Is EVERYTHING Dragon Ball ‘Z' to you?

[sintzu]

Look, if you don't care about third of Toriyama's manga, it's your loss, man, i don't give a fuck.

I love DB like you and others here.

I'm currently re-watching it now, I just finished the Baba arc and I agree that it should be watched in order to see the world and characters build.

Back to my question, how many games does DB have compared to Z ?

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

This is just made up from nothing.

If the Z label was never invented, no one would feel that the Saiyan arc and after were out of place and no one would think it logical to split the series after the fact.

If people grew up on "One Piece: New World" without seeing the first half of the series, they would make up the same arguments for why it makes sense and that "New World" is more serious and action packed series and that no one cares about the prequel "One Piece"

Tell that to Toie and Toriyama who decided to split it up.

The people who thought it was logical were the studio behind the anime itself and the franchise's own creator so are you saying that you know better then them ?

Good luck with that.

I'm with Kuririn Fan, If you want to disregard a third of the story, go ahead. Just don't try so hard to make up justifications for it.

[Kuririn Fan]

Look, if you don't care about third of Toriyama's manga, it's your loss, man, i don't give a fuck.

I love DB like you and others here.

I'm currently re-watching it now, I just finished the Baba arc and I agree that it should be watched in order to see the world and characters build.

Back to my question, how many games does DB have compared to Z ?

I honestly don't know and don't care, but i do know that there are games with og DB.
Sorry, i'm a PC gamer, i don't care about those inferior console games.

[sintzu]

American fans think Z is only what matters they are casual fans in my eyes.

DB is also a classic and it has aged just fine and not just in Japan.

That doesn't make them lesser fans than anyone else here.

Then why is it ignored by everyone ? companies don't produce anything based on it and fans rarely talk about it.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Sorry, i'm a PC gamer, i don't care about those inferior console games.

I was on your side, but now the battle lines are drawn...

[sintzu]

If you want to disregard a third of the story, go ahead. Just don't try so hard to make up justifications for it.

I'm not disregarding anything, I just said why it's not a classic on Z's level and I gave very good reasons to why I think that and as of now, both of you haven't proven me wrong.

TOEI decided to split it up.

And Toriyama agreed to it which means he also thought that splitting it up into 2 parts was a good idea.

I was on your side, but now the battle lines are drawn...

Yes!!!! let's put our differences aside and take down this common enemy.

In the name of Sony.

Sorry, i'm a PC gamer, i don't care about those inferior console games.

Like Arkham Knight, Red Dead Redemption and the last of us ?

[Saikyo no Senshi]

American fans think Z is only what matters they are casual fans in my eyes.

DB is also a classic and it has aged just fine and not just in Japan.

That doesn't make them lesser fans than anyone else here.

Then why is it ignored by everyone ? companies don't produce anything based on it and fans rarely talk about it.

Casual fans in my eyes
Who ignores it? I know a lot of fans here as well as outside talk about it frequently.

[sintzu]

Who ignores it? I know a lot of fans here as well as outside talk about it frequently.

The Companies because they don't release anything for it while Z and to a lesser extent Gt are always getting new products.

The fans rarely talk about it while Z and sometimes Gt are getting new topics and being discussed year after year.

Just look at this site, how many DB topics are there compared to Z and Gt ? and how much is it talked about compared to them ?

[Kuririn Fan]

TOEI decided to split it up.

And Toriyama agreed to it which means he also thought that splitting it up into 2 parts was a good idea.

Nakatsuru: Did you imagine anything else besides “Z”?

Toriyama: No, I don’t think so. Personally I thought that the title was fine the way it was, but the people on the anime staff said they wanted an image change, so I figured “well, this should be OK”.
And OG DB is classic everywhere in the world.
Its not classic to you because you didnt grew up with it and dont have nostalgia for it.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing, i understand.

[sintzu]

Toriyama: The people on the anime staff said they wanted an image change, so I figured “well, this should be OK”.

Its not classic to you because you didnt grew up with it and dont have nostalgia for it.

If he wanted everyone to watch them as one, wouldn't he have said no to the split ? or at least make it publicly known that he was against it and prefers fans to watch them as one ?

Him agreeing to it means that he also thought that the last 2 thirds of the story could stand on their own and they do.

I saw Z then Gt and finally DB one after the other without much time in between so it has nothing to do with me not growing up on it because I did.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Toriyama: The people on the anime staff said they wanted an image change, so I figured “well, this should be OK”.

Its not classic to you because you didnt grew up with it and dont have nostalgia for it.

If he wanted everyone to watch them as one, wouldn't he have said no to the split ? or at least make it publicly known that he was against it and prefers fans to watch them as one ?

Him agreeing to it means that he also thought that the last 2 thirds of the story could stand on their own and they do.

I saw Z then Gt and finally DB one after the other without much time in between so it has nothing to do with me not growing up on it because I did.

They can't stand on their own at all. And Toriyama has less control over the anime than you think

[Captain Space]

If he wanted everyone to watch them as one, wouldn't he have said no to the split ? or at least make it publicly known that he was against it and prefers fans to watch them as one ?

Him agreeing to it means that he also thought that the last 2 thirds of the story could stand on their own and they do.

It really doesn't mean that. It would only mean that if he knew at that point that it would form two-thirds of the story. He thought it was gonna be the final arc at that point; if it had been the final arc and then ended, then nobody would've watched the short-lived finale Z without DB. He probably had in mind something akin to what ended up happening with Saint Seiya's Hades arc OVAs, which as the final capstone to the story (barring Next Dimension I guess but I'm getting too deep into another fandom now) would be a bit silly to watch on their own.

I freaking honestly would just prefer if people would stop mixing the entire franchise like it was just a complete story or series, because its not. Dragon ball was originally a light hearted kids comic and it follows a different coloration for originally being a gag, adventure manga, thats why you cant use certain Goku feats like him breaking the fourth wall or flying to a moon on his powerpole while being able to breathe in space because its gag.

Dragon ball Z is where you start to see more substance in the show and its transformation into shounen series in order to compete against saint seiya and sailor moon. Thats why you actually had a plot in the story and cool looking characters and villains showing up like Vegeta, Frieza, Future Trunks, Androids etc

Pretty sure Dragon Ball was a kids' comic right through to Buu, that's what shonen *is*...and what, the tournament arcs, Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, they didn't have a plot or cool looking characters now?! News to me.

As for the fabled 'tone shift', that happens right about when Krillin dies to kick off the King Piccolo arc, if it can even be pinned to a specific moment at all. The saiyan arc is no more serious than the King Piccolo arc, and the Buu arc less so.

[Jaetinh]

I freaking honestly would just prefer if people would stop mixing the entire franchise like it was just a complete story or series, because its not.

Come on man, seriously? Dragon Ball is just one complete story. When Toriyama made his manga, I'm pretty fucking sure he didn't think of the first part of the story (23rd TB) as one series and the Saiyajin saga as a sequel. I get that a lot of US fans grew up with Z and not the original beginning, but this is just.

[Gaffer Tape]

If he wanted everyone to watch them as one, wouldn't he have said no to the split ? or at least make it publicly known that he was against it and prefers fans to watch them as one ?

Him agreeing to it means that he also thought that the last 2 thirds of the story could stand on their own and they do.

Or it could mean he had no power to stop them. Or he just didn't care what their version was doing. It could mean any number of things. You're just assuming. The only evidence we have is that Toriyama explicitly says he didn't think a name change was necessary, and that he chose NOT to change the name of his own creation.

Because going by that logic, that means that Toriyama MUST like and agree with a big chunk of the movie villains, right? Because Toei asked him to design them, and he didn't refuse to do it, right?

[sintzu]

Because going by that logic, that means that Toriyama MUST like and agree with a big chunk of the movie villains, right? Because Toei asked him to design them, and he didn't refuse to do it, right?

That's exactly what it means.

Why wouldn't he like his OWN designs ?

[Gaffer Tape]

Liking the design does not necessarily follow that he cares for the character or the film. That's making an assumption. (Hell, considering Toriyama has gone on record saying there's only one drawing he's ever made he's been satisfied with, you saying he likes those designs is probably an assumption. MOST creative people aren't satisfied with or downright dislike their own work, actually.) Likewise, Toriyama probably thought "Dragon Ball Z" was a good name he came up with.

He still didn't feel compelled to ever use it, though...

Another example: I get told to do things at my job all the time. Sometimes I'm satisfied with the results. Sometimes I don't care for what I've come up with, but they like it, so that's all that matters. Sometimes I don't care for the assignment at all, but I still do it because I have to. Just because Toriyama did something doesn't mean he necessarily agrees with it or wanted to do it, especially when he explains having done it by actually saying he didn't feel it was necessary to do!

[emi_b7]

I don't really understand this "they are 2 different things" mentality. Does the 23rd TB arc feel THAT much different in tone than the Saiyans arc to you? I mean, early DB is different but the progression from arc to arc is really smooth IMO and I can't think about it as 2 different things.
Also, if I had seen DBZ before DB I would have a lot of questions (Why are Goku and Piccolo rivals? Why does Goku randomly visit a freaking cat after training in the ROSAT? Where do all these guys who come fight the Saiyans come from? What is this RRA thing? Why should I care about all these characters (Oolong, Puar, etc) who are just THERE? Where the hell does this Uranai Baba lady come from and how can she bring dead people? I could go on and on and on). The impact of the first DBZ episodes (Goku having a kid, being an alien and then dying) would be a bit lost too because we just met the guy, why should we care that much about him and be surprised he is an alien?
Anyway, it's fine to prefer DBZ portion of the story and that is obviously the most popular part (though the difference in popularity between the 2 is a lot bigger in the US than almost everywhere else) but some of you are talking like it's just an unnecesary side story with a tottaly different tone and that it makes no difference if you watch or not.

[ABED]

Liking the design does not necessarily follow that he cares for the character or the film. That's making an assumption. (Hell, considering Toriyama has gone on record saying there's only one drawing he's ever made he's been satisfied with, you saying he likes those designs is probably an assumption. MOST creative people aren't satisfied with or downright dislike their own work, actually.) Likewise, Toriyama probably thought "Dragon Ball Z" was a good name he came up with.

He still didn't feel compelled to ever use it, though...

Another example: I get told to do things at my job all the time. Sometimes I'm satisfied with the results. Sometimes I don't care for what I've come up with, but they like it, so that's all that matters. Sometimes I don't care for the assignment at all, but I still do it because I have to. Just because Toriyama did something doesn't mean he necessarily agrees with it or wanted to do it, especially when he explains having done it by actually saying he didn't feel it was necessary to do!

I don't know about most, but it's certainly not uncommon when creative people aren't satisfied with their own work.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, it annoys me, too. It just goes to show the franchise is split up badly.

[ABED]

I don't mind where it's split, but I wish more people understood that it is an artificial separation.