Super 17 arc

[Hellspawn28]

There is also the issue of Cell and Freeza being immortal in Hell when Goku said that the dead dies forever if they are killed off again.

[Kamiccolo9]

There is also the issue of Cell and Freeza being immortal in Hell when Goku said that the dead dies forever if they are killed off again.

In the Otherworld tournament filler, the dead couldn't die in Hell. GT's being perfectly consistent with its source material here.

Even in the manga, we don't know what would happen if a dead guy died in Hell. This is a non-issue.

[dbzfan7]

There is also the issue of Cell and Freeza being immortal in Hell when Goku said that the dead dies forever if they are killed off again.

In the Otherworld tournament filler, the dead couldn't die in Hell. GT's being perfectly consistent with its source material here.

Even in the manga, we don't know what would happen if a dead guy died in Hell. This is a non-issue.

I recall Krillin and Yamcha on Grand Kaio's world being threatened to possibly die again if Kid Boo blew up the planet in filler? I don't quite remember it all, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on that in relation to this.

[Kuririn Fan]

There is also the issue of Cell and Freeza being immortal in Hell when Goku said that the dead dies forever if they are killed off again.

In the Otherworld tournament filler, the dead couldn't die in Hell. GT's being perfectly consistent with its source material here.

Even in the manga, we don't know what would happen if a dead guy died in Hell. This is a non-issue.

I recall Krillin and Yamcha on Grand Kaio's world being threatened to possibly die again if Kid Boo blew up the planet in filler? I don't quite remember it all, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on that in relation to this.

Its not filler, i mean that scene of Kuririn and Yamcha is, but the concept isnt, Goku says that to Vegeta in the manga when they fought Pure Boo. If he died that time, he would be gone for good.

[dbzfan7]

In the Otherworld tournament filler, the dead couldn't die in Hell. GT's being perfectly consistent with its source material here.

Even in the manga, we don't know what would happen if a dead guy died in Hell. This is a non-issue.

I recall Krillin and Yamcha on Grand Kaio's world being threatened to possibly die again if Kid Boo blew up the planet in filler? I don't quite remember it all, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on that in relation to this.

Its not filler, i mean that scene of Kuririn and Yamcha is, but the concept isnt, Goku says that to Vegeta in the manga when they fought Pure Boo. If he died that time, he would be gone for good.

I know that. I was asking Kamiccolo's his thoughts and how it relates to his point, not yours. The interaction between Goku and Vegeta is in the manga, and I'm fully aware of that. Though thinking about it, he said specifically hell.

[Kuririn Fan]

Its GT. Everything is possible if Toei says so...

[Kamiccolo9]

The "can't die in Hell" filler actually predates Vegeta's situation in the manga. Any contradiction there is on Toriyama, not Toei.

But yeah, Killing and co. Weren't in Hell.

[Zephyr]

Did the Dragon Balls do that?

I'm certain that Shenlong attributed them coming back to life to the Dragon Balls acting strangely. From there, I'm extrapolating. The fact that they can just do that is what makes them having bodies in the Super 17 arc believable enough for me.

You're right though, it's more than likely Toei just continuing their tradition of showing them having bodies in the anime. However, that still creates the problem of "well why didn't they go ballistic before?" It's a can of worms I didn't really want to open up, but might as well at this point. After Cell was killed, they did rampage in Hell, and Goku and Paikuhan went down there to put them away. Why didn't they rampage during the Buu arc? Perhaps there was some manner of more powerful regulation around that point in time, that is now for whatever reason absent. Perhaps they were too busy fearing for their own existence, what with Buu potentially destroying everything? Or, like you said, maybe it was something similar to how Freeza was in F, where he looks like he's got his body, but it might be an ethereal "body" that doesn't grant them their battle powers and abilities?

For in universe simplicity I just prefer to think that this is the first time they got their bodies, but it's certainly explicable if one takes the route of more complexity.

With materials we wonder how and where they can even get them? With earth they have several resources. Question sure how they can stack up to Freeza, but they still have earth's full resources. It's not like they made the Cyborgs from rock. In hell, where would they get these resources? I don't think there's electrical equipment or ore anywhere.

Well, we know that Hell's the size of the universe itself. Pretty big place. It's also in the afterlife, there's gotta be some magic-y stuff that could be abused, or reverse engineered. They're like Super Scientist God Super Scientists, after all, if anyone could build a new #17 in Hell, I'd expect them to.

He discovered 17's trick early on, but then kept shooting ki at him anyways. I guess we could say he thought he could Yakon, 17, but he didn't seem to show that was his plan. It's a viewers possible interpretation.

Ah yeah, that. Yeah, I just assumed he was trying to Yakon him. Seems the only plausible explanation. That, or he was so desperate that he didn't know what to do, so he did something. And of course in classic DB fashion, he ignores the absolute plethora of things he could have done. Though I do have to give GT credit: they used the Taiyoken a lot more than I thought they would. There was a part during the fight with Ozaru Baby where I jokingly thought "gee Goku, sure would be nice if you used the-" Goku: "TAIYOKEN!" Made me laugh.

I'm not sure if they mean because a machine mutant combining with him would grant more power, but it seemed like he was always the supreme uber best even before that possibility for some reason.

I think him being half Machine Mutant should certainly have some relevance at least. They're definitely making it seem like he was originally planned to be the ultimate cyborg. I dunno, I think I can buy it well enough. Maybe he was just too damned difficult to brainwash into obedience, but Cell and Machine Mutant #17 were more programmed from their initial creation?

Gotta give you props and mad respect for at least trying and thinking of ways to explain things. It's really refreshing when the average responce is just shit on GT errors, and then scramble around to cover up DB/Z/Super/EOZ errors. I've heard the ludicrous theories people take as their head canon, but for GT it's just everything is dumb, everything is wrong, no one is allowed to try to come up with plot closing theories here because "GRR ME HATES GT"

Thanks! I'll admit, I used to be on the GT hate bandwagon years ago, citing all of these inconsistencies, hiccups, plotholes, and such as reasons for the hate. Thinking "oh, Toriyama wouldn't do this shit!", not realizing that the manga already had a fucking wealth of problems all its own. The manga is not a narrative masterpiece. Then Toriyama starts making new stuff, and it's....mostly the same headaches being caused. Instead of trying to cling to my hate for GT, I realized that if I'm going to give Toriyama a pass (which I have to, if I'm going to be enjoying DB at all), then I should be giving Toei a pass too. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the majority of those on the GT hate bandwagon haven't bothered watching it recently (and I mean actually watching through it, not sampling clips on Youtube).

And I've found that I enjoy much more of the franchise that way. On one hand, I'm able to watch them, and when an inconsistency pops up, I can chuckle and shake my head, and enjoy it for what it is. When I want to make everything work together, then I have a nice series of logic puzzles to solve, and that's really enjoyable for me. I think it's the same kind of enjoyment a lot of you guys must get from piecing together battle power lists.

This became all the more clear upon my rewatch, when I found that GT did a lot of stuff that Super doesn't that I really enjoyed (and on the flipside, Super also does a lot that I really enjoyed that GT doesn't). I find them both to be ultimately mediocre continuations of the series, but still not without their own individual merits. I think any official continuation of this series is doomed to mediocrity, at least in the writing department, because of how much of a box Toriyama started writing himself into with the Freeza arc. With each subsequent arc, it takes an increasing degree of pedantry and obsession with the intimate relationships between the intricate in universe factoids to piece together a wholly consistent story, and nobody making the series cares all that much to rise to that challenge. And that's fine by me, logic puzzles and all that.

Also, I guess another thing, is that GT is probably much worse if you only watch the dub with the replacement score. Nadolny and Menza are nails on chalkboard for me. Nozawa's great as Goku (especially Kid Goku), so that solves the former, and Tokunaga....well he's not Menza. I really didn't care that much for Tokunaga's score (felt almost as bland to me as Sumitomo's score for Super), but it's still lightyears ahead of Menza's score.

Its GT. Everything is possible if Toei says so...

It's Dragon Ball. Everything is possible if...well, anyone says so.

RandomGuy96 has a quote from Herms in his sig that helps illustrate this nicely:

The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger.

And then an Earth scientist makes robots stronger than that.

Cue power inflation up through the Buu arc, where we get fucking Super Vegetto.

And then Freeza trains for four months, in a story by Toriyama (not Toei), and surpasses that.

On one hand, yeah GT does some crazy shit, but so does Toriyama. Consistently. On the other hand, yeah Toriyama's crazy shit can be explained, but so can Toei's.

I think the very fact that this started off as a gag manga makes all of this crap all the more forgivable to me. The story starts off silly, and then gets so serious and full of itself and keeps trying to expand on, and on, and on that it's just....fucking silly.

[ABED]

Thanks! I'll admit, I used to be on the GT hate bandwagon years ago, citing all of these inconsistencies, hiccups, plotholes, and such as reasons for the hate. Thinking "oh, Toriyama wouldn't do this shit!", not realizing that the manga already had a fucking wealth of problems all its own. The manga is not a narrative masterpiece. Then Toriyama starts making new stuff, and it's....mostly the same headaches being caused. Instead of trying to cling to my hate for GT, I realized that if I'm going to give Toriyama a pass (which I have to, if I'm going to be enjoying DB at all), then I should be giving Toei a pass too. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the majority of those on the GT hate bandwagon haven't bothered watching it recently (and I mean actually watching through it, not sampling clips on Youtube).

And I've found that I enjoy much more of the franchise that way. On one hand, I'm able to watch them, and when an inconsistency pops up, I can chuckle and shake my head, and enjoy it for what it is. When I want to make everything work together, then I have a nice series of logic puzzles to solve, and that's really enjoyable for me. I think it's the same kind of enjoyment a lot of you guys must get from piecing together battle power lists.

I wasn't on the hate bandwagon, but I did have a similar moment where I decided to stop over analyzing these sorts of things and just watch things and go with my gut. I either like it or I don't. Sure there are times when something are too big of a narrative leap for me or I find confusing, but I'm sure that there are a number of instances where I can look at something I do like that has those same problems and it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment.

The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger.

I don't know what would constitute "rationalizing" any of this. It's fantasy and something would ultimately boil down to "just because". And does Herms think that making it tongue in cheek would help the thrilling danger. There's a time for earnestness and a time for humor.

[Danfun64]

-Reusing #17? Lame! Fanfcition!
Well your god almighty Toriyama did an even worse thing! He brought freaking Freeza back and gave him an asspulled powerup too. And immediately afterwards he brought Frost...Freeza's doppelgänger! At least #17 was an underused villain and Super #17 had a cool design. Also unlike Freeza, #17 had a new abilty he didn't have before. The ability to absorb energy blasts. Freeza still had the same old attacks - he could just kick/punch harder.

It's not so much reusing 17 as giving him a status he never had (acting like he was meant to be the ultimate when there is no indication of this status in DBZ). At least (to me anyway) Freeza's motivations are understandable and even if Freeza's training period was too short, the whole concept makes sense, which to me Super 17 doesn't.

As for the Garlic Jr saga, I liked the idea of it, but really didn't like the execution (how the Black Water Mist worked made no sense to me.) As for Frost... I haven't seen Super yet, so I can't really comment on it...

[ABED]

(how the Black Water Mist worked made no sense to me.)

What didn't make sense about it?

[Kuririn Fan]

I rewatched GT in December and i still don't like it. It's really bad and doesn't feel like Dragon Ball. I cringed the whole way through and 64 episodes felt like eternity. The ending was ok, i'll give em that.

[ABED]

I rewatched GT in December and i still don't like it. It's really bad and doesn't feel like Dragon Ball. I cringed the whole way through and 64 episodes felt like eternity. The ending was ok, i'll give em that.

Why watch that many episodes of something you don't like, much less rewatch them? I wouldn't say it doesn't feel like Dragon Ball. It's just someone else's take on the material, so it will have a different feel, but it doesn't come off as completely foreign. It's like a TV show where the showrunner left and someone else took over.

[Danfun64]

(how the Black Water Mist worked made no sense to me.)

What didn't make sense about it?

The idea that the moment that it reaches an area it corrupts everything, but if someone happens to be under water (Krillin and Maron) or putting your head in a crack in the rocks (Gohan) or imply isn't breathing the stuff at all when it first reaches an area it doesn't affect that person after the first several seconds of the mist reaching an area. Also, why would Kami have something like the black water mist available in the first place?

I wonder if there is fanfic where

a. The black water mist was created by Garlic Jr, maybe or maybe not using stuff from Kami's Lookout, but Garlic Jr was the one who mixed it at the very least.

b. The black water mist doesn't affect any being who wasn't able to think like a humanoid, so basically animals wouldn't have been affected by it.

c. Like the original arc, the black water mist stays over an area until it is purged by the holy water or some other way. However, its effects don't disappear after several seconds of being in an area.

d. The only non-animal/plant/robot/whatever beings not affected by the black water mist would be either those pure of heart, demons, or beings very close to demon physiology or whatever (which includes Piccolo).

e. Roshi wearing a cape while under the effects of the black water mist is explained... OK, this point isn't as important as the previous ones, but...

[Speedster]

There is also the issue of Cell and Freeza being immortal in Hell when Goku said that the dead dies forever if they are killed off again.

In the manga in chapter 205

Goku: Gee, I didn't even pack a lunch...
Oni: You will be fine sir! You're already dead, so it's not as if you could starve to death!

Also DBZ in episode 55 after Piccolo smashes Chaozu head to the ground

Tenshihan: Chaozu! Are you okay, Chaozu?!
Kaiosama: Hey, don't panic. You guys are already dead. You don't need to worry yourself pointlessly. But... the pain of the body is just a remnant of when you were alive. It will soon be gone. 3...2...1... there
Chaozu is back good as new.
Chaozu: Huh?
Kaiosama: See?

So the concept of the bodies in afterlife (despite suffering pain/hardships) being immortal is there in both the manga and the Z anime. It is not something GT came up with for first time. And I guess if you want to fit in Toriyama's Buu arc of "you can't die second time as you will cease to exist" (which by the way is a contrived plot device to create tension) you could say that it is only applicable when you get completely wiped out.

[dbzfan7]

I'm certain that Shenlong attributed them coming back to life to the Dragon Balls acting strangely. From there, I'm extrapolating. The fact that they can just do that is what makes them having bodies in the Super 17 arc believable enough for me.

You're right though, it's more than likely Toei just continuing their tradition of showing them having bodies in the anime. However, that still creates the problem of "well why didn't they go ballistic before?" It's a can of worms I didn't really want to open up, but might as well at this point. After Cell was killed, they did rampage in Hell, and Goku and Paikuhan went down there to put them away. Why didn't they rampage during the Buu arc? Perhaps there was some manner of more powerful regulation around that point in time, that is now for whatever reason absent. Perhaps they were too busy fearing for their own existence, what with Buu potentially destroying everything? Or, like you said, maybe it was something similar to how Freeza was in F, where he looks like he's got his body, but it might be an ethereal "body" that doesn't grant them their battle powers and abilities?

For in universe simplicity I just prefer to think that this is the first time they got their bodies, but it's certainly explicable if one takes the route of more complexity.

Well when I said like Freeza in F, perhaps they'll all on tree's now XP. Though wasn't it the 17's that caused the rift by opening hell? I know Fusion reborn had Shenlong say something, but I think it was the 17's who did it. You'd know better than me though since you recently watched the arc. I would say perhaps hell has no escape (Kinda like what we saw in the filler with the Ginyu Force), and so the villains accepted there was no way out (til the 17's did there thing). Why bother revolting when there's no victory.

Well, we know that Hell's the size of the universe itself. Pretty big place. It's also in the afterlife, there's gotta be some magic-y stuff that could be abused, or reverse engineered. They're like Super Scientist God Super Scientists, after all, if anyone could build a new #17 in Hell, I'd expect them to.

Is hell said in a guidebook or the series said to be that big? I can agree that if it's that big, supposedly materials could be found in such a vast landscape. Gero had a loooong time to do so. Isn't really that much more or less silly then LOLFREEZA/VEGETA gains. Might as well think this could be possible too.

Ah yeah, that. Yeah, I just assumed he was trying to Yakon him. Seems the only plausible explanation. That, or he was so desperate that he didn't know what to do, so he did something. And of course in classic DB fashion, he ignores the absolute plethora of things he could have done. Though I do have to give GT credit: they used the Taiyoken a lot more than I thought they would. There was a part during the fight with Ozaru Baby where I jokingly thought "gee Goku, sure would be nice if you used the-" Goku: "TAIYOKEN!" Made me laugh.

That was my guess, but even still people find it kinda silly because with 19, who Super 17 is similar too, he knew not to bother keep firing ki. So it's like he didn't learn anything from that. We could say he thought by going SSJ4, he'd be on a whole other level to overpower 17 (Which he couldn't simply do with 19), and that could be why he tried it. Though I kinda think it would make more sense to at least pummel 17 first, before making such a risky move by giving him more ki.

I think him being half Machine Mutant should certainly have some relevance at least. They're definitely making it seem like he was originally planned to be the ultimate cyborg. I dunno, I think I can buy it well enough. Maybe he was just too damned difficult to brainwash into obedience, but Cell and Machine Mutant #17 were more programmed from their initial creation?

Eh you could call it a simple retcon I guess. Kinda like Beerus' insertion into Freeza's past, or Freeza simply always having the ability to train to get really really strong. When I think of it like that, this isn't so far fetched anymore.

Thanks! I'll admit, I used to be on the GT hate bandwagon years ago, citing all of these inconsistencies, hiccups, plotholes, and such as reasons for the hate. Thinking "oh, Toriyama wouldn't do this shit!", not realizing that the manga already had a fucking wealth of problems all its own. The manga is not a narrative masterpiece. Then Toriyama starts making new stuff, and it's....mostly the same headaches being caused. Instead of trying to cling to my hate for GT, I realized that if I'm going to give Toriyama a pass (which I have to, if I'm going to be enjoying DB at all), then I should be giving Toei a pass too. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the majority of those on the GT hate bandwagon haven't bothered watching it recently (and I mean actually watching through it, not sampling clips on Youtube).

And I've found that I enjoy much more of the franchise that way. On one hand, I'm able to watch them, and when an inconsistency pops up, I can chuckle and shake my head, and enjoy it for what it is. When I want to make everything work together, then I have a nice series of logic puzzles to solve, and that's really enjoyable for me. I think it's the same kind of enjoyment a lot of you guys must get from piecing together battle power lists.

This became all the more clear upon my rewatch, when I found that GT did a lot of stuff that Super doesn't that I really enjoyed (and on the flipside, Super also does a lot that I really enjoyed that GT doesn't). I find them both to be ultimately mediocre continuations of the series, but still not without their own individual merits. I think any official continuation of this series is doomed to mediocrity, at least in the writing department, because of how much of a box Toriyama started writing himself into with the Freeza arc. With each subsequent arc, it takes an increasing degree of pedantry and obsession with the intimate relationships between the intricate in universe factoids to piece together a wholly consistent story, and nobody making the series cares all that much to rise to that challenge. And that's fine by me, logic puzzles and all that.

Also, I guess another thing, is that GT is probably much worse if you only watch the dub with the replacement score. Nadolny and Menza are nails on chalkboard for me. Nozawa's great as Goku (especially Kid Goku), so that solves the former, and Tokunaga....well he's not Menza. I really didn't care that much for Tokunaga's score (felt almost as bland to me as Sumitomo's score for Super), but it's still lightyears ahead of Menza's score.

I gotta agree. I'm getting a new appreciation of looking at things in a different way, and through potential different theories. Helps that Super is just as looney as GT, though a lot of people don't want to admit it. I last watched it sometime ago, maybe a year ago in japanese. I remember being bored with the first arc. The second arc I liked or grew to like over time. The third arc's inconsistencies bothered me, and blinded me to other stuff it did well. The final arc was also some fun. I liked the japanese score. I did not like Pan early on and it took some time til she was tolerable to me. I know the feeling of clinging to hate. I still do for somethings, which is why I had to give up a forum account since I couldn't separate myself from said hate.

Except with GT and recently Super, it's practically impossible to make battle powers have any sort of sense . It's why I stopped more or less going to that Super thread. It's just arguing literal nonsense where nothing makes sense entirely. Like a puzzle where we have some of the pieces, some are missing, and the pieces we do have are torn up. It think it's much easier to figure and theorize the plot, then any of the BP's. The BP's may as well be whatever the hell they feel like.

The Freeza arc really was the last solid arc. After that it really does start to fall for different reasons. I feel today Toriyama needs an editor, and more people to help him create something. Toriyama himself admits to other people knowing Dragon Ball better than him, as well as other people having good ideas they could use like Toyotaro. I think he should work with other people to create something (Like an editor), and maybe we could get the brain child of Toriyama and some other talent to bring up some new experiences. I feel Toriyama goes uncontested, and so we're in a rut. The recent tournament was a nice distraction with some great potential future, but the I'm not entirely sold on Super. I consider both GT and Super to be pretty much on par with each other. Each doing something better and worse than each other.

It's Dragon Ball. Everything is possible if...well, anyone says so.

On one hand, yeah GT does some crazy shit, but so does Toriyama. Consistently. On the other hand, yeah Toriyama's crazy shit can be explained, but so can Toei's.

I think the very fact that this started off as a gag manga makes all of this crap all the more forgivable to me. The story starts off silly, and then gets so serious and full of itself and keeps trying to expand on, and on, and on that it's just....fucking silly.

It's just the ugly "C" word that raises it's head. The crazy shit depends on who makes it. Nonsense that's liked must really make sense because I liked it. Nonsense I hate is dumb and therefore is a bag of poop. It's dumb. It's kinda why I like to look a comic books and how people deal with those potentially confusing stories by several different writers.

[Hellspawn28]

Thanks! I'll admit, I used to be on the GT hate bandwagon years ago, citing all of these inconsistencies, hiccups, plotholes, and such as reasons for the hate. Thinking "oh, Toriyama wouldn't do this shit!", not realizing that the manga already had a fucking wealth of problems all its own. The manga is not a narrative masterpiece.

The manga is not a master piece, but from Pilaf - Freeza was a solid shonen manga. Cell and Buu saga had issues, but they are still decent. GT is not the worst anime ever, but it still not very good. I find the inconsistencies, writing and characters in GT to be much worst compare to the manga. I don't get why people are starting to hate on Toriyama and loving the Toei stuff from the 90's when it used to be the other way around. Most of the original stuff from Toei without Toriyama's story input was pretty awful when looking back on them.

[Kuririn Fan]

I rewatched GT in December and i still don't like it. It's really bad and doesn't feel like Dragon Ball. I cringed the whole way through and 64 episodes felt like eternity. The ending was ok, i'll give em that.

Why watch that many episodes of something you don't like, much less rewatch them? I wouldn't say it doesn't feel like Dragon Ball. It's just someone else's take on the material, so it will have a different feel, but it doesn't come off as completely foreign. It's like a TV show where the showrunner left and someone else took over.

Because it's still part of the franchise and i want to watch it all. And that was the first time i watched it in Japanese since i converted in August.

[dbzfan7]

Thanks! I'll admit, I used to be on the GT hate bandwagon years ago, citing all of these inconsistencies, hiccups, plotholes, and such as reasons for the hate. Thinking "oh, Toriyama wouldn't do this shit!", not realizing that the manga already had a fucking wealth of problems all its own. The manga is not a narrative masterpiece.

The manga is not a master piece, but from Pilaf - Freeza was a solid shonen manga. Cell and Buu saga had issues, but they are still decent. GT is not the worst anime ever, but it still not very good. I find the inconsistencies, writing and characters in GT to be much worst compare to the manga. I don't get why people are starting to hate on Toriyama and loving the Toei stuff from the 90's when it used to be the other way around. Most of the original stuff from Toei without Toriyama's story input was pretty awful when looking back on them.

People are not hating on Toriyama. They're starting to realize, he does crazy shit too, always has, and isn't really much different. Especially with his recent stuff. So now the toei stuff doesn't seem like the only crazy one anymore. Zephyr made note that he didn't even consider GT that good anyways. He merely has showed a much greater open mind that a lot of others refuse to show.

Your post also has nothing to do with this thread. It's just another "I hate GT post". If you'd like to stick to contributing to the Super 17 discussion, please do and try not to let hate be your driving force. If you're just going to be going on about how "I hate GT, Toriyama stuff is much better, toei stuff sucks", then you're offering nothing to the discussion. It'd be like if I kept going on F threads and kept saying "This movie and arc was shit. Really shit. Shouldn't have been made." I'd be adding nothing.

[Hellspawn28]

-Reusing #17? Lame! Fanfcition!
Well your god almighty Toriyama did an even worse thing! He brought freaking Freeza back and gave him an asspulled powerup too. And immediately afterwards he brought Frost...Freeza's doppelgänger! At least #17 was an underused villain and Super #17 had a cool design. Also unlike Freeza, #17 had a new abilty he didn't have before. The ability to absorb energy blasts. Freeza still had the same old attacks - he could just kick/punch harder.

I do admit that Super 17 had a cool design, but I still find his character dull. I put him on my top 5 least favorite characters in the series because he didn't much personality change to his character and he had no motivation to his character. Even Bebi wanted to rule the galaxy and wipe out the Saiyans. While Super #17 didn't seem like that he wanted to do much. Super #17 also reuse the ki drain attacks from #19 (Even Goku pointed it out), so they didn't give him anything new. I do admit the idea of Dr. Gero and Dr. Myuu teaming up is a cool idea, but I don't get why didn't create a new original cyborg. Super #17 is a super powerful version of himself similar to how Super #13 was (expect for he didn't absorb people).

At least with Freeza, you can argue that he is the most iconic villain in the series and it was made around the 30th anniversary. So the idea of Goku fighting his most iconic enemy seem like a good idea since Freeza's returns in the past are normally one sided defeats.