Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[namekiansaiyan]

Toriyama said he can use SSG power without transforming, meaning he can use it at Base. Therefore, your views are wrong, boom, kaput, goodbye. Sorry.

Doesn't Whis' castle comparison contradict that, though?

But considering Beers is still way above Goku, Whis might just be seeing the Saiyans God levels are weak.

That is what Whis is saying and that is why Super Saiyan Blue kaioken x10 is still weaker than Beerus.

[RandomGuy96]

Question- does the video game that talks about "Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku" or whatever his post-god base is called also include different slots for the various versions of his base form?

[Pannaliciour]

The problem I have with Super is that their base power LOOKS very very weak:

1) Did they forgot Base Goku 》4th form Freeza? And 4the form Freeza was somewhere around mystic gohan and buu-han? So the question is why couldn't Goku AND Vegeta beat Frost in their base-form? I just can't believe Frost final form 》Frieza 4th form.

2) how can Cabba base be around Frieza 4th form? He was not much weaker than base vegeta who should be stronger than base Goku against 4th form freeza. Cabba didn't had god training, didnt had ssj god powers. Nothing about mystic or so. No real warrior race. Tell me how the f... is Cabba that strong!

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's possible that the U6 fighters were just...strong. Does there need to be an issue with that?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Question- does the video game that talks about "Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku" or whatever his post-god base is called also include different slots for the various versions of his base form?

Other than base Goku with SSG power, there is only one base adult Goku in the game.

[apex_pretador]

Do games really mean anything? Potential unlock is treated as transformation for krillin and gohan.

In a game I played, I beat the crap out of fat buu by using buu arc piccolo, and super by using piccolo jr - sr fusion.
In a game, kid buu was stronger than super vegetto.
In a game, freeza was massively stronger than super saiyan goku.

[Chiki]

Toriyama said he can use SSG power without transforming, meaning he can use it at Base. Therefore, your views are wrong, boom, kaput, goodbye. Sorry.

Doesn't Whis' castle comparison contradict that, though?

But considering Beers is still way above Goku, Whis might just be seeing the Saiyans God levels are weak.

I don't see how it contradicts it. I guess in Super, SSG is a lot weaker than in BoG, and maybe SSG Goku is only 20% of Beerus?

Maybe Toriyama made SSG weaker in Super because Super was going to be an anime with at least 100 episodes and there wouldn't be enough material to write about if Goku was already 60% Beerus after the first arc. I don't know. Honestly, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to anything apart from statements contradicted by Toriyama himself (Goku can't access his SSG power).

Do games really mean anything? Potential unlock is treated as transformation for krillin and gohan.

In a game I played, I beat the crap out of fat buu by using buu arc piccolo, and super by using piccolo jr - sr fusion.
In a game, kid buu was stronger than super vegetto.
In a game, freeza was massively stronger than super saiyan goku.

This is a bad argument. I beat SS4 Gogeta with Mr. Satan in BT3, I guess that means Satan > SS4 Gogeta right? There's a difference between your examples and mine.

It's possible that the U6 fighters were just...strong. Does there need to be an issue with that?

Buu was considered a powerhouse by Goku, and Toriyama clearly thinks he would have done well at the tournament.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Thinking Boo would do well and seeing Boo do well are entirely different.

The U6 warriors ended up being more of a challenge than expected, so Boo could've easily lost to Botamo. Boo isn't exactly known for being smart.

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama said he can use SSG power without transforming, meaning he can use it at Base. Therefore, your views are wrong, boom, kaput, goodbye. Sorry.

Doesn't Whis' castle comparison contradict that, though?

But considering Beers is still way above Goku, Whis might just be seeing the Saiyans God levels are weak.

Whis talks about the level of gods. So, he could be referring to beings like himself, Beerus and Super Saiyan God. To me, it seems he thinks these guys, despite their own diferences, are altogether in their own dimension, while Goku and Vegeta, with or without Super Saiyan, are in a level where they can sense the presence of guys who belong to that dimension, but still have quite a room for improvement.

[Bullza]

The idea originated from Dragon Ball Heroes.

The game came up with the idea that the Base form as of Resurrection F was beyond God but there was no indication that there was also another Base form as of Resurrection F that was not beyond God as well.

Toriyama said he can use SSG power without transforming, meaning he can use it at Base. Therefore, your views are wrong, boom, kaput, goodbye. Sorry.

No he said he absorbed the power so he didn't have to transform into SSG anymore. That doesn't mean he has the power in base, he could just have it as a Super Saiyan instead so Base would still not be equal to SSG.

Also Dragon Ball Heroes uses the two base theory so there's still a very good chance that it is correct.

No it doesn't.

[apex_pretador]

Do games really mean anything? Potential unlock is treated as transformation for krillin and gohan.

In a game I played, I beat the crap out of fat buu by using buu arc piccolo, and super by using piccolo jr - sr fusion.
In a game, kid buu was stronger than super vegetto.
In a game, freeza was massively stronger than super saiyan goku.

This is a bad argument. I beat SS4 Gogeta with Mr. Satan in BT3, I guess that means Satan > SS4 Gogeta right? There's a difference between your examples and mine.

Mr Satan >> Everyone in DB

and there is difference between fights in storyline and regular fights / tournament fights. So your example is bad example.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The idea originated from Dragon Ball Heroes.

The game came up with the idea that the Base form as of Resurrection F was beyond God but there was no indication that there was also another Base form as of Resurrection F that was not beyond God as well.

Wrong. Base Goku (the same base Goku that has KK, SS, SS2, SS3, SSG, and later SSB as transformations) transforms into Saiyan beyond God Goku in Heroes, with his appearance remaining exactly the same.

[Khin]

Beerus alone is strong enough to destroy the 7th Universe on his own, and if he was to fight with Champa, both 6th & 7th Universes would be destroyed. So, Zenno should be at least 12 times stronger than Beerus & Champa.

That's not how it works.For example, Saiyan Arc Vegeta can bust the earth,the solar system have around 8 planets.Does that mean Super Perfect Cell is only around 8x stronger than Saiyan Arc Vegeta ? Freeza in his 1st Form destroyed a planet 10x the density of Earth with ease.Does that mean he can destroy a Solar System in his Final Form ,who is way stronger than his First Form ? Destroying Planets,Solar Systems,Galaxy and Universe isn't just about "I can destroy 1 galaxy, meaning a guy 2x stronger than me can destroy 2 galaxy.".

[vegeku]

My Dragon Ball Super power level list speculation (based on the unit scale of the manga)

Battle of Gods Arc

Spoiler:

Wing Wing 1,300 – 17,000(battle mode)
Bulma 4
Mr. Satan 18
Krilin 15,000
Tien 50,000
Goten 23,000,000
Trunks 25,000,000
Piccolo 1,400,000,000(w/weights)
Mr. Buu 30,000,000,000
Gohan 120,000,000,000(weak ultimate)
Gotenks 50,000,000,000 - 100,000,000,000(Super Saiyan) – 200,000,000,000(Super Saiyan 3)
Vegeta 240,000,000 – 12,000,000,000(Super Saiyan) – 24,000,000,000(Super Saiyan 2) - 990,000,000,000(mad for seconds)
Goku 300,000,000 – 15,000,000,000(Super Saiyan) – 30,000,000,000(Super Saiyan 2) – 120,000,000,000>(Super Saiyan 3) – 4,800,000,000,000(Super Saiyan God 80%) – 6,000,000,000,000 (Super Saiyan God 100%) – 5,900,000,000,000(Super Saiyan post god)
Bills 10,000,000,000,000
Whis 15,000,000,000,000

Resurrection of Frieza Arc

Spoiler:

Pilaf(kid) 2
Agent Shu(kid) 3
Agent Mai(kid) 3
Jaco 2,800
Master Roshi 1,500 – 3,000(ultra)
Krilin 15,000
Tien 50,000
Piccolo 1,400,000,000(w/weights) – 1,900,000,000
Gohan 800,000,000 – 4,000,000,000>(forced Super Saiyan)
Frieza Soldiers 200 - 2,000
Shisami 21,000
Tagoma 22,000 – 2,600,000,000(Frieza trained) – 2,800,000,000(Ginyu)
Sorbet 5,000
Frieza 420,000(resurrected) – 5,300,000,000(post training) – 84,000,000,000(4th form) – 9,000,000,000,000>>(Golden form)
Goku 130,000,000,000(Whis trained/god ki) – 7,800,000,000,000(Super Saiyan Blue)
Vegeta 120,000,000,000(Whis trained/god ki) – 7,200,000,000,000(Super Saiyan Blue)
Bills 10,000,000,000,000
Whis 15,000,000,000,000

Multiverse Tournament Arc

Spoiler:

Mr. Buu 30,000,000,000
Goku 350,000,000(after HTC 3 years) – 17,500,000,000(Super Saiyan) - 150,000,000,000(god ki) - 9,000,000,000,000(Super Saiyan Blue) – 10,500,000,000,000>>(SSB + kaiokenx10)
Piccolo 2,400,000,000(after training w/Gohan)
Vegeta 340,000,000(after HTC 3 years) – 17,000,000,000(Super Saiyan) - 140,000,000,000(god ki) - 8,400,000,000,000(Super Saiyan Blue)
Monaka 40
Botamo 230,000,000
Frost 270,000,000(1st form) – 540,000,000(assault form) – 4,500,000,000(Final form)
Mageta 250,000,000(suppressed) – 15,000,000,000
Kabe 260,000,000 – 13,000,000,000(Super Saiyan)
Hit 8,900,000,000,000<
Bills 10,000,000,000,000
Whis 15,000,000,000,000
Champa 9,800,000,000,000
Vados 15,200,000,000,000

Notes:
* I make a distinction of two base status: normal and using god ki
* > means power decreases quickly during battle, < means power increases quickly during battle
* Goku's kaioken ads power to its SSBlue transformation based on his base god ki but not multiplies the transformation
* Fusion doesn't follow standard multipliers when Super Saiyan transformations
* Gohan is not able to reach his full potential on his Ultimate and Super Saiyan state

See in my signature the complete power list of the series according manga unit scale and my criteria

[Low Tone G]

My Dragon Ball Super power level list speculation (based on the unit scale of the manga)

Battle of Gods Arc

Spoiler:

Wing Wing 1,300 – 17,000(battle mode)
Bulma 4
Mr. Satan 18
Krilin 15,000
Tien 50,000
Goten 23,000,000
Trunks 25,000,000
Piccolo 1,400,000,000(w/weights)
Mr. Buu 30,000,000,000
Gohan 120,000,000,000(weak ultimate)
Gotenks 50,000,000,000 - 100,000,000,000(Super Saiyan) – 200,000,000,000(Super Saiyan 3)
Vegeta 240,000,000 – 12,000,000,000(Super Saiyan) – 24,000,000,000(Super Saiyan 2) - 990,000,000,000(mad for seconds)
Goku 300,000,000 – 15,000,000,000(Super Saiyan) – 30,000,000,000(Super Saiyan 2) – 120,000,000,000>(Super Saiyan 3) – 4,800,000,000,000(Super Saiyan God 80%) – 6,000,000,000,000 (Super Saiyan God 100%) – 5,900,000,000,000(Super Saiyan post god)
Bills 10,000,000,000,000
Whis 15,000,000,000,000

Resurrection of Frieza Arc

Spoiler:

Pilaf(kid) 2
Agent Shu(kid) 3
Agent Mai(kid) 3
Jaco 2,800
Master Roshi 1,500 – 3,000(ultra)
Krilin 15,000
Tien 50,000
Piccolo 1,400,000,000(w/weights) – 1,900,000,000
Gohan 800,000,000 – 4,000,000,000>(forced Super Saiyan)
Frieza Soldiers 200 - 2,000
Shisami 21,000
Tagoma 22,000 – 2,600,000,000(Frieza trained) – 2,800,000,000(Ginyu)
Sorbet 5,000
Frieza 420,000(resurrected) – 5,300,000,000(post training) – 84,000,000,000(4th form) – 9,000,000,000,000>>(Golden form)
Goku 130,000,000,000(Whis trained/god ki) – 7,800,000,000,000(Super Saiyan Blue)
Vegeta 120,000,000,000(Whis trained/god ki) – 7,200,000,000,000(Super Saiyan Blue)
Bills 10,000,000,000,000
Whis 15,000,000,000,000

Multiverse Tournament Arc

Spoiler:

Mr. Buu 30,000,000,000
Goku 350,000,000(after HTC 3 years) – 17,500,000,000(Super Saiyan) - 150,000,000,000(god ki) - 9,000,000,000,000(Super Saiyan Blue) – 10,500,000,000,000>>(SSB + kaiokenx10)
Piccolo 2,400,000,000(after training w/Gohan)
Vegeta 340,000,000(after HTC 3 years) – 17,000,000,000(Super Saiyan) - 140,000,000,000(god ki) - 8,400,000,000,000(Super Saiyan Blue)
Monaka 40
Botamo 230,000,000
Frost 270,000,000(1st form) – 540,000,000(assault form) – 4,500,000,000(Final form)
Mageta 250,000,000(suppressed) – 15,000,000,000
Kabe 260,000,000 – 13,000,000,000(Super Saiyan)
Hit 8,900,000,000,000<
Bills 10,000,000,000,000
Whis 15,000,000,000,000
Champa 9,800,000,000,000
Vados 15,200,000,000,000

Notes:
* I make a distinction of two base status: normal and using god ki
* > means power decreases quickly during battle, < means power increases quickly during battle
* Goku's kaioken ads power to its SSBlue transformation based on his base god ki but not multiplies the transformation
* Fusion doesn't follow standard multipliers when Super Saiyan transformations
* Gohan is not able to reach his full potential on his Ultimate and Super Saiyan state

See in my signature the complete power list of the series according manga unit scale and my criteria

I actually like it. Good job... Maybe FnF and U6 SSB Goku and Vegeta are a little bit too high, but yeah... It's reasonable.

[Pannaliciour]

Guys back in BOG Toriyama sad in a interview:

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?
I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

So it will happen, to bad in his last interview he had no plans for it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Has that ever happened before?

[Pannaliciour]

I think he meant after a fight and not during a fight.

[Bullza]

The idea originated from Dragon Ball Heroes.

The game came up with the idea that the Base form as of Resurrection F was beyond God but there was no indication that there was also another Base form as of Resurrection F that was not beyond God as well.

Wrong. Base Goku (the same base Goku that has KK, SS, SS2, SS3, SSG, and later SSB as transformations) transforms into Saiyan beyond God Goku in Heroes, with his appearance remaining exactly the same.

That's not really what I was saying but ok, it doesn't particularly matter anyway. It was just a game.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's not really what I was saying but ok, it doesn't particularly matter anyway. It was just a game.

The thing is though, base/SS Goku & Vegeta in the manga so far don't appear to have any SSG power. If the Champa arc of the manga really is the continuation of the movies (and it most likely is, since Toriyama is heavily involved, and the BoG & FnF arcs in the manga are rushed & skipped respectively), we will most likely get confirmation that there really are 2 base forms.