Tier 0:
Vados: 15
Whis: 15

Tier 1:
Beerus: 10
Champa: 10(he has only stamina issues putting him below Beerus - they are twins after all)
SSB Goku KK10x: 9,5(even if Goku went 10x I must believe that only Goku's base power was multiplied tenfold and was added to his SSJB power)
Hit: 9(with Tokitobashi)

Tier 2:
SSB Goku/SSb Vegeta: 8
Golden Freeza: 7,5
SSJ Goku/SSJ Vegeta: 6,5(I believe Goku has kept his SSJ-G powers only in his SSJ form after his fight with Beerus his base remaining 50x weaker)
SSJ Kabe
Magetta full power: 5

Tier 3:
Frost 4th form
Frost Assuault form/4th form worn out/Piccolo with Makankosappo
Base Goku/Vegeta/Kabe
4th form Freeza
SSj Vegetto
Buu-Gohan
Frost First form

Tier 4:
1st form Freeza
Ultimate/Mystic Gohan
SSj Gohan/Piccolo
Botamo
Mr. Buu/Ginew(using Tagoma's body)

It was said in the anime that Hit was still holding back by quite a big margin. I wouldnt put him below Goku, and I would also put the scale to be a little broader.

Whis / Vaods : 20
Beerus / Champa : 15
Hit : 10
SSB x 10KK Goku : 9.5

I just dont see Goku and Hit being on the level of the Gods yet. Beerus laughed when Goku attempted to fight Champa, and Beerus is presumed to be stronger Champa. The margin between Whis. Vados, Beerus, Champa in comparison to the other fighters has to be a lot greater than the .5 that you have them out now. Just imagine, if Hit was holding back, according to your scale he would be above Beerus if he went all out.

And before the 6,10,15 power scale thing is brought up to contradict me.. we cant completely accept this as Law anymore as it was said in an interview long ago before SSB was brought to be, before the KK was brought back, before the U6 tournament... I just dont see it in effect anymore.

Of course Hit was holding back, but even then, Goku was confident that after changing the rules he has still the chance to beat him. But ultimately he was worn out by Kaio-ken so he lost his edge. And a .5 gap is still enough for Beerus to stomp Goku. Goku didn't surpass him even with Kaio-ken and he made the diagnose that he should not use the technique again. Being said, Beerus was concerned by Kaio-ken, admitting that the technique is very useful, but still claimed he is above Goku. Champa wasn't concerned by Hit's Time-skip technique as being above Goku he would have been enough quick to counter it.

It simply wouldn't makse sense that Goku is only 5% of Beerus' full power even with KK10x.

[Volk]

My Tiers:

Tier 0:
Vados: 15
Whis: 15

Tier 1:
Beerus: 10
Champa: 10(he has only stamina issues putting him below Beerus - they are twins after all)
SSB Goku KK10x: 9,5(even if Goku went 10x I must believe that only Goku's base power was multiplied tenfold and was added to his SSJB power)
Hit: 9(with Tokitobashi)

Tier 2:
SSB Goku/SSb Vegeta: 8
Golden Freeza: 7,5
SSJ Goku/SSJ Vegeta: 6,5(I believe Goku has kept his SSJ-G powers only in his SSJ form after his fight with Beerus his base remaining 50x weaker)
SSJ Kabe
Magetta full power: 5

Tier 3:
Frost 4th form
Frost Assuault form/4th form worn out/Piccolo with Makankosappo
Base Goku/Vegeta/Kabe
4th form Freeza
SSj Vegetto
Buu-Gohan
Frost First form

Tier 4:
1st form Freeza
Ultimate/Mystic Gohan
SSj Gohan/Piccolo
Botamo
Mr. Buu/Ginew(using Tagoma's body)

It was said in the anime that Hit was still holding back by quite a big margin. I wouldnt put him below Goku, and I would also put the scale to be a little broader.

Whis / Vaods : 20
Beerus / Champa : 15
Hit : 10
SSB x 10KK Goku : 9.5

I just dont see Goku and Hit being on the level of the Gods yet. Beerus laughed when Goku attempted to fight Champa, and Beerus is presumed to be stronger Champa. The margin between Whis. Vados, Beerus, Champa in comparison to the other fighters has to be a lot greater than the .5 that you have them out now. Just imagine, if Hit was holding back, according to your scale he would be above Beerus if he went all out.

And before the 6,10,15 power scale thing is brought up to contradict me.. we cant completely accept this as Law anymore as it was said in an interview long ago before SSB was brought to be, before the KK was brought back, before the U6 tournament... I just dont see it in effect anymore.

Of course Hit was holding back, but even then, Goku was confident that after changing the rules he has still the chance to beat him. But ultimately he was worn out by Kaio-ken so he lost his edge. And a .5 gap is still enough for Beerus to stomp Goku. Goku didn't surpass him even with Kaio-ken and he made the diagnose that he should not use the technique again. Being said, Beerus was concerned by Kaio-ken, admitting that the technique is very useful, but still claimed he is above Goku. Champa wasn't concerned by Hit's Time-skip technique as being above Goku he would have been enough quick to counter it.

It simply wouldn't makse sense that Goku is only 5% of Beerus' full power even with KK10x.

1) Its enough for Beerus to stomp Goku, but, it seems like Goku is really close to Beerus' power. Something that Tori said he had no intention of doing so for some time now.

2) 5%? 9.5 is about 60%-70% of a 15. I could definitely see this as Gokus power compared to Beerus.

[Low Tone G]

1) Its enough for Beerus to stomp Goku, but, it seems like Goku is really close to Beerus' power. Something that Tori said he had no intention of doing so for some time now.

2) 5%? 9.5 is about 60%-70% of a 15. I could definitely see this as Gokus power compared to Beerus.

It's not about the numbers, but yeah, Goku should be enough close to Beerus' power even if Toriyama mentioned that he won't surpass him any time soon. And Goku will put the Kaio-ken aside, so he will continue training without it.

It doesn't make sense that Goku after so many trainings, even with Whis, wouldn't be close to Beerus' power, when Beerus himself admits that the Kaio-ken is indeed a useful move of Goku even against him.

Beerus was impressed by Goku's perfomance in BOG Arc just like in the movie. I'm not saying that Beerus used his 70% like in the movie, but only a 5-10% wouldn't really entertain him.

RoF also pointed out that Goku and Vegeta have attained a power close to Gods, so.... I don't know...

[Volk]

1) Its enough for Beerus to stomp Goku, but, it seems like Goku is really close to Beerus' power. Something that Tori said he had no intention of doing so for some time now.

2) 5%? 9.5 is about 60%-70% of a 15. I could definitely see this as Gokus power compared to Beerus.

It's not about the numbers, but yeah, Goku should be enough close to Beerus' power even if Toriyama mentioned that he won't surpass him any time soon. And Goku will put the Kaio-ken aside, so he will continue training without it.

It doesn't make sense that Goku after so many trainings, even with Whis, wouldn't be close to Beerus' power, when Beerus himself admits that the Kaio-ken is indeed a useful move of Goku even against him.

Beerus was impressed by Goku's perfomance in BOG Arc just like in the movie. I'm not saying that Beerus used his 70% like in the movie, but only a 5-10% wouldn't really entertain him.

RoF also pointed out that Goku and Vegeta have attained a power close to Gods, so.... I don't know...

Take Kuririn and have him get trained by Whis. There has to be a point were after a certain amount of training, he will no longer grow. Itś called limits. I understand that Vegeta and Goku have HUGE limits, however, it was mentioned that they were close to reaching a peak. This would explain why they are still below Beerus even after 3 years of sparing with each other in the HTC, Months of training with Whis, and the fight with Golden Frieza. They are simply too close to their limit. To better represent this, take a look at an exponential curve. As it reaches its asymptote (limit) the graph (power levels) just level out. They continue to get better, however, it is not by much.

[Low Tone G]

1) Its enough for Beerus to stomp Goku, but, it seems like Goku is really close to Beerus' power. Something that Tori said he had no intention of doing so for some time now.

2) 5%? 9.5 is about 60%-70% of a 15. I could definitely see this as Gokus power compared to Beerus.

It's not about the numbers, but yeah, Goku should be enough close to Beerus' power even if Toriyama mentioned that he won't surpass him any time soon. And Goku will put the Kaio-ken aside, so he will continue training without it.

It doesn't make sense that Goku after so many trainings, even with Whis, wouldn't be close to Beerus' power, when Beerus himself admits that the Kaio-ken is indeed a useful move of Goku even against him.

Beerus was impressed by Goku's perfomance in BOG Arc just like in the movie. I'm not saying that Beerus used his 70% like in the movie, but only a 5-10% wouldn't really entertain him.

RoF also pointed out that Goku and Vegeta have attained a power close to Gods, so.... I don't know...

Take Kuririn and have him get trained by Whis. There has to be a point were after a certain amount of training, he will no longer grow. Itś called limits. I understand that Vegeta and Goku have HUGE limits, however, it was mentioned that they were close to reaching a peak. This would explain why they are still below Beerus even after 3 years of sparing with each other in the HTC, Months of training with Whis, and the fight with Golden Frieza. They are simply too close to their limit. To better represent this, take a look at an exponential curve. As it reaches its asymptote (limit) the graph (power levels) just level out. They continue to get better, however, it is not by much.

I completely agree, still I'm convinced that Goku could be very close to Beerus with Kaio-ken...

[ssbgoku]

My Tiers:

Tier 0:
Vados: 15
Whis: 15

Tier 1:
Beerus: 10
Champa: 10(he has only stamina issues putting him below Beerus - they are twins after all)
SSB Goku KK10x: 9,5(even if Goku went 10x I must believe that only Goku's base power was multiplied tenfold and was added to his SSJB power)
Hit: 9(with Tokitobashi)

Tier 2:
SSB Goku/SSb Vegeta: 8
Golden Freeza: 7,5
SSJ Goku/SSJ Vegeta: 6,5(I believe Goku has kept his SSJ-G powers only in his SSJ form after his fight with Beerus his base remaining 50x weaker)
SSJ Kabe
Magetta full power: 5

Tier 3:
Frost 4th form
Frost Assuault form/4th form worn out/Piccolo with Makankosappo
Base Goku/Vegeta/Kabe
4th form Freeza
SSj Vegetto
Buu-Gohan
Frost First form

Tier 4:
1st form Freeza
Ultimate/Mystic Gohan
SSj Gohan/Piccolo
Botamo
Mr. Buu/Ginew(using Tagoma's body)

Very nice and here is mine:

Dbs pl:

tier 1:
Whis/vados -15

tier 2:
Beerus - 10
Champa -9.8
(if possible)kaioken x20 ssb goku - (8.2 + 0.04(base)*20) - 9
kaioken x10 ssb goku - (8 + 0.04(base)*10) - 8.4
kaioken x4 ssb goku - (8 + 0.04(base)*4) - 8.16
kaiokenx3 ssb goku - (8 + 0.04(base)*3)- 8.12
kaiokenx2 ssb goku - (8 + 0.04(base)*2) - 8.08
Ssb goku/vegeta - 8

tier 3
fp Hit - 7.8 (durable and his time leap technique gives him edge over ssb goku/vegeta unless countered)
Golden frieza - 7.5
rof ssb goku/vegeta - 7

tier 4
Saiyan beyond god(bog-rof) - 6.5
Ssg goku - 6

tier 5
Ssj goku/vegeta - 2

tier 6
10% beerus - 1
Bog arc ssj vegito - 0.7
Enraged ssj2 vegeta - 0.2
Fp Magenta - 0.1

tier 7
SSj cabba - 0.09
Final form frost - 0.08
Final form frieeza - 0.05
Heavily supressed hit - 0.04
Base goku/vegeta - 0.04
Bog ssj3 goku /base cabba- 0.03
Enraged Mr buu - 0.025
Third form frost - 0.02
Heavily supressed frost - 0.01

tier 8
Mr buu- 0.008
Picoolo - 0.006
Botamo/ first form frost - 0.005
First form frieeza - 0.003

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But Goku definitley powered up in his base form after having become a God. They're drastically more powerful than they were at the start of the show in base.

In the movies & anime? Definitely. In the manga though? There is no indication, at least not yet.

Anime takes precedence over the manga though.

I wasn't talking about what's canon & what isn't. I was talking about the Super manga continuity.

[apex_pretador]

a power level list for DBS

Tier 0 - Super top tier

God satan = 195
Sorbet's ring = 112

Tier 1 - Top tier

Whis / Vados = 60
Beerus / champa (Power of god of destruction) = 40

Tier 2 - Very high tier

Beerus = 30
Champa = 25
KK x10 goku = 24

Tier 3 - High Tier

Hit - 18 (fully improved)
Goku = 14
Vegeta = 14
Golden freeza = 14

Tier 4 - Strong tier

SS Vegeta = 10 (full power)
SS goku = 10 (FP) , 5 (vs frost)
SS Cabba = 4

Tier 5 - Middle tier

Frost = 2 (FF)
Magetta = 1.9
FF Freeza = Base goku = Base vegeta = 1
Assault frost = 1
Buu = anywhere the author desires

Tier 6 - Not bad tier

Buu = anywhere the author desires
Piccolo = 0.6
First form frost = 0.5
First form freeza = 0.4
SS Gohan (RoF arc) = 0.3

Tier 7 - Could be better tier

Ginyu = 0.1
Tagoma = 0.09
Piccolo = 0.06

Tier 8 - Low tier

Gohan = 0.03
Shisami = 0.01

Tier 9 - Very low tier

Krillin = 0.001
Tien = 0.001
Roshi = 0.0001

Tier 10 - Chiaotzu tier

Chiaotzu = 0
Yajirobe = 0
Someone who hasn't even appeared = 0

Tier 11 - Yamcha Tier

RoF gohan after dropping into base from super saiyan = -11
basically this:

[vegeku]

From my point of view there's no way that anyone in the 6th Universe can be stronger than the Super Vegito we saw in Buu Arc except Hit, Champa or Vados.
And the same for the 7th Universe except Goku SSGod/SSBlue, Vegeta SSBlue, Golden Frieza, Bills or Whis.
Also we can consider Goku Super Saiyan just after losing its SSGod transformation versus Bills in the same league of Gods.

I don't think that Goku and Vegeta in the Multiverse Tournament are using any of their god ki while being base or Super Saiyan. And the reason why is because Piccolo was able to fight with Frost with only little disadvantage and Piccolo couldn't fight or be close to beat someone that supposedly is more powerful than Super Vegito or close to the Super Saiyan Goku that fought Bills.

Frost at his final form should be in the same tier of Perfect Cell. Then makes sense that Goku and Vegeta Super Saiyan are able to beat Frost with wide advantage, as they would win Perfect Cell after 7 years of training plus 3 years more in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in their Super Saiyan state. That theory puts also by default Cabba and Magetta not so far beyond Perfect Cell or Dabura. And Mr. Boo still stronger than any 6th Universe fighter except obviously Hit.

I would say:

Tier beyond Gods -> Vados, Whis, ¿Zeno?

Tier of Gods -> Bills, Champa, Hit, Goku/Vegeta SSBlue, Golden Frieza, Goku SSGod

Tier 3 -> SSJ Vegito, Super Buu Gohan, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks, Super Buu, Goku/Vegeta base god ki, Frieza final form, Mr. Buu

Tier 4 -> SSJ Goku/Vegeta, Magetta, SSJ Cabba, Dabura, Perfect Cell, Frieza first form, Frost final form, SSJ Gohan (RoF), Tagoma, Piccolo

Tier 5 -> Frost assault form, Goku/Vegeta, Cabba, Frost first form, Botamo....................................................................................

That is how I think tiers are, but obviously I could be wrong, there are so much speculations that can be done

[apex_pretador]

From my point of view there's no way that anyone in the 6th Universe can be stronger than the Super Vegito we saw in Buu Arc except Hit, Champa or Vados.
And the same for the 7th Universe except Goku SSGod/SSBlue, Vegeta SSBlue, Golden Frieza, Bills or Whis.

And will you please tell why you think so?

[vegeku]

From my point of view there's no way that anyone in the 6th Universe can be stronger than the Super Vegito we saw in Buu Arc except Hit, Champa or Vados.
And the same for the 7th Universe except Goku SSGod/SSBlue, Vegeta SSBlue, Golden Frieza, Bills or Whis.

And will you please tell why you think so?

Because of Piccolo vs Frost

Piccolo was able to have a good battle against Frost final form and was close to beat him. We know that Magetta and Cabba are stronger than Frost because of their battle with Vegeta but there are no so many levels between them and the emperor of the 6th Universe. We also know that Piccolo is a lot weaker than Mr. Buu, and Vegito very far beyond the level of Buu. So Vegito can beat easily Magetta, Cabba, Frost and Botamo

[apex_pretador]

From my point of view there's no way that anyone in the 6th Universe can be stronger than the Super Vegito we saw in Buu Arc except Hit, Champa or Vados.
And the same for the 7th Universe except Goku SSGod/SSBlue, Vegeta SSBlue, Golden Frieza, Bills or Whis.

And will you please tell why you think so?

Because of Piccolo vs Frost

Piccolo was able to have a good battle against Frost final form and was close to beat him. We know that Magetta and Cabba are stronger than Frost because of their battle with Vegeta but there are no so many levels between them and the emperor of the 6th Universe. We also know that Piccolo is a lot weaker than Mr. Buu, and Vegito very far beyond the level of Buu. So Vegito can beat easily Magetta, Cabba, Frost and Botamo

1. Frost was weakened and tired.
2. Tournament rules.
3. Frost was not trying to kill piccolo. See goku's statement that powerwise , piccolo doesn't stand a chance.
4. Buu was stronger than piccolo before his 8 months+ training. We dont know how they compare after current time. Do we?
5. Frost has to be above FF Freeza. Tagoma was nothing to SS gohan, who was nothing to 1st form F, and tagoma could one-shot piccolo.
Since there is nothing contradicting that piccolo got a powerup (but not big enough to be comparable powerwise to frost) , I can perfectly see him above buu. Especially when it is hinted that gohan has surpassed his buu arc level.

[Chiki]

1. Frost was weakened and tired.

Goku didn't beat him up that badly at all.

Characters in Super have a lot of durability. SS Vegeta unarguably beat up Base Cabba much much harder than SS Goku beat up Frost, but Cabba was still able to go SS afterwards. Frost had most of his power remaining, period.

[apex_pretador]

1. Frost was weakened and tired.

Goku didn't beat him up that badly at all.

Characters in Super have a lot of durability. SS Vegeta unarguably beat up Base Cabba much much harder than SS Goku beat up Frost, but Cabba was still able to go SS afterwards. Frost had most of his power remaining, period.

first super saiyan transformation arguably replenishes your ki

[LowRyder2005]

Especially when it is hinted that gohan has surpassed his buu arc level.

Well, like I said a couple of times in the last months, what is stated is the very contrary: Gohan says he is still getting the basics done with Piccolo's help in the anime (literally "I'm having Piccolo-san retrain me from scratch right now"), so the theory he may have suddenly become stronger than ever isn't very convincing. I mean, the fact that Piccolo is still retraining him from scratch makes it sound like he's still in the refresher course phase.

Piccolo being above Buu, strictly speaking, is not impossible, just very hard to believe. At least given how the narrative treated one and how it treated the other.

[apex_pretador]

Especially when it is hinted that gohan has surpassed his buu arc level.

Well, like I said a couple of times in the last months, what is stated is the very contrary: Gohan says he is still getting the basics done with Piccolo's help in the anime (literally "I'm having Piccolo-san retrain me from scratch right now"), so the theory he may have suddenly become stronger than ever isn't very convincing. I mean, the fact that Piccolo is still retraining him from scratch makes it sound like he's still in the refresher course phase.

Piccolo being above Buu, strictly speaking, is not impossible, just very hard to believe. At least given how the narrative treated one and how it treated the other.

That could be about skills and fighting ability, unless gohan somehow regressed below 1307. Gohan also said he was "excited" to show his result of training to goku, who has already seen mystic gohan

[LowRyder2005]

Especially when it is hinted that gohan has surpassed his buu arc level.

Well, like I said a couple of times in the last months, what is stated is the very contrary: Gohan says he is still getting the basics done with Piccolo's help in the anime (literally "I'm having Piccolo-san retrain me from scratch right now"), so the theory he may have suddenly become stronger than ever isn't very convincing. I mean, the fact that Piccolo is still retraining him from scratch makes it sound like he's still in the refresher course phase.

Piccolo being above Buu, strictly speaking, is not impossible, just very hard to believe. At least given how the narrative treated one and how it treated the other.

That could be about skills and fighting ability, unless gohan somehow regressed below 1307. Gohan also said he was "excited" to show his result of training to goku, who has already seen mystic gohan

If he is less skillfull and has less fighting ability, you yourself are pretty much suggesting he's weaker.

Moreover, we know for a fact that Goku himself was aware of Gohan's regression as a fighter, so even if Gohan wanted to test the results of his training and put them in practice it doesn't prove pretty much anything but Gohan assessing he was stronger than his ROF self.

[Chiki]

1. Frost was weakened and tired.

Goku didn't beat him up that badly at all.

Characters in Super have a lot of durability. SS Vegeta unarguably beat up Base Cabba much much harder than SS Goku beat up Frost, but Cabba was still able to go SS afterwards. Frost had most of his power remaining, period.

first super saiyan transformation arguably replenishes your ki

Doesn't matter, I can give you examples of way worse beatings in the series like Raditz beating the crap out of Piccolo and Piccolo still being able to OHKO him and Goku with Makankosappo.

Honestly anyone who doesn't think Buu >>> Piccolo doesn't know how to read and understand a fictional story. Toriyama has made that crystal clear, but hopefully it'll be even more explicitly pointed out in the future.