Goku's speed feat perhaps more impressive than we thought

[GodVegetto91]

http://www.t5forums.com/forum/the-vs-se ... tc/page478

Thanks to MasashiHideaki we've got some incredible numbers some guy put out by using some form of math.


Originally posted by Darkseeker1379 View Post
104.93 Decillion times FTL? Freaking sweet.

However according to the guy down below.

It's A LOWBALL.

The actual "lowball".

Would be planck time.

Which puts Goku at bare minimum Tredecillion times FTL to Quattuordecillion times FTL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_large_numbers

Planck time is 10-44 seconds.

Basically 44 zeroes backwards like this:




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time

0.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 000.000.01 Second.

It hilariously exceeds yoctosecond and attosecond by a huge margin.


Although planck time isn't on this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second


It by far outclasses yoctosecond and attosecond aswell as decillion times FTL.

This is about Goku's "Faster than Time" Feat against Hit in episode 39 of Super btw..

[Speedster]

First probably you can title the thread more meaningfully as I am sure quite a few people (especially those obsessed with the dick measuring contest of Goku with Superman) could be searching about how fast Goku is now that is shown moving in "frozen time". Anyway. Before continuing let me also say I am all for Goku having impressive feats and all but I am not going to lie or bullshit about it.

I have already described in a previous post that there is a vital difference between time stop and time skip. I repeat that post below.

The technique is called timeSKIP and not timeFREEZE/timeSTOP. They have things in common and that is why it was simply described as time freeze by Jaco in order to deliver the gist of it. But they have notable differences too.

So what are the differences? Well, imagine this fight was happening with the fighters wearing watches. If the technique was an actual time stop technique (like Guldo's for example), time stops flowing for everyone but the user. So when Guldo releases time back, Krillin's watch will be showing the exact same time as the moment Guldo stopped the time. On the other hand when Hit does Tokitobashi the time still continues to flow for his opponent. When Hit releases time back, Goku's watch will be 0.1seconds ahead of the instant Hit initiated Tokitobashi.

Now to better understand what is going on imagine timelines are like a film with frame ratio of 100 frames per second. This means that an interval of 0.1 seconds has 10 frames. When Hit uses Tokitobashi he makes people "skip"/"lose"/"fail to perceive" 10 frames from their timelines while he himself can still utilise these 10 frames to move, etc. In other words it is like recording a video at 100 frames per second and Hit uses Adobe Premier Pro to edit out 10 sequential frames here and there, and people watch the edited version.

Now let's see some of the physics and how and why Planck time would be applicable to be used if the technique was actual time stop.

The Planck instant (5x10^-44 seconds) is the shortest meaningful amount of time i.e. the shortest interval where you can theoretically measure or detect a change. Practically with todays’ instrumentation we cannot even measure below 10 attoseconds (10^-17 seconds) but anyway here we are talking about what is theoretically possible (in thought experiments). And a Planck instant is the shortest theoretical time interval in real physics because this is the time light (the fastest in the real universe) needs to travel one Planck length (the smallest meaningful distance in the real universe - that is because it is impossible to determine the difference between two locations in spacetime less than one Planck length apart due to quantum effects). Anyway to cut the long story short if you were to visualise reality like a video that would be one being recorded at a frame rate of 2*10^43 frames per second i.e. each frame would be 5*10^(-44) seconds. As in videos, frames are still pictures and a sequence of multiple still pictures per second is perceived as motion.

So yeah if someone literally stops time then it would mean that everyone but themselves are locked inside that “still 5*10^-44seconds shortest frame” so if their opponent is shown moving in that "still frame" then they would indeed have to move at those ridiculous speeds that were calculated in the OP's post. But Hit’s technique is time SKIP not STOP. Hit's opponents do experience time flow. When Hit "freezes" time he freezes a sequence of frames. Guldo on the other hand (who can literally stop time freezes) just one time frame (of duration equal to one Planck instant).

Anyway the bottom line is that Goku's feat is unquantifiable.

[ryan s]

First probably you can title the thread more meaningfully as I am sure quite a few people (especially those obsessed with the dick measuring contest of Goku with Superman) could be searching about how fast Goku is now that is shown moving in "frozen time". Anyway. Before continuing let me also say I am all for Goku having impressive feats and all but I am not going to lie or bullshit about it.

I have already described in a previous post that there is a vital difference between time stop and time skip. I repeat that post below.

The technique is called timeSKIP and not timeFREEZE/timeSTOP. They have things in common and that is why it was simply described as time freeze by Jaco in order to deliver the gist of it. But they have notable differences too.

So what are the differences? Well, imagine this fight was happening with the fighters wearing watches. If the technique was an actual time stop technique (like Guldo's for example), time stops flowing for everyone but the user. So when Guldo releases time back, Krillin's watch will be showing the exact same time as the moment Guldo stopped the time. On the other hand when Hit does Tokitobashi the time still continues to flow for his opponent. When Hit releases time back, Goku's watch will be 0.1seconds ahead of the instant Hit initiated Tokitobashi.

Now to better understand what is going on imagine timelines are like a film with frame ratio of 100 frames per second. This means that an interval of 0.1 seconds has 10 frames. When Hit uses Tokitobashi he makes people "skip"/"lose"/"fail to perceive" 10 frames from their timelines while he himself can still utilise these 10 frames to move, etc. In other words it is like recording a video at 100 frames per second and Hit uses Adobe Premier Pro to edit out 10 sequential frames here and there, and people watch the edited version.

Now let's see some of the physics and how and why Planck time would be applicable to be used if the technique was actual time stop.

The Planck instant (5x10^-44 seconds) is the shortest meaningful amount of time i.e. the shortest interval where you can theoretically measure or detect a change. Practically with todays’ instrumentation we cannot even measure below 10 attoseconds (10^-17 seconds) but anyway here we are talking about what is theoretically possible (in thought experiments). And a Planck instant is the shortest theoretical time interval in real physics because this is the time light (the fastest in the real universe) needs to travel one Planck length (the smallest meaningful distance in the real universe - that is because it is impossible to determine the difference between two locations in spacetime less than one Planck length apart due to quantum effects). Anyway to cut the long story short if you were to visualise reality like a video that would be one being recorded at a frame rate of 2*10^43 frames per second i.e. each frame would be 5*10^(-44) seconds. As in videos, frames are still pictures and a sequence of multiple still pictures per second is perceived as motion.

So yeah if someone literally stops time then it would mean that everyone but themselves are locked inside that “still 5*10^-44seconds shortest frame” so if their opponent is shown moving in that "still frame" then they would indeed have to move at those ridiculous speeds that were calculated in the OP's post. But Hit’s technique is time SKIP not STOP. Hit's opponents do experience time flow. When Hit "freezes" time he freezes a sequence of frames. Guldo on the other hand (who can literally stop time freezes) just one time frame (of duration equal to one Planck instant).

Anyway the bottom line is that Goku's feat is unquantifiable.

hit freezes time though, time skip is just the name of the technique, 12:57 | Jaco: "He's vanishing mid-attack. Completely."
　13:22 | Galactic King: "He might be time-skipping. I've only heard rumors about it myself, but supposedly some people can cause a slight skip in time. I believe it was roughly a 0.1 second skip. Simply put, he can freeze time for everything but himself for 0.1 seconds."
　13:51 | Goku: "Freeze things for 0.1 seconds?"
　13:54 | Jaco: "It may just be 0.1 seconds, but for someone as quick as him,"
　13:59 | Jaco: "that's more than enough time to gain an advantage."

i don`t think they meant a series of frames, that is certainly overthinking it

[Speedster]

hit freezes time though, time skip is just the name of the technique,
12:57 | Jaco: "He's vanishing mid-attack. Completely."
　13:22 | Galactic King: "He might be time-skipping. I've only heard rumors about it myself, but supposedly some people can cause a slight skip in time. I believe it was roughly a 0.1 second skip. Simply put, he can freeze time for everything but himself for 0.1 seconds."
　13:51 | Goku: "Freeze things for 0.1 seconds?"
　13:54 | Jaco: "It may just be 0.1 seconds, but for someone as quick as him,"
　13:59 | Jaco: "that's more than enough time to gain an advantage."

i don`t think they meant a series of frames, that is certainly overthinking it

They just went with a simple explanation to deliver the gist of it to Goku as the difference is subtle. It remains an undeniable fact though that when Hit "re-initiates time" everyone finds themselves 0.1 seconds ahead of the time Hit "froze time". That is why they say he skips 0.1 seconds. So when Goku moved inside that frozen frame the duration of the frame was not a Planck instant. On the other hand Guldo does literally stop time so when he starts it again we are still in the same very first frame. Not 0.1 or 0.5 seconds after; just one Planck instant after.

[ryan s]

hit freezes time though, time skip is just the name of the technique,
12:57 | Jaco: "He's vanishing mid-attack. Completely."
　13:22 | Galactic King: "He might be time-skipping. I've only heard rumors about it myself, but supposedly some people can cause a slight skip in time. I believe it was roughly a 0.1 second skip. Simply put, he can freeze time for everything but himself for 0.1 seconds."
　13:51 | Goku: "Freeze things for 0.1 seconds?"
　13:54 | Jaco: "It may just be 0.1 seconds, but for someone as quick as him,"
　13:59 | Jaco: "that's more than enough time to gain an advantage."

i don`t think they meant a series of frames, that is certainly overthinking it

They just went with a simple explanation to deliver the gist of it to Goku as the difference is subtle. It remains an undeniable fact though that when Hit "re-initiates time" everyone finds themselves 0.1 seconds ahead of the time Hit "froze time". That is why they say he skips 0.1 seconds. So when Goku moved inside that frozen frame the duration of the frame was not a Planck instant. On the other hand Guldo does literally stop time so when he starts it again we are still in the same very first frame. Not 0.1 or 0.5 seconds after; just one Planck instant after.

yes but in the clips of him freezing time at least in episode 40 it is literally the same a Guldos, from what i saw Goku was not ahead of time but again i could be wrong but it was not shown that way

[Polyphase Avatron]

If it were an actual time stop it would mean Hit would be ridiculously slow, not able to change his attack pattern in 0.1 seconds across less than a meter of distance.

Time skip makes more sense.

Also, stopped time is stopped time, Planck instants notwithstanding. Even if you could move in under a Planck instant, you still wouldn't be able to move if time was literally stopped.

Really I'm waiting for a guidebook or something to come out and clarify the nature of the technique.

[ryan s]

If it were an actual time stop it would mean Hit would be ridiculously slow, not able to change his attack pattern in 0.1 seconds across less than a meter of distance.

Time skip makes more sense.

Also, stopped time is stopped time, Planck instants notwithstanding. Even if you could move in under a Planck instant, you still wouldn't be able to move if time was literally stopped.

Really I'm waiting for a guidebook or something to come out and clarify the nature of the technique.

Haha DBS has not been very consistent so i would not be surprised and every time it is shown it is a clear time sop

[dario03]

Yeah I think it is different than time stop or Goku not being affected by it is due to the technique just not working on him instead of pure speed.
-If it was pure speed then shouldn't Goku have been moving during it but slower before using KK10?
-When he did move during it shouldn't Hit have been faster since Hit would be moving his normal speed (which kept up with SSB) and Goku would be moving at most 10x faster but slowed down immensely by the technique.
-When Hit uses the technique and hits Goku a bunch of times all the hits hit in a series and not as just one big hit which is what I would expect if it was time freeze.
-Nobody has compared the move to Guldo even though Vegeta has seen him do it and Krillin fought him and both are there.
-Goku in base was able to predict Hit's moves and block the moves back when it had a 0.1 seconds limit. Which really doesn't add up since during the time stop Hit can land multiple hits. Also if Goku blocked before time stops then Hit should see the block and be able to adjust and if Goku is blocking after time stops then he would be blocking after getting hit.

[theherodjl]

Simply put, Goku's feat isn't more impressive than what DB usually demonstrates .
The feat is not presented as 'proof' of their speed on any real scientific or mathematical scale, rather DB's ever constant "X-character is stronger & faster" formula which makes very little attempt to correlate increases in power to actual numerical percentages. Even if it did there is still no consensus on what those numbers 'should' be. That's one reason power levels stopped being used in-story and why this conundrum exists among fans who refuse to let this decades-old debate die.

[Hugo Boss]

They just went with a simple explanation to deliver the gist of it to Goku as the difference is subtle. It remains an undeniable fact though that when Hit "re-initiates time" everyone finds themselves 0.1 seconds ahead of the time Hit "froze time". That is why they say he skips 0.1 seconds. So when Goku moved inside that frozen frame the duration of the frame was not a Planck instant. On the other hand Guldo does literally stop time so when he starts it again we are still in the same very first frame. Not 0.1 or 0.5 seconds after; just one Planck instant after.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. In order for Goku to understand Hit's ability is necessary Galatic King simplifies his explanation and, then, he says this: "Simply put, he can freeze time for everything but himself for 0.1 seconds."

In other words, only Hit moves during those 0.1 seconds, time resumes in the same instant it was frozen.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I was under the impression that Goku was simply moving so fast that Hit had would have no idea where he was before stopping time, thus Hit stops time almost at random, fails to find Goku for lack of any idea of his general location, and gets clobbered when the time stop expires.

[dario03]

I was under the impression that Goku was simply moving so fast that Hit had would have no idea where he was before stopping time, thus Hit stops time almost at random, fails to find Goku for lack of any idea of his general location, and gets clobbered when the time stop expires.

Yeah the entire move doesn't really add up if it is literally stopping time and is done by somebody as fast as Hit. Goku in base was able to predict Hit's moves and block the moves back when it had a 0.1 seconds limit. But during time stop Hit can land multiple hits so why would that work? Doesn't seem like it should since if Goku blocked before time stops then Hit should see the block and be able to adjust and if Goku is blocking after time stops then he would be blocking after getting hit.

[Speedster]

Well probably the technique slows down Hit as well so he can only move at relative speeds i.e. speeds corresponding to the speed difference between his and his opponent. Equivalently if you think it with energies, Hit removes kinetic energy from everything including himself but himself is left with some kinetic energy (probably equal to the difference between his and the one his opponent had). With the surplus energy he moves and attacks his opponent but this energy is not that much to allow him to move super-fast in that frozen timeframe environment. Plus he also has to leave most energy for the attack itself anyway. That is by the way why I think Hit kept saying that he got stronger and Goku also saying that Hit’s power up attack hurt. Hit does have to increase his energy output to pull an extended Tokitobashi, to stop a 10x more powerful opponent and with the remaining energy move, land more punches and these punches to be more powerful than before too.

[ryan s]

Well probably the technique slows down Hit as well so he can only move at relative speeds i.e. speeds corresponding to the speed difference between his and his opponent. Equivalently if you think it with energies, Hit removes kinetic energy from everything including himself but himself is left with some kinetic energy (probably equal to the difference between his and the one his opponent had). With the surplus energy he moves and attacks his opponent but this energy is not that much to allow him to move super-fast in that frozen timeframe environment. Plus he also has to leave most energy for the attack itself anyway. That is by the way why I think Hit kept saying that he got stronger and Goku also saying that Hit’s power up attack hurt. Hit does have to increase his energy output to pull an extended Tokitobashi, to stop a 10x more powerful opponent and with the remaining energy move, land more punches and these punches to be more powerful than before too.

i think that could work, hit stops time and he slows down, it would also make sense to why he covered Goku with ice looking things in episode 40 as Goku has surpassed time skip

[hellobooboo14]

The impression I got after episode 39 and 40 is that Toei is trying to tell us two different things one (through dialogue) which is different to what was shown through feats.

[dario03]

The impression I got after episode 39 and 40 is that Toei is trying to tell us two different things one (through dialogue) which is different to what was shown through feats.

Exactly. And I'm more inclined to go with the feats since the dialogue was a explanation from a guy that has never even seen the move before and just told us about something that he heard of that might be what was happening.