Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Manga Discussion:

In the last chapter Magetta seemed almost invulnerable. I assume Vegeta would be able to damage him in SSJB, but decided not to use the form. The Metalmen would likely win against Frost, for example, even if the later is the better hand-to-hand combatant, stronger and faster. Certainly one of the more impressive examples of durability in the series.

I hope Cabba's fight gives us some statements for comparison sake.

[Chiki]

In the ep 42 preview, Goku powers up in base form like he did in RoF. Hmm...

Please no, please God base no! We don't need literally another wrench to throw into this insane mix

Goku is as strong as a Super Saiyan God in his base form and has been for quite some time. It is only on this forum that people seem to think that Goku is only as strong as Super Saiyan 3 (with this weird two bases theory), despite him taking hits from Beerus and not dying, while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got wasted in two hits. People here really underestimate how powerful these characters have become.

That's not the two bases theory. There are 3 theories:

1. All tournament contenders are around SSG level or above
2. Two base theory (Goku can turn god ki on and off)
3. Base is not as strong as SSG anymore retcon theory (this is the one you refer to)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Beerus alone is strong enough to destroy the 7th Universe on his own, and if he was to fight with Champa, both 6th & 7th Universes would be destroyed. So, Zenno should be at least 12 times stronger than Beerus & Champa.

All Goku needs is a new transformation (Super Saiyan White?) with a huge multiplier to surpass them all. Even if that isn't enough for him to surpass Zenno, Vegetto could still surpass him.

Personally, I don't see Super ending with Goku being below #1 in the ranks. When he goes to train Oob, he is #1 in the 12 Universes.

That's really far-fetched to think about. Dragon Ball's main theme is "there's always someone better".

Not really. Goku was #1 on Earth after he surpassed God & defeated Piccolo, until we learned about aliens. Then Goku became #1 in the universe after he defeated Freeza, the strongest alien in the universe. After that, what followed was Artificial Humans & magical creatures, which were all surpassed in the end. Even in the AfterLife, Goku was #1 there as well. The whole point of Oob was that Goku was bored because there is nothing better these days, and Toriyama even called him #1 in the universe when the manga ended, which doesn't sound like there is always someone better. GT ended the same way, the big enemies were all artificial beings. Even in the movies after Coola, most of the enemies were also artificial beings.

[Noah]

... And Toriyama even called him #1 in the universe when the manga ended..

How so? If we exclude the events of BoG/RoF and Super, Gohan is still the strongest in the universe in EoZ along with SSJ3 Gotenks

[Bullza]

That's not the two bases theory. There are 3 theories:

Well it certainly isn't #2 because there is no two base theory. So either it's #1 and all characters are SSJG level and more which is possibly far fetched but not necessarily.

The only one I'd really be dubious about is Cabba because he's only a young Saiyan who hasn't even heard of Super Saiyan so for him to be equal to Base Vegeta who is equal to SSJG is very farfetched but it's possible.

Or #3 is the case and Base/SSJ was SSJG level just during the Beerus fight and then then most if the power went dormant afterwards. So Base is just SSJ3 level or more.

The latter would make more sense but the former is more likely.

[Doctor.]

I just wish we saw some sparring matches between the characters. A Mr. Boo vs Goku would be ideal to see at what level base Goku is.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

... And Toriyama even called him #1 in the universe when the manga ended..

How so? If we exclude the events of BoG/RoF and Super, Gohan is still the strongest in the universe in EoZ along with SSJ3 Gotenks

That's what he said. Since we have no idea what happened if we ignore BoG/FnF/Super, we have no idea how strong Goku is either. We know he was weaker than Gohan & Gotenks in Boo arc, but we don't know for sure where he stands 10 years later.

But the point is, even if Goku is actually #2 and Toriyama got it wrong, Toriyama didn't have "there is always someone better" in his mind.

[ssbgoku]

I just wish we saw some sparring matches between the characters. A Mr. Boo vs Goku would be ideal to see at what level base Goku is.

Yeah I would love to see that fight or some sparring to see where base goku could be placed. If not some comment comparing Mr. boo directly with oob and then oob vs goku to see how he would fare against him.

Also anyone wants Mr. buu to merge with oob as in gt, I would believe so as Mr. buu has not point existing besides having fun with Mr. Satan. Majinuub I wonder how far he would reach(SSG level ?)

[apex_pretador]

Anyone still trying to make a buu-BoG-RoF-U6 arc list? Here's mine:

Note: units are 100% healthy freeza's

Majin buu arc

Spoiler:

Goku = 0.4 , SS = 20 , SS2 = 50 , SS3 = 140 (suppressed) FP = 200
Vegeta = 0.3 , SS = 15 , Majin = 20 , SS2 = 50
Gohan = 0.24 , SS = 12 , SS2 = 30 , Z sword training = 48 , Full power unlocked = 360
Gotenks (pre) = 20 , SS = 80
Gotenks (post) = 40 , SS = 160 , SS3 = 320
Piccolo = 12
Fat buu = 80 , enraged = 100
Skinny buu = 125
Super buu = 260 , Buuccolo = 272.3 , buutenks = 592 , buuhan = 632.3
Vegetto = 100 , Super vegetto = 2000
Kid buu = 216

Now super:

High end numbers:
BoG

Spoiler:

Goku SS3 = 480
Vegeta = 120 (SS2) , 2400 (raging)
Beerus = 2000 (suppessed) , 5000 (powerup vs vegeta)
Goku (everyone's ki) = 4800
SSG goku = 50,000 (initial) , 200,000 (full power) , 190,000 (Super Saiyan)
Beerus (Suppressed) = 100,000 , final powerup = 230,000

RoF

Spoiler:

Piccolo = 20
Base gohan = 5 , SS = 250, enraged = 400
Tagoma = 75 , Ginyu = 90
Gotenks = 160
Freeza = 365
Final form freeza = 3650 , Golden form = 450,000
Base goku = 3600 , SS goku = 180,000 , SSB goku = 360,000
Beerus = ??? , whis = ???

Universe 6

Spoiler:

Base goku = 4400 = Vegeta
Assault frost = 5000
Final form frost = 20,000, weakened = 8000
SS goku = 44,000 (suppressed) , 220,000 (Full power) , 440,000 (SSB)
Cabba = 2200, SS = 55,000
Buu = as strong as plot needs him to be
Piccolo = 2000
SSB KKx10 Goku = 4,400,000
Champa = 8,000,000
Beerus = 10,000,000
Whis = 16,600,000

Low - end numbers

BoG

Spoiler:

Goku SS3 = 360
Vegeta = 90, raging = 900
Beerus = 2000 (vs everyone)
Goku (everyone's ki) = 1500
SSG Goku = 5000 (initial) , 15,000 (FP) , SS = 14,000
Beerus = 8000 , Final powerup = 16000

RoF

Spoiler:

Piccolo = nerfed to unknown levels
Gohan = 0.3 , SS = 15
Tagoma = 4 , Ginyu = 6
Freeza = 20 , 2nd form = 40 , 3rd form = 65, final form = 100 , golden = 25,000
Goku base = 100 , SS = 5,000 , SSB = 20,000
Beerus = ??? , whis = ???

Universe 6

Spoiler:

Base goku = vegeta = 150
SS goku = vegeta = 7,500
SSB goku = vegeta = 30,000
SSB KK x10 goku = 40,000
Beerus = 50,000
Cabba = 140 , SS = 3500
Frost = 160 (assault), 400 (final) , 200 (weakened)
Piccolo = 30

So, both scales need plot on either buu or piccolo.

[Chiki]

That's not the two bases theory. There are 3 theories:

Well it certainly isn't #2 because there is no two base theory. So either it's #1 and all characters are SSJG level and more which is possibly far fetched but not necessarily.

The only one I'd really be dubious about is Cabba because he's only a young Saiyan who hasn't even heard of Super Saiyan so for him to be equal to Base Vegeta who is equal to SSJG is very farfetched but it's possible.

Or #3 is the case and Base/SSJ was SSJG level just during the Beerus fight and then then most if the power went dormant afterwards. So Base is just SSJ3 level or more.

The latter would make more sense but the former is more likely.

First, a theory is still a theory even if it's wrong. It just means it's a false theory. Second, you have no evidence that the two base theory is false, other than "the anime never told us about it!".

The idea that "most of the power went dormant.." afterwards is contradicted by Toriyama himself, so your idea is a lot weaker than either of the two. It's much better to say that there are two bases or that SSG is a lot less than 60% of Beerus now.

Please don't be so arrogant and sure of your view when even Toriyama has outright stated that it is false.

[Volk]

Maybe Zeno isnt strong at all. His body guards might be strong, but that doesnt mean he is. Actually, the fact that he has body guards points towards the fact that he might just be a weakling. Think about it, if he was 12 times stronger than beerus, he would have no need for body guards to protect him from someone weaker than Beerus (Goku). Maybe Beerus and Champa were just scared of the influence he had in the 12 universes. It was stated that he could chose a new God of Destruction if need be, maybe they were just scared of being replaced, not necessarily of his power.

[Sora Saiyan]

Maybe Zeno isnt strong at all. His body guards might be strong, but that doesnt mean he is. Actually, the fact that he has body guards points towards the fact that he might just be a weakling. Think about it, if he was 12 times stronger than beerus, he would have no need for body guards to protect him from someone weaker than Beerus (Goku). Maybe Beerus and Champa were just scared of the influence he had in the 12 universes. It was stated that he could chose a new God of Destruction if need be, maybe they were just scared of being replaced, not necessarily of his power.

It definitely seems that Beerus and Champa were scared of his power. Beerus saying Zenos can wipe out all 12 universes in an instant shows they believe Zenos is super powerful. Now if Zenos is actually super strong or weak is yet to be seen, but we know Beerus and Champa think he's super powerful.

[Speedster]

Maybe Zeno isnt strong at all. His body guards might be strong, but that doesnt mean he is. Actually, the fact that he has body guards points towards the fact that he might just be a weakling.

Freeza had bodyguards (see Zarbon) and even a special squad (Ginyu force) and he was like more than 1000-5000x stronger than them. And Kaioshin has a bodyguard (Kibito) and he is much stronger than him too. Not to mention Nappa and Vegeta or Drum/Tambourine and Piccolo Daimao. The only case an attendant/bodyguard turned out to be stronger than their master is with the gods of destruction and Whis/Vados. But even then, no one in the universe can challenge Beerus or Champa so Whis and Vados are not needed to protect Beerus/Champa anyway.

Generally, attendants were never actually needed to offer any protection to their masters-- they just carry out things or take care of opposition that their masters aren't bothered to deal with personally. And from an out of universe POV they are there for storytelling purposes. 1. Toriyama introduces characters (at least) in pairs to give some background context through dialogues instead of monologues and 2. when it comes to villains it gives an in-between obstacle of an in-between tier of strength to hype up the opposition or trigger/show progress. In this case we haven't seen the context of the Omni-king but we might in the future. Anyway, if the show says that the Omni-king can wipe out all 12 universes in an instant and no one disputes it then that's the way it is. And to be frank I genuinely believe that Zen'o might turn out to be Toribot in disguise so I am ot surprised he is bounded to be able to do and rule anything.

[Bullza]

Second, you have no evidence that the two base theory is false

There is no two base theory. That was my theory and it's not the case anymore.

The idea that "most of the power went dormant.." afterwards is contradicted by Toriyama himself, so your idea is a lot weaker than either of the two. It's much better to say that there are two bases or that SSG is a lot less than 60% of Beerus now.

No it's not contradicted. Toriyama said he absorbed the power and that can be true whether he was able to bring out the same God power after having fought Beerus.

We know that SSJ = SSG at that point. We don't really know how Base compares. Maybe SSJ is still equal to SSG or maybe it isn't. Chances are SSJ is still probably SSG level for simplicity.

There's definitely no two bases and SSG definitely is a lot less than 60% because SSJB is less than 10%.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is no two base theory. That was my theory and it's not the case anymore.

The idea originated from Dragon Ball Heroes. And while it appears that there aren't 2 base forms in the anime, it is possible that they do exist in the manga continuity.

[Volk]

There is no two base theory. That was my theory and it's not the case anymore.

The idea originated from Dragon Ball Heroes. And while it appears that there aren't 2 base forms in the anime, it is possible that they do exist in the manga continuity.

Mystic Goku... think about it. Gohan doesnt undergo much of a transformation when he goes Mystic, he just powers up the same as if he were going SSJ but instead turns that into Mytic Form. Maybe the same applies for Goku. He can power up his base form to a limit before reaching SSJ, in which he has tapped into some God Ki in base form. SSJ would be a step above that into where he taps into enough Godki to push him over the hill into SSJ. Then SSB would be total God Ki infused with SSJ.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is no two base theory. That was my theory and it's not the case anymore.

The idea originated from Dragon Ball Heroes. And while it appears that there aren't 2 base forms in the anime, it is possible that they do exist in the manga continuity.

Mystic Goku... think about it. Gohan doesnt undergo much of a transformation when he goes Mystic, he just powers up the same as if he were going SSJ but instead turns that into Mytic Form. Maybe the same applies for Goku. He can power up his base form to a limit before reaching SSJ, in which he has tapped into some God Ki in base form. SSJ would be a step above that into where he taps into enough Godki to push him over the hill into SSJ. Then SSB would be total God Ki infused with SSJ.

Base Goku with SSG powers in the movies doesn't have some of the SSG powers, he has nearly all of them with an insignificant amount missing.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He seemed to keep a lot in Super as well. At least in Super Saiyan.

[Chiki]

Second, you have no evidence that the two base theory is false

There is no two base theory. That was my theory and it's not the case anymore.

The idea that "most of the power went dormant.." afterwards is contradicted by Toriyama himself, so your idea is a lot weaker than either of the two. It's much better to say that there are two bases or that SSG is a lot less than 60% of Beerus now.

No it's not contradicted. Toriyama said he absorbed the power and that can be true whether he was able to bring out the same God power after having fought Beerus.

We know that SSJ = SSG at that point. We don't really know how Base compares. Maybe SSJ is still equal to SSG or maybe it isn't. Chances are SSJ is still probably SSG level for simplicity.

There's definitely no two bases and SSG definitely is a lot less than 60% because SSJB is less than 10%.

Toriyama said he can use SSG power without transforming, meaning he can use it at Base. Therefore, your views are wrong, boom, kaput, goodbye. Sorry.

Also Dragon Ball Heroes uses the two base theory so there's still a very good chance that it is correct.

===

I have to admit though, after seeing the Kaioken x10 bullshit I'm not as convinced that there is a right or wrong answer to any theory. The power levels in Super make no sense and it's possible that Toriyama himself doesn't know the power levels. And if he himself doesn't know, then perhaps there is no right or wrong answer to this.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Toriyama said he can use SSG power without transforming, meaning he can use it at Base. Therefore, your views are wrong, boom, kaput, goodbye. Sorry.

Doesn't Whis' castle comparison contradict that, though?

But considering Beers is still way above Goku, Whis might just be seeing the Saiyans God levels are weak.