The anime and the "strongest" Boo thing...

[MisterGuyMan]

This isn't conclusive at all. Goku says they can do something now not that they couldn't do something before. This is your interpretation not something that is conclusive. I always read that how they can kill Buu now as opposed to before they couldn't without killing the kids. You can't tell me my interpretation in wrong like I cant say yours is wrong.

What's important is the clear and obvious contradictions which I pointed out before that offer no wiggle room for alternative interpretation.

They had already removed Gohan, Piccolo, and the boys beforehand, yet Goku was still adamant that they couldn't take him on, saying that he was still too strong for them and that they were only "almost there" in terms of weakening him.

Him saying that they could now means that they couldn't before, and we already have Goku's statement on how he and Vegeta would fare against the regular Evil Buu after they got Gohan and the others to safety.

There's not really any other logical way that can be taken other than that Pure Buu was the weaker, and your "clear and obvious contradictions" that "offer no wiggle room" have alternate interpretations, as have been pointed out a number of times before.

When Goku says 'Now we can do some thing" proves that now he can do something. The point is to reconcile all the statements together not inserting additional nuances that aren't outright stated. Its about what you can prove not what you personally think.

And yes I agree with you. Before they couldn't do something. That time was when the kids and Piccolo were absorbed. If you wish to insist that only your timeframe is the only applicable time timeframe then some sort of proof would be in order. The statement "Now we can do something" doesn't prove your point. That's just your own personal interpretation.

[Desassina]

I'm going to be cautious, because Toriyama/Toei seem to be playing it safe, as far as the material adds up to Super. If the series' organizer had something to say on DB Kai, by having helped on the Daizenshuu as well, then it's quite possible that Kid Buu is the strongest. We can't rely on the manga forever, or else we would be missing out on DB Super, so even if the anime had some inconsistencies, they were forever dealt with through its cut and remastering. If the line that puts Kid Buu above Buuhan or Buutenks is still there, then it's the problem we'll have to deal with, like any other until now.

[pacz360]

It's obvious that super buu stronger than kid buu in the manga goku flat out admit he stood no chance against him even without the absorptions.

[apex_pretador]

It's obvious that super buu stronger than kid buu in the manga goku flat out admit he stood no chance against him even without the absorptions.

see the last post on previous page.

[Hitiro]

When Goku says 'Now we can do some thing" proves that now he can do something. The point is to reconcile all the statements together not inserting additional nuances that aren't outright stated. Its about what you can prove not what you personally think.

And yes I agree with you. Before they couldn't do something. That time was when the kids and Piccolo were absorbed. If you wish to insist that only your timeframe is the only applicable time timeframe then some sort of proof would be in order. The statement "Now we can do something" doesn't prove your point. That's just your own personal interpretation.

The issue is the time you're claiming Goku, or Vegeta, couldn't do anything is incorrect. As Darkprince says they had removed everyone from Boo except Fat Boo before Goku's statement that they still couldn't beat him. That would place the time at when Evil Boo had returned to his original self. Unless you can prove otherwise that Goku had removed the kids and Piccolo and was still referring to not being able to do something while they were absorbed. Which would make absolutely no sense really. The fact that Goku states, after Boo becomes Pure Boo, that they might be able to manage something indicates that whatever they did prior to this had weakened Boo to the point that they would be able to manage something. This isn't really debatable because this is the actual statement. What we have is:

Evil Boo

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Pure Boo

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

As you can plainly see Goku sees no chance of them winning against Evil Boo but in comparison when they turn Boo into his Pure self he feels they might be able to manage something. We go from Goku wanting to use fusion because it is necessary to feeling they can handle him without it. The only problem is that the anime puts in lines like Goku saying Pure Boo is the strongest which mucks up the story a bit. Unless you want to boil down Goku's statement as Goku saying this Boo is the strongest because it is his own power rather than borrowed power that the other Boo's have been using.

[pacz360]

It's obvious that super buu stronger than kid buu in the manga goku flat out admit he stood no chance against him even without the absorptions.

see the last post on previous page.

So.. What about it doesn't change what i said.

[Cipher]

See it like this:
- Goku SS3 = 100
- Fat buu = 50 (nothing to SS3 goku, who can destroy him fully in one blast)
- Super buu = 115 (SS3 goku can't finish him off, and given how he can't sustain this form for a fight, he is scared).
- Buff buu = 150 = gohan
- Kid buu = 95 (initial) , 110 (Mad)

Here's how goku can surpass gohan in a quick time.

I don't have any problem with that. I just thought you were arguing that Kid/Pure Boo was stronger than Super Boo or something.

[Desassina]

There are many ways for it to work, if the decision ever came down to numbers:

[Power] - it gets added or taken.

Buuhan - 1'400
Buutenks - 1'200
Kid Buu - 1'000 - SSJ3 Goku
Buff Buu - 800 - Ultimate Gohan
Super Buu - 600 - SSJ3 Gotenks
Evil/Fat Buu - 400
Good Buu - 200

[Suppression] - it locks power to a percentage.

South Kaioshin - 80%
Dai Kaioshin - 50%

Which doesn't means that Buff Buu can't get stronger and bulky, and Fat Buu more docile. Power is not linear with one's strength, build, or nature. I'm not even using the classic 50, 100 and 400 multipliers, but a base 10 to the power of the transformations' number:

SSJ1 - 10^1
SSJ2 - 10^2
SSJ3 - 10^3

But that's just how arbitrary everything is, and we shouldn't allow the numbers to tell the story for us.

[apex_pretador]

See it like this:
- Goku SS3 = 100
- Fat buu = 50 (nothing to SS3 goku, who can destroy him fully in one blast)
- Super buu = 115 (SS3 goku can't finish him off, and given how he can't sustain this form for a fight, he is scared).
- Buff buu = 150 = gohan
- Kid buu = 95 (initial) , 110 (Mad)

Here's how goku can surpass gohan in a quick time.

I don't have any problem with that. I just thought you were arguing that Kid/Pure Boo was stronger than Super Boo or something.

I'm not arguing kid buu HAS TO BE stronger than super buu, but that it is not impossible, and both are stronger than goku (buu arc).
However, by BoG, goku surpasses both of them, because the gaps aren't as big as power levels thread makes it out to be.

[MisterGuyMan]

The issue is the time you're claiming Goku, or Vegeta, couldn't do anything is incorrect. As Darkprince says they had removed everyone from Boo except Fat Boo before Goku's statement that they still couldn't beat him. That would place the time at when Evil Boo had returned to his original self. Unless you can prove otherwise that Goku had removed the kids and Piccolo and was still referring to not being able to do something while they were absorbed. Which would make absolutely no sense really. The fact that Goku states, after Boo becomes Pure Boo, that they might be able to manage something indicates that whatever they did prior to this had weakened Boo to the point that they would be able to manage something. This isn't really debatable because this is the actual statement. What we have is:

Evil Boo

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

They can do something now because they don't have to kill the kids. A few moments later the same is also true. You're making cutoff lines that don't exist. Before the kids were free. Now the kids are free. A statement about how they can do something now when the kids were free still applies a few moments later when the kids are still free. The statement is applicable to both time frames, not just one.

Also we can't ignore the conditional that's there:

Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Goku has a vague conditional "If we go outside like this". That's called an antecedent. Conditionals do not apply if the antecedent doesn't apply. If he goes out in a state that isn't like how he is inside Buu, then this statement doesn't apply. I contend that he must have also been referring to his size but that's beside the point.

By contrast there is no getting around Vegeta's statement or Daizenshuu's statement. You focus on the one statement that might imply you're right. You're ignoring the two later statements that say in no uncertain terms that you're wrong. Goku saying If we go outside like this leaves some margin for interpretation. Vegeta saying "there's no doubt..." leaves no margin for interpretation The conclusive statement determines the meaning of the inconclusive statement.

That's my entire point here. I'm reconciling these statements and there's only one such possible way. One statement has wiggle room. The other statement has none.

Pure Boo

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

As you can plainly see Goku sees no chance of them winning against Evil Boo but in comparison when they turn Boo into his Pure self he feels they might be able to manage something. We go from Goku wanting to use fusion because it is necessary to feeling they can handle him without it. The only problem is that the anime puts in lines like Goku saying Pure Boo is the strongest which mucks up the story a bit. Unless you want to boil down Goku's statement as Goku saying this Boo is the strongest because it is his own power rather than borrowed power that the other Boo's have been using.

The statement is entirely about his size. It's the same joke they do in DB all the time across multiple arcs. This isn't really a contradiction of anything one way or another.

[Hitiro]

They can do something now because they don't have to kill the kids. A few moments later the same is also true. You're making cutoff lines that don't exist. Before the kids were free. Now the kids are free. A statement about how they can do something now when the kids were free still applies a few moments later when the kids are still free. The statement is applicable to both time frames, not just one.

No, it's not. Goku specifically says they can't beat him even after they removed the kids and Piccolo. That is just a fact.

Also we can't ignore the conditional that's there:

Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Goku has a vague conditional "If we go outside like this". That's called an antecedent. Conditionals do not apply if the antecedent doesn't apply. If he goes out in a state that isn't like how he is inside Buu, then this statement doesn't apply. I contend that he must have also been referring to his size but that's beside the point.

You can't know that. Goku never makes the assertion it is about his size. In fact in the next sentence he references fusion. If it were about size then it would not matter if they fused because it would result in the same issue if you're saying he was referring to size here. But the fact that he thinks they need fusion clearly points to him not even thinking size would be an issue. Furthermore it would also not matter if they managed to weaken Boo further because the size issue would still be a problem if you think he is referring to size here. And going even further he tries to blast his way out of Boo and is puzzled why it doesn't Work. Boo states that it is because he is the size of a flea so until this point he did not think his size had any bearing on his fighting ability.

By contrast there is no getting around Vegeta's statement or Daizenshuu's statement. You focus on the one statement that might imply you're right. You're ignoring the two later statements that say in no uncertain terms that you're wrong. Goku saying If we go outside like this leaves some margin for interpretation. Vegeta saying "there's no doubt..." leaves no margin for interpretation The conclusive statement determines the meaning of the inconclusive statement.

Goku is pertaining to the possibility of them going outside. That is why the "if" is there. There was no certainty to them going outside or staying in at this point because they may have opted to find a way to weaken Boo further or find some other way inside Boo to defeat him. Them leaving Boo at this point was a possibility and Goku voiced his opinion that this possibility in leaving Boo would lead to their deaths unless they were to further weaken Boo. That is all.

That's my entire point here. I'm reconciling these statements and there's only one such possible way. One statement has wiggle room. The other statement has none.

There is no wiggle room here. You're just heavily misinterpreting what he meant when he said this. "If they leave" is merely maintaining to the option of them leaving Boo. Just like if I say "If I smoke this cigarette it's going to be bad for my health." In the same way "If they leave Boo like this(While he is still more powerful than them hence why Goku suggested they try to make him weaker)" then they will definitely be done in. Basically "If we go outside like this!(Without having done any more to Boo)" they are done for.

Pure Boo

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

As you can plainly see Goku sees no chance of them winning against Evil Boo but in comparison when they turn Boo into his Pure self he feels they might be able to manage something. We go from Goku wanting to use fusion because it is necessary to feeling they can handle him without it. The only problem is that the anime puts in lines like Goku saying Pure Boo is the strongest which mucks up the story a bit. Unless you want to boil down Goku's statement as Goku saying this Boo is the strongest because it is his own power rather than borrowed power that the other Boo's have been using.

The statement is entirely about his size. It's the same joke they do in DB all the time across multiple arcs. This isn't really a contradiction of anything one way or another.

No, it's not. Only Vegeta's comment was about size and it would be absurd to think Goku would think they could manage something because of Boo's size especially when up until this comment they were sensing Boo's Ki changes. Why would Goku all of a sudden stop sensing an enemy that could be becoming even stronger than what he had already deemed was too powerful for them to handle if they were to leave Boo as he was? And if you're saying the statement is entirely about his size then I would have to bring up that Goku said "We did it!" are you telling me that it was Goku's plan to shrink Boo? Because as far as I'm aware their plan was to actually make Boo weaker so they could manage something. Hence the "We did it!" As in they managed to achieve the goal they set out to do. And because of this they might now be able to manage something.

[MisterGuyMan]

They had already removed Gohan, Piccolo, and the boys beforehand, yet Goku was still adamant that they couldn't take him on, saying that he was still too strong for them and that they were only "almost there" in terms of weakening him.

Him saying that they could now means that they couldn't before, and we already have Goku's statement on how he and Vegeta would fare against the regular Evil Buu after they got Gohan and the others to safety.

There's not really any other logical way that can be taken other than that Pure Buu was the weaker, and your "clear and obvious contradictions" that "offer no wiggle room" have alternate interpretations, as have been pointed out a number of times before.

As for the alternate interpretations, I answered them. You basically claimed that Gohan didn't count as a Saiyan since Vegeta when Goku is the strongest Saiyan. If you responded to that point then I missed it. Also, Daizenshuu pointing out that Buu was the strongest in the universe when he was defeated has no plausible alternate interpretation either. It's as clear it can get actually.

No, it's not. Goku specifically says they can't beat him even after they removed the kids and Piccolo. That is just a fact.

And that statement only applies if Goku is like he was inside Super Buu. I keep pointing out how that conditional opens up enough room for interpretation. Vegeta, when he identifies Goku as the strongest in the universe and the strongest Saiyan uses the phrase "without doubt."

You can't know that. Goku never makes the assertion it is about his size. In fact in the next sentence he references fusion. If it were about size then it would not matter if they fused because it would result in the same issue if you're saying he was referring to size here. But the fact that he thinks they need fusion clearly points to him not even thinking size would be an issue. Furthermore it would also not matter if they managed to weaken Boo further because the size issue would still be a problem if you think he is referring to size here. And going even further he tries to blast his way out of Boo and is puzzled why it doesn't Work. Boo states that it is because he is the size of a flea so until this point he did not think his size had any bearing on his fighting ability.

You can't know that either. That's the point. There's room for interpretation. Also I have no problem imagining SS3 Vegeto destroying Super Buu even if he were the size of a flea. Contrast how this statement has a conditional with Vegeta's statement. Vegeta's statement uses the phrase "no doubt" and IDs Goku as the strongest Saiyan. There's no wiggle room there.

Goku is pertaining to the possibility of them going outside. That is why the "if" is there. There was no certainty to them going outside or staying in at this point because they may have opted to find a way to weaken Boo further or find some other way inside Boo to defeat him. Them leaving Boo at this point was a possibility and Goku voiced his opinion that this possibility in leaving Boo would lead to their deaths unless they were to further weaken Boo. That is all.

I'm honestly not interested in arguing interpretations. I'm just pointing out what's there. Goku's statement has the conditonal "If we go out like this..." and that's all I'm really interested in. That's vague. Vegeta says Goku's the strongest in the universe without doubt. He says Goku's the strongest Saiyan. Any way you cut it, the Buu statement is more vague than the two Vegeta statements. So if you have a problem with the Buu statement, and that's fine, then you have to have even less of a problem with Vegeta's statements since they're much stronger.

Also note that Vegeta's statements are also the newest information we have on this and it's literally decades newer. We can't pretend it doesn't exist by focusing solely on the Buu statement at the expense of everything else.

There is no wiggle room here. You're just heavily misinterpreting what he meant when he said this. "If they leave" is merely maintaining to the option of them leaving Boo. Just like if I say "If I smoke this cigarette it's going to be bad for my health." In the same way "If they leave Boo like this(While he is still more powerful than them hence why Goku suggested they try to make him weaker)" then they will definitely be done in. Basically "If we go outside like this!(Without having done any more to Boo)" they are done for.

"If they leave LIKE THIS..." is what Goku says. That phrase exists in the text. You say I'm misinterpreting it. I say I'm not. Moreover if we disagree I can cite the two statements made by Vegeta which labels Goku as the strongest in the universe and the strongest Saiyan to supplement my point.

No, it's not. Only Vegeta's comment was about size and it would be absurd to think Goku would think they could manage something because of Boo's size especially when up until this comment they were sensing Boo's Ki changes. Why would Goku all of a sudden stop sensing an enemy that could be becoming even stronger than what he had already deemed was too powerful for them to handle if they were to leave Boo as he was? And if you're saying the statement is entirely about his size then I would have to bring up that Goku said "We did it!" are you telling me that it was Goku's plan to shrink Boo? Because as far as I'm aware their plan was to actually make Boo weaker so they could manage something. Hence the "We did it!" As in they managed to achieve the goal they set out to do. And because of this they might now be able to manage something.

I'm not really telling you anything. My interpretations are mine and I don't use it as evidence unless I have to. I'm just pointing out what's there. Goku makes a statement inside Super Buu with a vague conditional. Vegeta makes two statements about Goku being the strongest with no conditional at all.

I can tell you what I think Goku meant but in the end you'll just disagree with me so what's the point? That's why I'm focusing only on what's there and ignoring personal interpretation on both our ends.

[Desassina]

This is getting out of hand. Seriously, Goku is referring to fusion inside of his stomach, because that's the context all along. Goku was also expecting Majin Buu to drop in power, because that was the plan, and he somehow confirmed it through his reaction. If we can look at Vegeta's statement in Super very casually, why can't the others be taken lightly as well? I'm asking this, because Vegeta's statement isn't without its own context (strength), while its grammar points to it being less than certain. Let's look at it very carefully, for you have exaggerated the conditions as well:

Vegeta: (thinking to himself) "After Majin Buu's defeat, there should be no doubts that Goku is Number One"

To think that there should be is less certain than must be and is. It's Vegeta's uncertainty showing through. However, I don't usually cling to this argument, because we're supposed to look at these expressions very casually, and so I have developed a new stance. Goku is stronger, because the extent of his full power, which he showcased against Kid Buu, without the latter actually facing it, was above Ultimate Gohan's. Since Gohan had not increased his against Buutenks, we can say that he has reached a ceiling, while Goku still had much to display. It just so happens that he hadn't used it before while he was alive.

You can say that SSJ3 Goku is the strongest and that Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. End of story. If anyone else feeds this discussion any longer, they're just looking to backtrack and perpetuate it, and there's no need to, because the points have already been addressed by an infinite amount. Cheers!

[dragonballer]

so...is there anyone interested in discuss about post-fusion goku > pre-funsion goku? because this topic was supposed to be about that...

[Desassina]

They fused at base, turned SSJ as Vegetto and then split into their base forms. Hmm... Could SSJ power have been distributed between them? xD

[Ash57]

In the anime, the statement of Kid Buu being stronger than all Buus doesn't have to include Gotenks Buu and Gohan Buu, because they aren't new Buus, they are just Super Buu with someone absorbed (in the anime Gotenks Buu never says that he became the strongest form of Buu)

In the manga, however, it is explicitly stated that Gotenks Buu is a new form of Buu when he states "now the strongest majin buu is born", so he is a new Buu and the statement would be impossible.

[dragonballer]

They fused at base, turned SSJ as Vegetto and then split into their base forms. Hmm... Could SSJ power have been distributed between them? xD

and they also gained a side effect that prevented they go beyond ssj1,since they didn't transfome when:
-gohan and gotenks was going to kill them.
-super buu was going to kill them.
-kid buu was going to kill them.

[Desassina]

In the anime, the statement of Kid Buu being stronger than all Buus doesn't have to include Gotenks Buu and Gohan Buu, because they aren't new Buus, they are just Super Buu with someone absorbed (in the anime Gotenks Buu never says that he became the strongest form of Buu)

Well, at least it's a new development, and on topic. I'm not sure about this, and I would have to watch the Japanese episodes, but Super Buu is different than Kid Buu. He told us that he wouldn't be himself if Fat Buu was taken, so is it another form that wasn't considered? Perhaps, and the DB Super manga is according to the Daizenshuu: "Majin Buu was the strongest enemy... Goku defeated Majin Buu, the strongest in the universe"; so it's related to the threat that was, and still is, if Fat Buu ever loses control.

and they also gained a side effect that prevented they go beyond ssj1,since they didn't transfome when:
-gohan and gotenks was going to kill them.
-super buu was going to kill them.
-kid buu was going to kill them.

It actually works in the anime, because Goku is keeping SSJ3 as a last resort, even if not a secret anymore. Then he underestimates Kid Buu, who reveals to be higher than a SSJ2 tier, and pushes Goku to use SSJ3. He's the number one, indeed.

[dragonballer]

and they also gained a side effect that prevented they go beyond ssj1,since they didn't transfome when:
-gohan and gotenks was going to kill them.
-super buu was going to kill them.
-kid buu was going to kill them.

It actually works in the anime, because Goku is keeping SSJ3 as a last resort, even if not a secret anymore. Then he underestimates Kid Buu, who reveals to be higher than a SSJ2 tier, and pushes Goku to use SSJ3. He's the number one, indeed.

out of universe i konw it is all toei logic...

but in-universe there wasn't any reason for goku to not use ssj3 even if he was keeping it as last resort,because those moments i quote was supposed to be his "last" moments .

then,there is ssj2,there was no reason to save it unless they couldn't use it.

[Akira]

First off, I'm a hypocrite on this, I said I was out, but I'm back. There, saved anyone from throwing that at me. Simplest answer is the best answer:

A fused enemy required fusion to fight against, a non-fused enemy could be fought without using fusion.

Simple.as.that...period.

Rather than respond to every line of dialog and "proposed evidence" to the contrary, and saving myself an hour or two of my life writing a wall of text that will go skimmed at best, or more likely, ignored, I'll say the above, and leave it at that. I have been trying to understand, instead, what is bringing on this "debate" (if it could even be called that). I painstakingly read every word and argument in every post that came before this one, trying to make sense of it. I've drawn a conclusion, and I need you guys to confirm my theory.

You all, meaning anyone who regularly participates in these Buu threads, have been doing so for years. The same thread, in one form or another, crops up every week, or every two weeks at best, almost as long as I have been coming to this forum. (That's over ten years for those keeping count) When I was first into DB, way the heck back when, and we got to the Buu saga, there were debates, but it was almost always about who was stronger, Goku or Gohan at the very end. That is what this is about too, is it not?

Someone, somewhere along the line, felt the need to get their personal power ranking validated, it spawned a series of arguments, and that eventually mutated into this farce that is these Buu arguments. That is the conclusion I have come to. Am I right?

If that is the case, then please, for the love of Popo, can we agree the facts are straight on the above statement I made regarding Buu, and actually discuss what it is that you all are really getting at? I'd be glad to discuss the Goku/Gohan thing, it hasn't ever been entirely clear for anyone. It making sense, in Goku's favor, or in Gohan's favor, does absolutely not hinge on one form or the other of Buu being stronger. That is clearly shown, in an actions speak louder than words kind of way, what the absolute fact is on that matter.

I propose, an agreement on that fact, drop this Buu argument nonsense, and let's actually discuss what your real objective is anyway. Trust me, I can play devil's advocate either way, and without involving Majin Buu or random dialog. Admission of the facts regarding Buu is not admitting defeat on whomever your "pony" is in the saiyan power race.

Is this even possible, or am I doomed to see this thread re-surface, and keep getting bumped back to the top of the in-universe discussion page forever?