Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

Just wondering: is there a reason why Base Goku and Vegeta need to be comparable to Mr. Boo? These guys have not only trained with Whis, but also in the rosat. We know Goku had gotten much stronger absorbing the God Power while Vegeta reached a whole different level training with Whis alone. Being comparable to Mr. Boo makes it seem like they haven't gained much of anything.

Because until now EoZ is still canon.

That doesn't mean the events of Super need to be retroactively applied to the ending.

Why do you think so, if I may ask? After all, Super (episode 2 onwards) happens around five years after Kid Buu's defeat, and on paper it should be self-contained enough so that Goku and Vegeta stop seeing each other for around five years too (ROSAT or other time shenanigans aside). End of Z is ten years from Kid Buu's defeat.

So, in short:

Age 774: Kid Buu is defeated
Age 774/775: The first episode of Super
Age 779/780: The events of "Battle of Gods", "Revival of F" and the "Universe 6" Arc all take place
Around 780 or the beginning of 781: The entire events of Super probably end, Goku and Vegeta won't see each other until 784
784: End of Z, Goku meets Uub

In any way (and I agree with the idea that Goku vs. Uub doesn't really set the debate), to complement your post, Base Goku vs. Mr. Buu it depends on how you think the "godly power" affected Goku and Vegeta. If you believe they can't turn Super Saiyan when using their godly ki, everyone in the U6 becomes drastically weaker.

Now, Piccolo is the crux of the matter here, and it may help clarify things: fact is you just can't put him at Super Saiyan God tier without breaking the entire narrative of the Buu Saga. And the anime suggests pretty much every time Gohan has a scene that he's a shadow of his former self, now trying for the first time to reach his former power. All the while, Buu is believed to be "crazy strong" (and it's said by a Goku who tasted the power of Gods clashed with Beerus), Piccolo is - much to the dismay of his fans - treated like an afterthought both before and after they see him train with Gohan.
In short it sounds like Piccolo didn't improve much, that Buu is still supposed to be relevant (or rather a "relevant loss" if unable to compete) even after they see and possibly gauge the Universe 6 fighters, Goku can turn Super Saiyan when we know that if "he mixes Super Saiyan with God ki" he becomes Super Saiyan Blue...

But yeah, it's not like Goku being above Mr. Buu in Base is a real impossibility. I think that if they power up in base they can eclipse Good Buu. Mr. Buu, however, still needs to be "crazy strong" by Goku's standards according to the narrative.

See, that's the part I don't understand. God Chi is special in that it can't be sensed, but according to Whis, it's predicated on keeping your Chi from leaking around you. Vegeta trained with Whis for six months and became powerful enough to sense all of the Gods, as well as equal or slightly surpass Goku. We know for a fact Vegeta reached that level without any ritual, so all of that power he accumulated training with Whis is his own. Goku appeared to gain the ability to gauge Gods after absorbing the power, but I don't believe something like that would just disappear. Their ability to change into Super Saiyan Blue whenever they want tells us their Godly Chi is intact.

It just seems really strange that power like this would just vanish without being alluded to in any way. Think about it: Vegeta tells Goku they're close to reaching their limits before going into the rosat. Wouldn't this imply that they're stronger than they've ever been in general? For Vegeta to say that, he'd have to believe they were powerful to the point where it seemed like they didn't have much more room to improve. After Base Goku and Vegeta train in the room for awhile, Vegeta says he can feel the growth in power and actually looks forward to fighting the U6 warriors even more.

It just doesn't make sense for them to not be expanding on the power they have. We're never given any reason to believe they're regressing.

I'm half with you on this one. Although we are mostly inferring that you can sense God ki if you are powerful enough (Hit, Freeza), but it's not like it's stated to be the only way, right? Perhaps there may be some technique we are unaware of, and that's what Vegeta obtained through his traning with Whis alongside a considerable increase in power.

To sum it up, being super strong => can sense God ki may not necessarily work the other way round.

I like to think that Goku and Vegeta basically mastered their ki control with Whis. So they can jump to near their SS power (2 = base -> 50 = amped base -> 100 = Super Saiyan) without transforming at all.

[ssbgoku]

See, that's the part I don't understand. God Chi is special in that it can't be sensed, but according to Whis, it's predicated on keeping your Chi from leaking around you. Vegeta trained with Whis for six months and became powerful enough to sense all of the Gods, as well as equal or slightly surpass Goku. We know for a fact Vegeta reached that level without any ritual, so all of that power he accumulated training with Whis is his own. Goku appeared to gain the ability to gauge Gods after absorbing the power, but I don't believe something like that would just disappear. Their ability to change into Super Saiyan Blue whenever they want tells us their Godly Chi is intact.

It just seems really strange that power like this would just vanish without being alluded to in any way. Think about it: Vegeta tells Goku they're close to reaching their limits before going into the rosat. Wouldn't this imply that they're stronger than they've ever been in general? For Vegeta to say that, he'd have to believe they were powerful to the point where it seemed like they didn't have much more room to improve. After Base Goku and Vegeta train in the room for awhile, Vegeta says he can feel the growth in power and actually looks forward to fighting the U6 warriors even more.

It just doesn't make sense for them to not be expanding on the power they have. We're never given any reason to believe they're regressing.

I can see your concern and issue with divine ki amplified base state disappearing like that but you look at it from wrong side.
I mean sure it may looks like it disappeared however instead it just was replaced by ssb it was just changed into it. Too best It makes much more sense as even it fit with dbz theme about gohan's potential being bigger then them. If it is still true then neither goku or vegeta suprassed ultimate gohan in base. The same gohan which was pushed and suprassed his own limits as stated by Elder Kai who did ritual to him.

It also ties with goku calling buu crazy strong, if he is still deal for them in base or at least threat to them while enraged Mr buu would be even above them while still much inferior to ssj goku/vegeta.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I can see your concern and issue with divine ki amplified base state disappearing like that but you look at it from wrong side.
I mean sure it may looks like it disappeared however instead it just was replaced by ssb it was just changed into it. Too best It makes much more sense as even it fit with dbz theme about gohan's potential being bigger then them.

Vegeta said Gohan has always had the highest potential of them all, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be limited to a certain level, though. Gohan always surpassed them in dormant ability, but the Godly realm of power far exceeded that. That doesn't take away Gohan's superior potential, but they've found a way to make non-relevant to their own gains. Now if Gohan began to train with Whis..........

If it is still true then neither goku or vegeta suprassed ultimate gohan in base. The same gohan which was pushed and suprassed his own limits as stated by Elder Kai who did ritual to him.

Not necessarily. Potential changes. Majin Vegeta was Vegeta with his power take beyond his limits, yet we know DB Super Vegeta is stronger than he was during the Boo saga. Gohan was the strongest by the end of the Boo saga and at his utmost limits, but the God power and Whis' training opened up a whole new realm of power for them. That was what, in my opinion, allowed them to surpass Gohan in Base.

It also ties with goku calling buu crazy strong, if he is still deal for them in base or at least threat to them while enraged Mr buu would be even above them while still much inferior to ssj goku/vegeta.

I think Goku was just making a general comment on Boo and why he'd be good for the team. Boo can be impressive despite being much weaker than himself. We've seen this noted many times throughout the series.

Why do you think so, if I may ask? After all, Super (episode 2 onwards) happens around five years after Kid Buu's defeat, and on paper it should be self-contained enough so that Goku and Vegeta stop seeing each other for around five years too (ROSAT or other time shenanigans aside). End of Z is ten years from Kid Buu's defeat.

Whoa, it does? I always thought Super began sometime after the six months when they erased everyone's minds.

In any way (and I agree with the idea that Goku vs. Uub doesn't really set the debate), to complement your post, Base Goku vs. Mr. Buu it depends on how you think the "godly power" affected Goku and Vegeta. If you believe they can't turn Super Saiyan when using their godly ki, everyone in the U6 becomes drastically weaker.

I think they can. With Super Saiyan 2 and 3 seemingly being discarded, I think they only have access to Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue now. Goku admitted he couldn't win against Freeza without Super Saiyan Blue, while Super Saiyan is seemingly ignored altogether. That's a bit confusing. For a temporary explanation, I'd say they just weren't accustomed to using Super Saiyan along with their new powers until they trained in the rosat.

Now, Piccolo is the crux of the matter here, and it may help clarify things: fact is you just can't put him at Super Saiyan God tier without breaking the entire narrative of the Buu Saga. And the anime suggests pretty much every time Gohan has a scene that he's a shadow of his former self, now trying for the first time to reach his former power. All the while, Buu is believed to be "crazy strong" (and it's said by a Goku who tasted the power of Gods clashed with Beerus), Piccolo is - much to the dismay of his fans - treated like an afterthought both before and after they see him train with Gohan.

Yeah, Piccolo is the most difficult one to understand. When going by RoF, he's implied to be weaker than Base Gohan (which is odd if we go by Beers' quote on Goku and Freeza), who hasn't been training and actually lost his Ultimate form. I really don't know how to gauge Piccolo. It just seems impossible. As for Mr. Boo, I guess that depends on Goku's standards on what "crazy strong" means. It's a bit hard to tell because there's no baseline.

But yeah, it's not like Goku being above Mr. Buu in Base is a real impossibility. I think that if they power up in base they can eclipse Good Buu. Mr. Buu, however, still needs to be "crazy strong" by Goku's standards according to the narrative.

I guess I just look at their reaction to Freeza and find it hard to believe he'd only be comparable to Mr. Boo. I know it could be said that the surprise stems from the fact that this is Freeza, but I don't get the impression that these guys are fighting at a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 level. I think somewhere well above Super Saiyan 3 but in the middle of Super Saiyan God would be more accurate. Gohan found their Chi alone to be pretty incredible while they were clashing.

I'm half with you on this one. Although we are mostly inferring that you can sense God ki if you are powerful enough (Hit, Freeza), but it's not like it's stated to be the only way, right? Perhaps there may be some technique we are unaware of, and that's what Vegeta obtained through his traning with Whis alongside a considerable increase in power.

That's certainly a possibility. I just assume power was the factor for Goku and Vegeta based on Whis' quote:

Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."

From what we know, you can sense the Chi of a God by either being a God yourself or reaching a high enough level where you can do it. Based on what SSJ3 Vegeta posted, Cabba appears to sense Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

I like to think that Goku and Vegeta basically mastered their ki control with Whis. So they can jump to near their SS power (2 = base -> 50 = amped base -> 100 = Super Saiyan) without transforming at all.

That's similar to how I see it. I think their power in Base far exceeded Super Saiyan 3, with their Super Saiyan going even further than that. There was basically no need for Super Saiyan 2 or 3 anymore.

[LowRyder2005]

Whoa, it does? I always thought Super began sometime after the six months when they erased everyone's minds.

It gave a lot of people some headaches but, in theory, yes... although (truthfully) as far as timeskips go it would be a very subtle one and not without some headscratchers (here for more info: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... after_buu/).

Basically, trying to make everything fit you'd have Pan who is born in 779, and Bra in 780.
Kid Buu dies in 774 and between the first and second episode the narrator mentions that "some time has passed" since the Dragon Balls have been used to erase the memory of Buu. The Dragon Balls, reportedly, have been used six months after Buu's defeat.

Again, it's simpler with a general outline written like this:

774: Kid Buu is killed by the Genki Dama.
774 or 775: The memories of Buu are erased from the people of the Earth.

"Some time has passed..."

778 or 779: Battle of Gods happens, because Videl is far in her pregnancy.
779: Pan is born, ROF takes place too.
Beginning of 780: Champa arc... but Bulma doesn't appear to be pregnant, so either she isn't and will get pregnant in the first quarter of the year, she is pregnant but isn't aware of it yet, or the reader hasn't been informed. Judging from her physique, she couldn't be far in her pregnancy anyway.

The funny thing is that unless Vegeta gets it on with Bulma right after the tournament (or, like I said, Bulma is pregnant but the she and/or the reader aren't aware of it yet) they are very close to disruput the time continuum with Bra being born one year later than what was already established. Unless Bulma gets confined in the ROSAT while being pregnant?
Time (literally) will tell.

[Vados_chan]

I really wish people would stop using that stupid number system that AT used as a joke for BoG

[Marlowe89]

I really wish people would stop using that stupid number system that AT used as a joke for BoG

I really wish you would actually post something contributive instead of insulting the opinions of other people.

Until there's some official statement outright declaring Toriyama's numbers as non-canon or invalid, we should be entirely free to use them if we want to. Some might assume that they've been retconned, which is fine, but that's not directly confirmed by Toriyama or any other representative involved in Super.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Piccolo ピッコロ - 890,000,000 (Without weights max. power versus Frost)

Hmm.. I thought that Piccolo in the Cell Games should be around or close to Semi-Perfect Cell tier (2nd form)? He should be just above a billion in Cell Games, and maybe 2-3B in the Majin Buu Saga, then even higher than this in the current tournament. A lot of us are underestimating Piccolo I noticed. When he fused with Kami at first, he was THE strongest character until Vegeta and Trunks were ascended SSJ. That would bring him to around 400-500 million in the Android Saga. To not be twice as strong as that level in more than a decade he had to train, I find that hard to believe.

[TheMikado]

Piccolo ピッコロ - 890,000,000 (Without weights max. power versus Frost)

Hmm.. I thought that Piccolo in the Cell Games should be around or close to Semi-Perfect Cell tier (2nd form)? He should be just above a billion in Cell Games, and maybe 2-3B in the Majin Buu Saga, then even higher than this in the current tournament. A lot of us are underestimating Piccolo I noticed. When he fused with Kami at first, he was THE strongest character until Vegeta and Trunks were ascended SSJ. That would bring him to around 400-500 million in the Android Saga. To not be twice as strong as that level in more than a decade he had to train, I find that hard to believe.

People aren't under estimating they are extrapolating based on the multipliers and SSG feats.
SSJ2 =SSJ x2 = Piccolo at best during Buu saga
SSJ3 is SSJ2x4 or Piccolo=SSJ2 X 4.
This still puts him at Z SSJ3 levels.
If SSJ Goku fought Beerus at higher levels than Rageta 10% and base Goku is SSJ3 levels now then the official x50 multiplier would mean that to be SSJ level of Goku while fighting frost Piccolo would need almost a 50000% power boost. If is Piccolo was only half as strong as Goku in he Champa arc he would still need around a 25000% power boost to get in the vincinity (half as strong) as the SSJ Goku we say fight Beerus and Frost.

[Chiki]

I really wish people would stop using that stupid number system that AT used as a joke for BoG

Why on earth would it be a joke?

Also it was definitely true at the time because in the movie, Beerus said he was using 70% of his power. The numbers Toriyama gave match up perfectly.

[namekiansaiyan]

Everyone should stop using the 6-10-15 scale and multipliers for certain transformations to guess and place power levels as I think instead we should only use evidence from the fights in the show and how they play out.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So if anyone had to guess, what level was Beers most likely fighting Super Saiyan God Goku at?

[RandomGuy96]

Around 10 percent.

[ZombieVito]

Around 10 percent.

Pretty much. Goku and Vegeta still need to be in the 8-9% range by the U6 arc.

[TheMikado]

Around 10 percent.

Pretty much. Goku and Vegeta still need to be in the 8-9% range by the U6 arc.

What so what was SSJ Goku with God power then? Plus wouldn't that put Rageta in the same tier as SSB??

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Rageta pushed Beers to use 10% of his power, yet Super Saiyan God Goku did nothing close to that...

[ssbgoku]

Let's try and figure out how much precents of power beerus used against ssg, here go my take on it:

1) Beerus has noted that he was forced to use around 10% of his power to one shot rage vegeta.
2) Beerus considered ssg goku impressive and wanted to fight him again
3) Beerus has powered up a few times while fighting ssg goku. so ssg goku is already at above 10% of beerus of power. I would say between 10% and 20%.

Later Whis commented how much they improved, which could be again assigned to only their's base form as ssg was not accessible to them as King kai mentioned goku got access to god powers again while transforming in ssb. Now we know Golden frieeza was stronger ssb while still nothing to god of destruction. Later Goku and vegeta both trained in rosat so they gained a bit.

goku kkx10 - 12
beerus - 10
ssb goku /golden frieeza- 1.2
ssg goku - 1.1
regeta - 0.1

Yeah I know it sounds so ridiculous especially with hit keeping up with kkx10 goku even although he should be dust after one punch from that goku. At this point I believe we should just stop debating about it, as neither Akira or Toei/his workers/editors care about something like that.

1) goku being still so far weaker then beerus even as ssb - hit keeping up with kkx10 goku doesn't make sense
2) Kaioken being only base multiplier - hit's comment about goku's power being multiplied doesn't make sense.

Let's give up... I can not make sense out of it.

[Faisal Shourov]

Around 10 percent.

Pretty much. Goku and Vegeta still need to be in the 8-9% range by the U6 arc.

What so what was SSJ Goku with God power then? Plus wouldn't that put Rageta in the same tier as SSB??

It would for a short while. It was described as a mutation or something. However the rage boost is not true power so it can't be scaled to anybody in any manner.

[Saiyan007]

Omni King >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone else


This guy can destroy all 12 universes in a blink of an eye if he felt like it

[Lord Beerus]

Beerus: "If he felt like it, Omni-King could wipe out all 12 universes in the blink of an eye!"

Straight from Herms.

Omni King rules all.

[Lord Frieza]

If Goku ever gets close to the Omni-King's suggested power Screw Attack will have a lot of word eating to do.