Anyone interested in discussing the social issues of DB?

[sintzu]

Is LGBT as big of a issue in Japan compare to the US ?

No, it's pretty much a western thing and the rest of the world doesn't put up with it.

So having an LGBT character in the show is "wrong?"

If the show was for adults then I wouldn't care but it's for kids and kids shouldn't be exposed to that kind of thing.

If DB is going to have that then it might as well have Goku and everyone else using drugs and acting like it's normal and healthy.

[Kamiccolo9]

Is LGBT as big of a issue in Japan compare to the US ?

No, it's pretty much a western thing and the rest of the world doesn't put up with it.

So having an LGBT character in the show is "wrong?"

If the show was for adults then I wouldn't care but it's for kids and kids shouldn't be exposed to that kind of thing.

If DB is going to have that then it might as well have Goku and everyone else using drugs and acting like it's normal and healthy.

Define "doesn't put up with it," because I'm quite sure you have no idea what you're talking about, especially since you seem to be afraid of the big, scary gays corrupting our youth, or some shit like that.

Comparing an LGBT lifestyle to doing drugs. Seriously, man?

[Cipher]

Is LGBT as big of a issue in Japan compare to the US? I support equal rights for everyone, but Dragon Ball is made for the Japanese audience and I don't think kids in Japan won't be into social issues of the real world or understand them.

They are not as "big an issue" in Japan because Japan is even more resistant to social change than the U.S.*

*Speaking reductively, obviously

There isn't the same kind of national conversation around them, from what I understand. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be, and it doesn't mean it's not there. It's finally starting to ramp up a bit, too, with 2013 seeing the first ward resolution officiating LGBT inclusion and sensitivity-training. Either way, gay people exist in Japan.

Either way, the thread is more, do we give Dragon Ball a pass for things like this? (Pictured: one of only two openly or even implicitly gay characters in the series)

And my vote would be: "No. That's really not okay, but it's understandable based on the circumstances the series was produced under" (Japan, '80s and '90s).

And then: Should we hope for better moving forward? To which my answer is, "That's be awesome, but I don't expect Toriyama to ever include something based solely on social awareness." And at the end of the day, even if that isn't the best, that's fine as long as we're able to acknowledge some of the problems the series has and why it has them.

Sintzu, you appear to have bought into a lot of rhetoric painting homosexulity as both deviant and teachable, and it isn't worth going further down that track in this thread. I'd encourage you to seek out first-person stories and other humanizing portrayals of gay men and women and see if it doesn't impact that viewpoint at all.

[sintzu]

Define "doesn't put up with it," because I'm quite sure you have no idea what you're talking about, especially since you seem to be afraid of the big, scary gays corrupting our youth, or some shit like that.

Comparing an LGBT lifestyle to doing drugs. Seriously, man?

What I'm talking about is that only a small number of countries act like it's normal and encourage it.

They're both bad habits that shouldn't be looked at as normal.

[LightBing]

I don't think it's fair to say Dragon Ball is all those things. It has moments that can be considered racist, sexist and homophobic. They seem to originate from a combination of ignorance and cultural influences, doesn't make it right, but we should take the context into account.
From what I remember there isn't any glorification of the negative acts, Dragon Ball didn't applaud Roshi or Oolong groping Bulma, for example. They are single out as perverts and creeps.

This topic is interesting to discuss, specially from an culture/historic point from a society, I think most of us at Kanzenshuu know superficially at best. However there shouldn't be any of this culpability and need for the show to redeem itself, I find that notion ridiculous. It's opening a huge can of worms.

We should point out these moments and see what we get in return. If for example, Korean people are being constantly portrayed negatively in Dragon Ball, the creators are made aware by us of that. And if they respond with the same negative views, then we could say they and by extension the show are xenophobes.

Beginning a discussion by pointing fingers and wanting compensation, isn't the best start and usually doesn't further progress.

[sintzu]

Sintzu, you appear to have bought into a lot of rhetoric painting homosexulity as both deviant and teachable.

If someone wants to live that way then fine, I have no problem with that but schools and the media shouldn't be telling kids that it's normal.

[Kamiccolo9]

Define "doesn't put up with it," because I'm quite sure you have no idea what you're talking about, especially since you seem to be afraid of the big, scary gays corrupting our youth, or some shit like that.

Comparing an LGBT lifestyle to doing drugs. Seriously, man?

What I'm talking about is that only a small number of countries act like it's normal and encourage it.

They're both bad habits that shouldn't be looked at as normal.

And a fair amount of the countries that you are holding as bastions of rational behavior also behead women who talk back to their husbands.

I wouldn't suggest using the Middle East, central Africa, and the eastern mainland of Asia as shining exemplars of human rights.

[sintzu]

And a fair amount of the countries that you are holding as bastions of rational behavior also behead women who talk back to their husbands.

I wouldn't suggest using the Middle East, central Africa, and the eastern mainland of Asia as shining exemplars of human rights.

What goes on there is wrong but I'm not looking at them, I'm looking at countries like Russia and Japan.

You can be an LGBT there but you're not going to find a school that teaches it to kids as normal behavior or their media telling kids that it's normal.

[Kamiccolo9]

And a fair amount of the countries that you are holding as bastions of rational behavior also behead women who talk back to their husbands.

I wouldn't suggest using the Middle East, central Africa, and the eastern mainland of Asia as shining exemplars of human rights.

What goes on there is wrong but I'm not using them, I'm using countries like Russia and Japan.

You can be an LGBT there but you're not going to find a school that teaches it to kids as normal behavior or their media telling kids that it's normal.

You're using RUSSIA as an example?!?!

[sintzu]

You're using RUSSIA as an example?!?!

Maybe not the best example but you get what I'm talking about.

[Soppa Saia People]

They're both bad habits that shouldn't be looked at as normal.

Spoiler:

2016 ladies and gentleman! We STILL have people saying being gay is bad.

[VegettoEX]

If the show was for adults then I wouldn't care but it's for kids and kids shouldn't be exposed to that kind of thing.

This kind of thinking is insane to me and I question where you're coming from with it.

If it's OK to infer that Bulma and Vegeta had bastard children (out of wedlock! they must have had sex! children! think of them!), I don't see what the problem is with inferring that hey maybe two male characters or two females characters are in a relationship and oh it's not a big deal that's just how they are (I mean, Sailormoon did it just fine). I'm not saying, "Hey, show a sex scene" (yeah, recent Kenshin OVA, that's what we all thought Kenshin really needed!).

If you're going to press your seemingly-fundamentalist-religious viewpoints on the franchise, please be consistent about it.

Then again, I'm asking for hey maybe showcase a nuanced view on things, so maybe don't be 100% only black-and-white consistent about it...? I dunno.

[Gaffer Tape]

If the show was for adults then I wouldn't care but it's for kids and kids shouldn't be exposed to that kind of thing.

Well, first off, there are so many "things" represented in the LGBT spectrum that you'd probably have to be more specific as to which you're so quick to condemn. But it does make me wonder something. Are you against the characters of Blue and Otokosuki appearing in the series at all? And if so, does that mean you're fine with homosexual characters in children's works as long as they are behaving in stereotypical or villainous ways? And how does that same mindset apply to the violence and sexual content that's already in the series? Where is your line exactly?

(And, wow. I can't believe this is the second "But what about the childrens?!" debate about homosexuality I've had today!)

[Cipher]

I don't think it's fair to say Dragon Ball is all those things. It has moments that can be considered racist, sexist and homophobic. They seem to originate from a combination of ignorance and cultural influences, doesn't make it right, but we should take the context into account.
From what I remember there isn't any glorification of the negative acts, Dragon Ball didn't applaud Roshi or Oolong groping Bulma, for example. They are single out as perverts and creeps.

I know I'm at risk of dominating this thread, but I really do want to discuss these things and it took a long time for some of this to finally "click" with me -- only ever doing so thanks to the words of some very patient people -- so I'd like to at least offer something similar if I can:

I totally agree that Dragon Ball as a series is none of the above; definitely not ever in a malicious way -- though it sometimes thoughtlessly reflects the attitudes of its time with moments that are ... unhelpful, at best.

I do want to point out that making sure Kame-Sennin and co. get their comeuppance doesn't diminish the ... harmfulness? ... of the joke though. Playing groping and peeping up for humor portrays them as harmless gags so long as the old man gets slapped afterward. And while we can all tell fantasy from fiction and I doubt it led to much mirrored behavior among kids in Japan who grew up with this trope, it still very much plays into an air of "Oh, you crazy, dirty old man! What're you gonna do?" when it's actually just super not-okay and Japan did indeed have a big problem with molestation and is generally still a very sexist culture compared to peer nations.

When you make something a joke, you trivialize the experience. Dragon Ball's not guilty of establishing that attitude; it just didn't do anything to stop itself from furthering it. Today, those are the the bits in both Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump that make me more uncomfortable than anything else.

EDIT--

We're not going to change Sintzu's stance on gay rights in this thread. I'd just sincerely encourage him to seek out pieces written by and for gay audiences, etc. -- anything you can to give you a more human portrayal than what you're likely to get in most media. I'll also point out that using global acceptance of any civil rights movement is usually a bad call--history has a liberal bias and all civil rights movements were at some point resisted. Even among the examples listed--Japan and Russia--there are strong pushes for equality that are met by governmental resistance. The former is finally starting to make headway, and the latter is a known dictatorship that silences political opponents.

[Kamiccolo9]

You're using RUSSIA as an example?!?!

Maybe not the best example but you get what I'm talking about.

I really don't.

You're using countries that have a loooooong history of abhorrent behavior to people outside "the norm" as an reason for considering a segment of the population as "dangerous."

Not only is it stupid, but that kind of thought is way more "dangerous" than anything a big scary gay guy on TV would do.

[sintzu]

If you're going to press your seemingly-fundamentalist-religious viewpoints on the franchise.

I just said I don't care how people chose to live so I'm clearly not a religions fundamentalist, I just think LGBTs shouldn't be in a kids product.

[Kamiccolo9]

If you're going to press your seemingly-fundamentalist-religious viewpoints on the franchise.

I just said I don't care how people chose to live so I'm clearly not a religions fundamentalist, I just think LGBTs shouldn't be in a kids product.

Because seeing gay people is equivalent to doing drugs. Yes, you've made that very clear.

[VegettoEX]

I just said I don't care how people chose to live so I'm clearly not a religions fundamentalist, I just think LGBTs shouldn't be in a kids product.

You ignored my comparison to out-of-wedlock children. How do you explain that? Should that not be in a children's cartoon? Because that's a part of life, just like being LGBT is. It just is. State of being. It can be there or not be there. If it is, oh well / so what / great / neat.

Again, not advocating BDSM here in a little boys' show.

And has already been pointed out, this stuff is already in the show via characters like Otosuki and Blue. That's the question: are they viable characters, reflective of reality or just of the time, and what can we learn from it in spite of / because of / regardless of that? All I've learned from your responses is "nope", which... I guess...?... is an answer...?

[gokaiblue]

I really don't think we can accurately assessment the social "problems" of Dragon Ball, seeing as for most of us there's not only the time barrier to break but also the culture barrier. This isn't just analyzing Looney Tunes where it's American culture in the 30s, 40s, and 50s but Japanese culture in the 80's and 90s.

Besides, within the Dragon Ball universe, it appears like there's equality for all anyways (they even gave a dog as their leader. If that's not accepting, then I don't know what is).

[Cipher]

I really don't think we can accurately assessment the social "problems" of Dragon Ball, seeing as for most of us there's not only the time barrier to break but also the culture barrier. This isn't just analyzing Looney Tunes where it's American culture in the 30s, 40s, and 50s but Japanese culture in the 80's and 90s.

We can establish our cultural response, though. In addition, the things pointed out in these discussions aren't culturally specific so much as they're broad rights-and-representation issues. They're not really politically nuanced.

That doesn't mean anyone's attacking the author--we get why we're there, because of the time and culture. And sure; they're pretty tame compared to anything you'd find in Looney Toons, which could sometimes be fairly malicious. But, you know, they're still there.

Besides, within the Dragon Ball universe, it appears like there's equality for all anyways (they even gave a dog as their leader. If that's not accepting, then I don't know what is).

This argument crops up a lot, but it's neither here nor there when it comes to how it portrays real-world social dynamics?

No one thinks Toriyama is a bigot of any kind. I think he must have a fairly harmonious view of the world. That does not mean he gracefully handled racial or sexual issues in his manga--he definitely indulged in some of the more harmful views of his time, albeit through ignorant reflection rather than malice.

Even then, in certain regards, he's better than many of his peers. But we're on a Dragon Ball forum. so discuss and dissect Dragon Ball we will.