Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Sat May 07, 2016 6:35 am

Vados_chan wrote:Where would you guys place each of DBS Frieza's forms apart from Gold?
First form frieeza - perfect cell
Second form Frieeza - ssj2 kid gohan
Third form Frieeza - half of ssj3 goku
Fourth form frieeza - ssj3 goku

All dbs in order( I am omitting kaioken for obvious reasons):

whis/vados
beerus/champa
ssb goku/vegeta/hit
golden frieeza
ssj goku/vegeta - 30%-50% of ssj vegitto
magenta - buutenks
ssj cabba + rage boost - buu arc ultimate gohan
Fourth form Frost/ssj gohan - super buu
Fourth form frieeza/champa arc base goku/vegeta / Enraged Mr buu - ssj3 goku
TF Frost - 3/4 of ssj 3 goku
base cabba/TF Frieeza/Mr buu - half of ssj3 goku
SF Frieeza/Picoolo - ssj2 kid gohan
FF Frost- super perfect cell
FF frieeza/botamo/Base gohan - perfect cell

Worth to note:

- Picoolo is not noted about impressive gain in power, so he could be at the best ssj2 kid gohan and he would need to get 4 times stronger since buu arc anyway
- Mr Buu is still called crazy strong by base goku, so either goku was only reffering to enraged Mr buu which could be close to ssj3 goku, still base goku and vegeta would be around this level
- gohan was retrained by Picoolo from scratch so his base form would be only perfect cell or around his mssj cell arc level, while ssj would be above bog ssj3 goku/ssj3 gotenks and close to his ultimate level
- Frost held back against Picoolo or get really beaten up hard, also he may saving energy for further rounds.
- I stick to kaioken applying only base goku or else ssb is nothing to beerus and champa and also ssg would be like 6% ?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 07, 2016 6:47 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Bullza wrote:The Battle of Gods movie said he'd absorbed the power. The Battle of Gods arc said he absorbed the movie. The Resurrection F movie showed he was stronger than Super Saiyan. The Resurrection F manga showed he was stronger than Super Saiyan. The Resurrection F arc showed he was stronger than Super Saiyan.
And the Super manga makes no mention of having absorbed the SSG power & shows that he is weaker than Super Saiyan.
It doesn't have to make a mention of it, it was said in other versions. It didn't have to explain the events of the Resurrection F arc because readers knew of the story from other versions.

When did they show he was weaker than Super Saiyan?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Vados_chan » Sat May 07, 2016 7:15 am

First form frieeza - perfect cell
Second form Frieeza - ssj2 kid gohan
Third form Frieeza - half of ssj3 goku
Fourth form frieeza - ssj3 goku
Piccolo at the least should be Perfect Cell level at this point and he said that Frieza was on a whole another dimension iirc
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Sat May 07, 2016 7:49 am

Vados_chan wrote:
First form frieeza - perfect cell
Second form Frieeza - ssj2 kid gohan
Third form Frieeza - half of ssj3 goku
Fourth form frieeza - ssj3 goku
Piccolo at the least should be Perfect Cell level at this point and he said that Frieza was on a whole another dimension iirc
Well Back then Picoolo was not even noted to be stronger then cell arc mssj goku... I the gap between perfect cell and mssj goku could be 2 times or even 3. I believe Picoolo would be still below Perfect cell. First form frieeza at the best is between perfect cell and ssj2 kid gohan.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 07, 2016 8:29 am

Bullza wrote:It doesn't have to make a mention of it, it was said in other versions. It didn't have to explain the events of the Resurrection F arc because readers knew of the story from other versions.
They still explained what we needed to know from FnF. We didn't suddenly see SSB Goku & Vegeta training with Whis out of nowhere, we were informed of the FnF events. So far, the manga has everything you need to know.
Bullza wrote:When did they show he was weaker than Super Saiyan?
Base Goku & Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 07, 2016 9:08 am

They still explained what we needed to know from FnF. We didn't suddenly see SSB Goku & Vegeta training with Whis out of nowhere, we were informed of the FnF events.
Well obviously they would, they went from the end of the first arc to the start of the third arc in the space of a chapter, of course they'd give a brief recap of what happened in between or nobody would understand where the arc went.
Base Goku & Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo.
They never said that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 07, 2016 9:16 am

Bullza wrote:Well obviously they would, they went from the end of the first arc to the start of the third arc in the space of a chapter, of course they'd give a brief recap of what happened in between or nobody would understand where the arc went.
If they have bothered explained literally everything else why no mention that Goku has absorbed the power of SSG?
Base Goku & Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo.
They never said that.
Assault Form Frost was stronger than base Goku & Vegeta, while Piccolo could challenge a tired Final Form Frost. Vegeta then had to turn into a Super Saiyan to defeat him. So, Piccolo was stronger than the base Goku & Vegeta, or at the very least close to them. If they had the power of SSG, he wouldn't even be close to them.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Sat May 07, 2016 9:20 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Bullza wrote:Well obviously they would, they went from the end of the first arc to the start of the third arc in the space of a chapter, of course they'd give a brief recap of what happened in between or nobody would understand where the arc went.
If they have bothered explained literally everything else why no mention that Goku has absorbed the power of SSG?
Base Goku & Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo.
They never said that.
Assault Form Frost was stronger than base Goku & Vegeta, while Piccolo could challenge a tired Final Form Frost. Vegeta then had to turn into a Super Saiyan to defeat him.
Disagree Assault form Frost was weaker then base goku and vegeta. While Frost was serious goku was still warming up and praise him for good warm up. The context is very important here as goku mentioned that frost still is holding back one transformation more and only after frost's hestiation goku decided to power up into ssj.

Even Final form Frost was at least 5 times weaker then ssj goku.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 07, 2016 9:28 am

If they have bothered explained literally everything else why no mention that Goku has absorbed the power of SSG?
Because it was already explained in the series, the movie and by Toriyama himself. All the recap said was that Frieza was revived, Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis, became a SSJB and beat Frieza so it's not about to be mentioned there either.
Assault Form Frost was stronger than base Goku & Vegeta
That was never said either. Frost beat on Goku and it was revealed he'd done little to no damage at all before Goku said he was a slow starter. So Third Form Frost wasn't necessarily stronger than either.

Piccolo challenged Final Form Frost by fighting on the defensive and evasive. If Base Goku or Vegeta had done the same thing there's no saying they couldn't have pulled it off more successfully.

They're still weaker than Final Form Frost but Piccolo didn't even want to fight that form of him at all.

Also going by the anime they aren't as strong as SSJG anyway. Not even close.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 07, 2016 10:43 am

Bullza wrote:Because it was already explained in the series, the movie and by Toriyama himself. All the recap said was that Frieza was revived, Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis, became a SSJB and beat Frieza so it's not about to be mentioned there either.
It wasn't explained in the manga though, and it should have been.
That was never said either. Frost beat on Goku and it was revealed he'd done little to no damage at all before Goku said he was a slow starter. So Third Form Frost wasn't necessarily stronger than either.

Piccolo challenged Final Form Frost by fighting on the defensive and evasive. If Base Goku or Vegeta had done the same thing there's no saying they couldn't have pulled it off more successfully.
Base Goku was still at least close to Assault Form Frost, since he made him bleed. The fact that Piccolo is anywhere close to base Goku means that Goku doesn't have any SSG power, since Piccolo isn't anywhere close to SS3 to begin with, and base with SSG power, even in the anime, is stronger than SS3.
Also going by the anime they aren't as strong as SSJG anyway. Not even close.
Again, I'm talking about the manga.
ssbgoku wrote:While Frost was serious goku was still warming up and praise him for good warm up.
Not in the manga.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat May 07, 2016 2:56 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:Are you seriously saying that Piccolo is not even on that list, if that is the case then that power level list has no credibility.
Herms wrote out a long post using all the available evidence we have so far and you're saying that list has no credibility just because he didn't include Piccolo? We don't really know how strong Piccolo is. His training with Gohan wasn't in the manga so for all we know that scene could've been filler.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sat May 07, 2016 2:59 pm

Skar wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Are you seriously saying that Piccolo is not even on that list, if that is the case then that power level list has no credibility.
Herms wrote out a long post using all the available evidence we have so far and you're saying that list has no credibility just because he didn't include Piccolo? We don't really know how strong Piccolo is. His training with Gohan wasn't in the manga so for all we know that scene could've been filler.
You mean - it wasn't in Toriyama's script / outline. Super has 0 filler, at least filler in its true meaning.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 07, 2016 3:00 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:
Skar wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Are you seriously saying that Piccolo is not even on that list, if that is the case then that power level list has no credibility.
Herms wrote out a long post using all the available evidence we have so far and you're saying that list has no credibility just because he didn't include Piccolo? We don't really know how strong Piccolo is. His training with Gohan wasn't in the manga so for all we know that scene could've been filler.
You mean - it wasn't in Toriyama's script. Super has 0 filler, at least filler in its true meaning.
Anime-only would be the most fitting description.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat May 07, 2016 3:32 pm

How strong does everyone believe all of Frost's forms compare to Z characters?
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Sat May 07, 2016 4:19 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:How strong does everyone believe all of Frost's forms compare to Z characters?
maybe just me :P, but here how I see it ;p

First form frieeza - perfect cell
Second form Frieeza - ssj2 kid gohan
Third form Frieeza - half of ssj3 goku
Fourth form frieeza - ssj3 goku
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat May 07, 2016 5:16 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Anime-only would be the most fitting description.
Yeah what I meant was something extra included only in the anime. I think if it was in Toriyama's script then it probably would've been mentioned somewhere in the manga. I'm a big Piccolo fan and I would love for him to be one of the heavy hitters again but I can't just assume he's really strong without it being shown that he trained or anyone bringing up his power.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat May 07, 2016 5:30 pm

Skar wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Are you seriously saying that Piccolo is not even on that list, if that is the case then that power level list has no credibility.
Herms wrote out a long post using all the available evidence we have so far and you're saying that list has no credibility just because he didn't include Piccolo? We don't really know how strong Piccolo is. His training with Gohan wasn't in the manga so for all we know that scene could've been filler.
Herms put in Botamo and First Form Frost but is saying that Piccolo is not even close to these 2 which to me is just ridiculous. How can someone be so weak that he is nothing compared to First form Frost and also do so well against Final Form Frost. So Piccolo should at least be somewhere on that list instead of just ignoring him for no good reason


Also just beacuse Herms says something it does not mean he is right.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat May 07, 2016 6:13 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:Herms put in Botamo and First Form Frost but is saying that Piccolo is not even close to these 2 which to me is just ridiculous. How can someone be so weak that he is nothing compared to First form Frost and also do so well against Final Form Frost. So Piccolo should at least be somewhere on that list instead of just ignoring him for no good reason


Also just beacuse Herms says something it does not mean he is right.
I'm just saying I don't think it's fair to say it has no credibility just because he didn't include Piccolo. I'm a big Piccolo fan but to be honest he was sort of a non-factor so maybe Herms probably forgot to list him. Piccolo himself asked Frost to hold back and it was said that he was using up more of his stamina than Frost. We don't even really know how strong Frost or the base/normal SSJs were.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat May 07, 2016 6:31 pm

Skar wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Herms put in Botamo and First Form Frost but is saying that Piccolo is not even close to these 2 which to me is just ridiculous. How can someone be so weak that he is nothing compared to First form Frost and also do so well against Final Form Frost. So Piccolo should at least be somewhere on that list instead of just ignoring him for no good reason


Also just beacuse Herms says something it does not mean he is right.
I'm just saying I don't think it's fair to say it has no credibility just because he didn't include Piccolo. I'm a big Piccolo fan but to be honest he was sort of a non-factor so maybe Herms probably forgot to list him. Piccolo himself asked Frost to hold back and it was said that he was using up more of his stamina than Frost. We don't even really know how strong Frost or the base/normal SSJs were.
Herms said in his post that he is forgetting about Piccolo because he is irrelavent, even though if Piccolo never forced Frost to use his cheating move again, Goku would not have been reinstated so that to me says Frost would have struggled to win in the manga and impossible in the anime as he would have lost due to the Special Beam Cannon. If we can guess other characters power levels we can guess Piccolo's power.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat May 07, 2016 7:20 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:Herms said in his post that he is forgetting about Piccolo because he is irrelavent, even though if Piccolo never forced Frost to use his cheating move again, Goku would not have been reinstated so that to me says Frost would have struggled to win in the manga and impossible in the anime as he would have lost due to the Special Beam Cannon. If we can guess other characters power levels we can guess Piccolo's power.
How would we guess the power levels of other characters? We just know that 4th form Frost was weaker than SSJ Goku but we have no idea how strong SSJ Goku was. Was he using the normal pre-SSJG form or the God ki infused SSJ from BoG? I think Piccolo was meant to be the weakest out of the five U7 contestants and they would've likely mentioned it if he surpassed Mr. Buu or if he had any substantial power-up.
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