Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Tue May 10, 2016 2:51 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:No way Gohan and Piccolo have weakened to Namek saga levels. That makes less sense than ridiculous gains people dislike.

Base Gohan being stronger than Piccolo just shows he differs from BoG Goku, who's weaker than Freeza.

With the way the kids reacted to Tagoma's Chi, I'm fine with with him being around some form of Majin Boo.
Valid points but I can play in the same game. Tagoma neing noted to be only above ginyuu force even just before power up would make him 1% or a nit below but even then gap to first form frieeza and ginyuu was 4 times which means tagoma 100% wouldnt be above four form frieeza and base gohan and picoolo having trouble with tagoma put him at the best ssj goku at namek level.

Ssj gotenks would also got weaker but noone commented as there was small time frame. Also they expect getting weaker in time of peace. This way ssj gotenls would even below bog ss3 goku so he would be even thrilled about ss2 opponent.

Picoolo and gohan getting much weaker was written in plot to see how much you can loose from no training at all. It just comes from narrative point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Pantalones » Tue May 10, 2016 3:17 am

Picoolo and gohan getting much weaker was written in plot to see how much you can loose from no training at all. It just comes from narrative point.
Who ever said that Piccolo was doing "no training at all?" For Gohan getting weaker makes sense, it's a recurring thing for him: gets a big power boost and then slacks off to focus on other things which results in him losing his big power boost or being unable to fully access it (same thing happened after Cell)... but Piccolo has been repeatedly stated to be the type who trains all the time.

There is no reason for Piccolo to have gotten weaker.
1. Was kid Goku pushing the giant boulder a gag? Because by the Buu arc a far stronger Goku can just lift 40 tonnes.
The 40 tons was too much for Goku to continue flying (using Bukujutsu which eats up a small amount of ki, to the point where Dragonball/beginning-of-Z characters didn't use it for extended travel; so more stressful than just standing still or even walking/running) while having it strapped to his limbs. Being unable to maintain ki-powered flight while having that amount of weight strapped to various parts of his body is not the same as him being completely unable to lift anything more than that amount of weight.

Also, lifting and pushing are not the same thing. I can push a car, but I certainly can't lift one!

(And on top of that, yeah, most things in Dragonball -- especially early Dragonball -- are gag-ish to one extent or another.)
3. Was Roshi destroying the moon a gag? Because in the more serious Piccolo Daimao arc a supposedly stronger Piccolo destroyed a city and remarked that in similar fashion he could destroy the world as if that was his best feat (that is still much smaller feat than you need to destroy the moon).
That was Roshi in a powered-up buff form, using an attack that we know amplifies one's power beyond its ordinary level. Piccolo was sent away at a very young age and probably never had any serious ki training (him even knowing how to do specialized blasts and such, or blasts at all, is probably just due to Namekian warriors being naturally better at that sort of thing -- like how all but the wimpiest of Freeza's goons can all fly and use at least a basic ki blast, even if they're pretty much brute-force fighters with no ki skills otherwise), so it's unlikely his attack boosted his power to anywhere near the same extent as a Kamehameha. If anything, it seems like it's probably the same amount of power as his "base" strength, just spread over a larger area.

So yes, Roshi's Kamehameha that blew up the moon was probably more powerful than Piccolo Daimao's blast. No gags. It'd never work in a fight against him of course -- it takes a good bit of build-up beforehand and Daimao would just dodge it and kill Roshi (Goku's Instant Transmission+Kamehameha combo would've come in really handy for Roshi here!) -- but still.
4. Is Goku invulnerable to bullets like we saw in chapter 1 when he got shot in the head by Bulma? Because a far more powerful and tougher Goku was in danger of getting killed by General Blue's gun.
[/quote]

Not all guns are the same. "Immune to bullets" is not a thing; Goku's not "immune to bullets," he's just really damn tough compared to an ordinary human so a gunshot that would be potentially deadly for somebody like Farmer With Shotgun was only "oww!"-worthy for Goku. There are low-caliber rounds that even an ordinary human can survive a shot to the head from (depending on various factors; I know there's definitely been situations where a .22 or .25 just deflects off somebody's skull leaving them relatively unharmed because the angle was just right), so a super-strong alien kid shrugging off something a little more dangerous (like a 9mm or .45) isn't too far out there.

General Blue threatened Goku with a shotgun. A shotgun loaded with solid slugs (rather than a cartridge full of smaller pellets) is what police use to break car engine blocks. That's a huge difference from Bulma's standard handgun, and capable of doing much more damage, especially at super close range. And Blue had the thing held within inches of Goku's head, which is just about as close-range as you can get!

Plus, Goku was being restrained by Blue's psychic paralysis technique at the time. He's basically being forced into an "off guard" state, and we all know what that does to somebody's defenses in Dragonball/Z/Super. He probably could've survived the shotgun without much trouble under normal circumstances.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue May 10, 2016 4:40 am

ssbgoku wrote:Valid points but I can play in the same game. Tagoma neing noted to be only above ginyuu force even just before power up would make him 1% or a nit below but even then gap to first form frieeza and ginyuu was 4 times which means tagoma 100% wouldnt be above four form frieeza and base gohan and picoolo having trouble with tagoma put him at the best ssj goku at namek level.
I just think Sorbet wanted to compare Tagoma to Freeza's most powerful squadron from way back to show how far he's come. I mean, the guy was originally described as someone as strong as Zarbon and Dodoria, so the comparison would at least give a basic understanding of how far he's come. It just seems odd imaging Sorbet saying "You're stronger than Lord Freeza was on Namek" because it'd just be out of place. He probably wouldn't want to compare Tagoma to Freeza out of respect, anyway.

Gohan described Tagoma as "hiding power on-par with his best", which tells me he believes Tagoma is about as strong as his (current hypothetical) Ultimate form. It can't be about Base because that level of power was useless against suppressed Tagoma.
Ssj gotenks would also got weaker but noone commented as there was small time frame. Also they expect getting weaker in time of peace. This way ssj gotenls would even below bog ss3 goku so he would be even thrilled about ss2 opponent.
Maybe, but I don't think they'd get that weak considering they're still really young. Gohan got weaker after the Cell Games, though his lack of rage played a huge factor in that. Gohan thought he was the only one who could stop Beers from beating on Mr. Boo before turning Ultimate and getting knocked out. I thought he dropped that much in six months. It'd make more sense if he got that much weaker from an instance like the Cell-Boo era, but from BoG-RoF in six months? That's a bit...much. Super hasn't explained many things well, so stuff like that can actually be legit.
Picoolo and gohan getting much weaker was written in plot to see how much you can loose from no training at all. It just comes from narrative point.
Getting weaker is one thing, but getting bitch-slapped by a nerf dagger is on another level. If Gohan and Piccolo are that after six months, then they either ate some shitty food, Piccolo mysteriously lost the Nail and Kami fusion simultaneously, or Gohan's Ultimate/Super Saiyan forms had some sort of conflict. Why this would happen when he could freely turn Ultimate/Super Saiyan six months ago, I have no idea.

It's impossible to prove you wrong because all of this is our personal opinions with no one being right or wrong on the matter. With Super and the way so many things are just unexplained, you gotta go along with what makes the most sense to you.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Tue May 10, 2016 5:32 am

I still go by scouter level = 1/530,000 of first form freeza, and tagoma is around 100,000 on the "current" scouter scale. That means perfect cell could be about 5x weaker than revived freeza. So, this gives us an idea of the power of revived freeza.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Speedster » Tue May 10, 2016 8:28 am

Pantalones wrote:The 40 tons was too much for Goku to continue flying (using Bukujutsu which eats up a small amount of ki, to the point where Dragonball/beginning-of-Z characters didn't use it for extended travel; so more stressful than just standing still or even walking/running) while having it strapped to his limbs. Being unable to maintain ki-powered flight while having that amount of weight strapped to various parts of his body is not the same as him being completely unable to lift anything more than that amount of weight.
Pantalones wrote:Also, lifting and pushing are not the same thing. I can push a car, but I certainly can't lift one!
1. Your car example is incorrect as the car has wheels which under ideal conditions give you zero friction and under non-ideal conditions small friction. If you want to use the car-pushing example in equivalent terms it has to be with the handbrake up. I doubt you can push a car with the handbrake up…Additionally Goku was pushing against soil resistance.

2. We did anyway see Goku press lifting a car at the start of Dragonball and even throwing it a distance of 2-3 metres away. So Goku was capable of press-lifting 1200kg at the start.

3. During his training with Roshi Goku got at the very least 50x physically stronger as the volume of the second boulder he pushed after his training was at least 50x bigger in volume than the first one he pushed. You can measure these things – that is the absolute minimum -not only do I lowball the dimensions but I am also factoring the fact that he pushed the second boulder over a shorter distance (though at the same time the second boulder was more submerged into the ground than the first ... and then Goku did another 1 month traning with 40kg turtle shells twice as before)

4. Anyway to cut the long story short Goku by the end of his traning with Roshi could press lift (like in olympic weightlifting) at least 60 tonnes and push against soil resistance over 750 tonnes.
Pantalones wrote:That was Roshi in a powered-up buff form, using an attack that we know amplifies one's power beyond its ordinary level. Piccolo was sent away at a very young age and probably never had any serious ki training (him even knowing how to do specialized blasts and such, or blasts at all, is probably just due to Namekian warriors being naturally better at that sort of thing -- like how all but the wimpiest of Freeza's goons can all fly and use at least a basic ki blast, even if they're pretty much brute-force fighters with no ki skills otherwise), so it's unlikely his attack boosted his power to anywhere near the same extent as a Kamehameha. If anything, it seems like it's probably the same amount of power as his "base" strength, just spread over a larger area. So yes, Roshi's Kamehameha that blew up the moon was probably more powerful than Piccolo Daimao's blast.
No gags. It'd never work in a fight against him of course -- it takes a good bit of build-up beforehand and Daimao would just dodge it and kill Roshi (Goku's Instant Transmission+Kamehameha combo would've come in really handy for Roshi here!) -- but still.
1. It is clear from the narrative that Piccolo was portrayed as way much stronger than anyone from the heroes and there was absolutely nothing they could do to stop him besides the mafuba. If Roshi’s max Kamehameha could work on Piccolo then they could at least attempt to use Chaozu to restrain Piccolo and then Roshi charge his Kamehameha and blast him? Chaozu had zero problem restraining Goku in the 22nd TB. Heck in last episode he briefly restrained post Champa arc base Goku!

2. Roshi (a more powerful actually) in the 22nd TB said that the Kamehameha is a joke compared to Kikoho. Kikoho destroyed the tournament arena and was treated as huge feat.

3. What about Goku’s “Super Kamehameha” by the 23rd TB? Does it still have inferior amplification factor from Roshi’s max kamehameha? Because it was portrayed as the most powerful kamehameha ever seen by that point in the series.

Pantalones wrote:Not all guns are the same. "Immune to bullets" is not a thing; Goku's not "immune to bullets," he's just really damn tough compared to an ordinary human so a gunshot that would be potentially deadly for somebody like Farmer With Shotgun was only "oww!"-worthy for Goku. There are low-caliber rounds that even an ordinary human can survive a shot to the head from (depending on various factors; I know there's definitely been situations where a .22 or .25 just deflects off somebody's skull leaving them relatively unharmed because the angle was just right), so a super-strong alien kid shrugging off something a little more dangerous (like a 9mm or .45) isn't too far out there.

General Blue threatened Goku with a shotgun. A shotgun loaded with solid slugs (rather than a cartridge full of smaller pellets) is what police use to break car engine blocks. That's a huge difference from Bulma's standard handgun, and capable of doing much more damage, especially at super close range. And Blue had the thing held within inches of Goku's head, which is just about as close-range as you can get!

Plus, Goku was being restrained by Blue's psychic paralysis technique at the time. He's basically being forced into an "off guard" state, and we all know what that does to somebody's defenses in Dragonball/Z/Super. He probably could've survived the shotgun without much trouble under normal circumstances.
1. When Goku was shot by Bulma’s gun he was off guard too.

2. This whole “off guard” thing is inconsistent and more of a DB Super thing. In Z we saw Vegeta sneakily blasting Recoome in the face and Recoome despite being caught off guard he received no damage.

3. The gun was more powerful but so was Goku. As explained above the we are talking about a post-Roshi Goku. A 50x stronger one. So was it only increase in strength and zero increase in toughness/durability?

4. Goku could jump and with his head destroy the ceiling (concrete) and get to next floor. That puts much more pressure on his head than a bullet (and note I am using the word pressure) regardless of range.

5. Post Karin Goku deflected a missile from Black’s battle jacket. That is a huge difference from any gun including bazuka. Goku only improved about 10x by his training with Karin (a day to climb it Vs 3 hours round journey).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue May 10, 2016 9:50 am

Bullza wrote:Then there's have been no need for the slow starter line. Frost beat on Goku for a while before he casually got back up, dusted himself off and said he was a slow starter. He clearly wasn't fighting seriously.
Even if Goku was holding back against Frost, you are suggesting that he was using less than 1% of his power.

Piccolo was weaker than the Super Saiyans last time we got a comment on his power in the Cell Games, and we didn't get any comment on his power through the next 13 years in Boo arc, JSAT, BoG, FnF, and U6 arc, other than that he is weaker than Kaioshin, Base FnF Gohan, and Final Form Frost, nor did he do any new kind of training, he just kept training by himself in Kami's temple all this time (don't forget that we arre talking about the manga continuity, so no training with Gohan here). When Goku was gathering the fighters, he was considering Boo as a stronger warrior than Piccolo, and this never seemed to change. So, assuming that Piccolo got extremely stronger than he was back in the Cell Games, he is at most at SS2 level, and even that is way too much IMO.

Base Goku post-God, even if you go by the anime, is many times stronger than SS3 Goku, who is many times stronger than Piccolo. Vegeta had to transform against an even more tired Frost than the one Piccolo started fighting, which either means that Frost was stronger than base Vegeta, or that base Vegeta was stronger, but not strong enough to one-shot him. Either way, this brings Piccolo close to them, which shouldn't be possible nor would it make any sense. Unless if Goku & Vegeta didn't have any SSG power in their base & SS forms, which the Super manga doesn't have any indication so far to begin with.
The Battle of Gods movie showed Base Goku to be as strong as 80% SSJG. It may not necessarily be the case in the RoF movie or the manga though.
No, he was shown to be stronger than 80% SSG. Goku had powered up to 100% inside the cave, and kept fighting in his base as good as he did in his 100% SSG, then later Beerus said that his power didn't decrease significantly, and a 20% decrease is a significant decrease. The FnF manga, which was supervised by Toriyama like the Super manga, portrayed base Goku on SSG level, and there was no mention of decrease anywhere in BoG, so why would base FnF movie Goku be any different?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Tue May 10, 2016 2:55 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
ssbgoku wrote:Valid points but I can play in the same game. Tagoma neing noted to be only above ginyuu force even just before power up would make him 1% or a nit below but even then gap to first form frieeza and ginyuu was 4 times which means tagoma 100% wouldnt be above four form frieeza and base gohan and picoolo having trouble with tagoma put him at the best ssj goku at namek level.
I just think Sorbet wanted to compare Tagoma to Freeza's most powerful squadron from way back to show how far he's come. I mean, the guy was originally described as someone as strong as Zarbon and Dodoria, so the comparison would at least give a basic understanding of how far he's come. It just seems odd imaging Sorbet saying "You're stronger than Lord Freeza was on Namek" because it'd just be out of place. He probably wouldn't want to compare Tagoma to Freeza out of respect, anyway.

Gohan described Tagoma as "hiding power on-par with his best", which tells me he believes Tagoma is about as strong as his (current hypothetical) Ultimate form. It can't be about Base because that level of power was useless against suppressed Tagoma.
Ssj gotenks would also got weaker but noone commented as there was small time frame. Also they expect getting weaker in time of peace. This way ssj gotenls would even below bog ss3 goku so he would be even thrilled about ss2 opponent.
Maybe, but I don't think they'd get that weak considering they're still really young. Gohan got weaker after the Cell Games, though his lack of rage played a huge factor in that. Gohan thought he was the only one who could stop Beers from beating on Mr. Boo before turning Ultimate and getting knocked out. I thought he dropped that much in six months. It'd make more sense if he got that much weaker from an instance like the Cell-Boo era, but from BoG-RoF in six months? That's a bit...much. Super hasn't explained many things well, so stuff like that can actually be legit.
Picoolo and gohan getting much weaker was written in plot to see how much you can loose from no training at all. It just comes from narrative point.
Getting weaker is one thing, but getting bitch-slapped by a nerf dagger is on another level. If Gohan and Piccolo are that after six months, then they either ate some shitty food, Piccolo mysteriously lost the Nail and Kami fusion simultaneously, or Gohan's Ultimate/Super Saiyan forms had some sort of conflict. Why this would happen when he could freely turn Ultimate/Super Saiyan six months ago, I have no idea.

It's impossible to prove you wrong because all of this is our personal opinions with no one being right or wrong on the matter. With Super and the way so many things are just unexplained, you gotta go along with what makes the most sense to you.
I don't see anything weird about Sorbet comparing Tagoma to Frieeza's power back at Namek, it would be far from insult as frieeza was already shamed by defeat from super saiyan goku from Namek arc. Actually it would be praise for Tagoma to get such strong and freeza would most likely brush it off or just mention it was past.

Well even if you want to go that route about gohan and tagoma then ssj gohan is at the mest his mssj cell arc, and even I doubt about it. However Master Roshi reffered to rage vegeta to only suprass ssj3 goku who was used as clearly absolute top of power. Sadly I can see them getting much weaker as rof hints it while theme of training and it's importance is shown and how far you can fall if you stop training at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Wed May 11, 2016 3:30 am

apex_pretador wrote:
Chiki wrote:
Piccolo is known as a guy who had random big gains.He got like 10x to 100x stronger in only 6 days in Freeza Arc.So Piccolo getting that strong in 8 months shouldn't be that far-fetched.Plus,we don't know if Freeza's boost from his forms is the same as before,at the very least,i'd put it a 100x boost to his first form.
Yes it is far-fetched, because if you're right then Piccolo could have soloed Super Buu if he went into the Room of Spirit and Time for a year. Not happening.
super buu won't allow it to happen, and no gohan to train with here.

Also, potential varies with time.
How come his power with 5 years training didn't even double (BoZ) and in 11 months, he was able to power-up many times over?

How come gohan gets not even noticeable boost after 3 year piccolo-goku-gohan training and in 10 months he gets a boost literally 1000x over?
Do you think Piccolo only gets these huge boosts when he trains with others?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu May 12, 2016 12:40 am

BWri wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:
Chiki wrote:
Yes it is far-fetched, because if you're right then Piccolo could have soloed Super Buu if he went into the Room of Spirit and Time for a year. Not happening.
super buu won't allow it to happen, and no gohan to train with here.

Also, potential varies with time.
How come his power with 5 years training didn't even double (BoZ) and in 11 months, he was able to power-up many times over?

How come gohan gets not even noticeable boost after 3 year piccolo-goku-gohan training and in 10 months he gets a boost literally 1000x over?
Do you think Piccolo only gets these huge boosts when he trains with others?
The entire line of defense of the "Piccolo is stronger than you think" argument is unsteady, as well.
Piccolo had no one who had forced him not to train during the Buu Arc, and he could've trained with Gotenks for that matter if he had needed a good partner.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Thu May 12, 2016 10:59 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote: The entire line of defense of the "Piccolo is stronger than you think" argument is unsteady, as well.
Piccolo had no one who had forced him not to train during the Buu Arc, and he could've trained with Gotenks for that matter if he had needed a good partner.
Too bad potential varies with time. Piccolo's potential in buu arc is not the same as his potential in RoF arc. See how piccolo surpassed raditz in 6 months while he couldn't get to a level even close to him in 5 years of training, when he wanted to kill goku.
Also, I'm not even putting piccolo above SS3 goku (buu arc) who is the weakest SS3 in series (canon & non-canon material considered).
BWri wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:
super buu won't allow it to happen, and no gohan to train with here.

Also, potential varies with time.
How come his power with 5 years training didn't even double (BoZ) and in 11 months, he was able to power-up many times over?

How come gohan gets not even noticeable boost after 3 year piccolo-goku-gohan training and in 10 months he gets a boost literally 1000x over?
Do you think Piccolo only gets these huge boosts when he trains with others?
Good point.
However, one thing worth noting is that piccolo's "huge" gains haven't been observed since ROSAT training.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu May 12, 2016 11:12 pm

No, he was shown to be stronger than 80% SSG. Goku had powered up to 100% inside the cave, and kept fighting in his base as good as he did in his 100% SSG, then later Beerus said that his power didn't decrease significantly, and a 20% decrease is a significant decrease.
I'll see if I can reply to the first point later because I don't have time.

SSJG Goku said he'd been fighting at about 80%. Beerus rushed him and then Goku continued fighting him, his time limit ran out, he reverted to Base and continued to fight him.

As the cave closed in around him he got angry and powered up, he turned Super Saiyan and put up a better fight against Beerus from that point.

So it should be something like

Base = 80% of SSJG
SSJ = 100% of SSJG

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 13, 2016 5:28 am

Bullza wrote:
No, he was shown to be stronger than 80% SSG. Goku had powered up to 100% inside the cave, and kept fighting in his base as good as he did in his 100% SSG, then later Beerus said that his power didn't decrease significantly, and a 20% decrease is a significant decrease.
I'll see if I can reply to the first point later because I don't have time.

SSJG Goku said he'd been fighting at about 80%. Beerus rushed him and then Goku continued fighting him, his time limit ran out, he reverted to Base and continued to fight him.

As the cave closed in around him he got angry and powered up, he turned Super Saiyan and put up a better fight against Beerus from that point.

So it should be something like

Base = 80% of SSJG
SSJ = 100% of SSJG
Watch the fight again. Goku said he was using 80% of his power during their fight before entering the cave. After they resumed fighting, Beerus said he would raise his speed & asked Goku if he was still holding back, and Goku responded that this time he is not holding back, and then SSG ended. After that, Goku kept fighting as well as he did before SSG ended, and then got angry & accidentally turned into a SS, and fought even better due to his emotions. Then we learn that Goku didn't notice that he changed any forms, and that his power didn't decrease much after SSG ended.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Fri May 13, 2016 7:52 pm

For those of you who actually subscribe to the theory of Goku having two bases, aren't you ranting about Piccolo's insane power boost because said milestone lacks explanation and/or proof?

And... where was it ever stated that Goku has two base forms?

Dragon Ball isn't designed to confuse the heck out of people with subtle hints and clues; bottom line is, an increase that lacks explanation and/or official recognition is far more likely of a scenario than the existence of some never before mentioned on and off switch (if I could even call it that), as the show has a track record of nonchalantly powering up characters.

Now that we got that out of the way, I don't find it far-fetched at all for someone like Frost to be in some Buu-busting-tier. Universe 6 could be just be ridden with a stronger roster of warriors (excluding Goku / Vegeta). Frost also seems to be far more combat-involved than Frieza; with how quickly their kind advances and the years of combat that he likely has under his belt, it doesn't surprise me that his assault form would outclass any non-golden incarnation of Frieza, who by the events of RoF should all be notably stronger than any form of Majin Buu. This also wouldn't downplay Frieza's prodigy status, as it likely took Frost a long time to reach his current caliber, whereas the former obtained an SSB-busting transformation by merely bullying a significantly weaker sparring partner.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri May 13, 2016 8:51 pm

Yeah, the two Base theory seems way too convoluted. I look at like this: Goku is either fighting seriously in Base or he's not. It seems like some people just don't like believing they've gotten ridiculously powerful by Super.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Khin » Fri May 13, 2016 8:54 pm

I really have no problem putting the likes of Frost stronger than any forms of Buu. However, the lack of explanations and statements is what bugs me. No one made a comment on how Piccolo got stronger. However, no one made a comment or even wonder how Base Goku is weaker than when he fought Freeza either. So at the lowest, i have Piccolo more or less on par with Mr Buu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Fri May 13, 2016 10:22 pm

Too bad potential varies with time. Piccolo's potential in buu arc is not the same as his potential in RoF arc. See how piccolo surpassed raditz in 6 months while he couldn't get to a level even close to him in 5 years of training, when he wanted to kill goku.
Also, I'm not even putting piccolo above SS3 goku (buu arc) who is the weakest SS3 in series (canon & non-canon material considered).
Well... Potential, for starters, generally decreases for humans in the real world (the older you get, I suppose you get the general idea). Nevertheless, strictly speaking we'd be talking about a Namekian, so who knows.
In any way, you could still argue that every time Piccolo had some jump he always had some sort of new catalyst: he changed and upgraded training regime/ added in every saga, while from Buu Saga to today he simply trained like he always had. And it's not like I'm entirely against the idea that you may have "bigger potential", or rather, that you could gain more from one kind of training than another.

However, you're basically suggesting that Piccolo's potential could rise from one day to another without any proper explanation by doing the same things he always did. In short, you're just saying that "it happened" without adding anything else.
Piccolo from DB to Saiyan saga = trains with Kaio, Namek = he gets Nail, Androids = he trains with his new body, Cell = he gets Kami, Cell Games = he trains with his new body and he's weaker than Cell. From Cell Games to Buu Saga = keeps doing the same training like with the same old body and he is still weaker than Cell. So, most likely, the story tentatively implied that Piccolo could get only marginally stronger by training or that in his current state he hit his plateau either in the ROSAT or some time later, still being weaker than Buu Arc Gohan/ Cell.

So, if as far as we know Piccolo trained as it always did, you either have to argue that some special training/ plot device x we had no chance to see happened on screen (which is a Devil's Proof, basically) or argue that Piccolo's "potential", as you intend it, could rise or lower from one day to another without a plot device, which sounds again like a non-explanation. It'd be different if we had been told that... I dunno, the older a Namekian gets the better they get.
For those of you who actually subscribe to the theory of Goku having two bases, aren't you ranting about Piccolo's insane power boost because said milestone lacks explanation and/or proof?
Well, while I'm more in line with the Goku is serious or not serious (at least to me, though, the "two bases idea" is simply Goku using as much ki as he wants to do this or that), there is one crucial difference: the Piccolo is uber strong theory creates either plotholes or bad writing that can go from "really bad" to "somewhat bad".

The other one is contrived and counter-intuitive, but it helps evidently to put some minds with Super's writing. It would be still bad writing to quite some people, most likely ("huge lack of exposition", namely). However, and that's the thing to stress, it wouldn't be a plothole in the sense that it would not create contradictions.

As far as we know because Piccolo couldn't have killed Kid Buu in the anime by training in the ROSAT either by himself or with Gotenks because he didn't do it, and it's hard to think that things have changed with the current outline of the plot (and without out-of-universe explanations). So if Piccolo suddenly became stronger than Kid Buu, it would arguably be a contradiction with the material the story presented long time readers/viewers of DB.

That is not counting two things:

A. The way Toriyama presented the characters (the "always a third weel" Piccolo" and the "crazy strong" Buu).
B. The possibility of SS Gohan being ROF is stronger than SS3 Goku, of course, and that, by training with Gohan, Piccolo could have become vastly stronger himself.
I do think that too sounds pretty hard to believe, gut feelings aside; Gohan expressly says that he is still le-learning the basics right before the tourney takes place. Plus, in the anime, Goku is supposed to be the strongest in the beginning of Super. So Gohan would have had to surpass Goku in-between episode 2 and 30-something and then get weaker (by training? Not training? It looks like he never trains), and yet strong enough for Piccolo to surpass/rise to SS3 Goku's power too.

Sure enough, Piccolo could be stronger than anyone in the Buu Saga in Toriyama's mind. It wouldn't change that it would be objectively inconsistent with what the story showed us so far, or bad writing in the sense that it lacks a proper explanation that justifies the scenario we have been shown in the last twenty years.
That's all there is to it, and that's why most people here are not particularly keen on accepting the idea.
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Fri May 13, 2016 11:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri May 13, 2016 10:56 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if AT has Piccolo superior to Super Vegito....

I think the idea of a beam rifle being able to nearly kill Goku is stupid as well. Off-guarded attacks were shown to be somewhat effective in Z, but nothing even close to that. There were quite a few times when they were shown to be useless as well. Just imagine Freeza relaxing in his flying chair daydreaming about the next planet he's going to obtain, and a crappy footsoldier happens to see him. By Super's logic, one of those crappy scouts that can't even create their own Chi would be able to one-shot Freeza and become the new leader just like that. I find that to be far more stupid than giant power boosts.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Fri May 13, 2016 11:01 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if AT has Piccolo superior to Super Vegito....

I think the idea of a beam rifle being able to nearly kill Goku is stupid as well. Off-guarded attacks were shown to be somewhat effective in Z, but nothing even close to that. There were quite a few times when they were shown to be useless as well. Just imagine Freeza relaxing in his flying chair daydreaming about the next planet he's going to obtain, and a crappy footsoldier happens to see him. By Super's logic, one of those crappy scouts that can't even create their own Chi would be able to one-shot Freeza and become the new leader just like that. I find that to be far more stupid than giant power boosts.
By all means. I myself wouldn't be surprised, honestly (I'm referring to the Piccolo > Super Vegito case , of course).

I wouldn't really blame anyone who thinks that Piccolo and everyone from Universe 6 is comparably weak, though: it just means they can't bring themselves to believe that from an in-universe perspective.
Mostly, the root of the problem here (or rather, the root of this very thread?) is people arguing about what's hard to believe from mostly an author's perspective against what's hard to believe from a mostly narrative aspect.

Or the fans taking things "too seriously", if you prefer. Oh, well, Since that is a part of Dragon Ball's very fortune, I guess Toriyama himself would be quite content.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Personally, I don't have any problem with Piccolo reaching a level similar to that of a SS2 in Boo Arc, because that level is not even that relevant anymore. It wouldn't be worthy a comment per si. In another hand, considering he was the last option to compose the Universe 7 team, he still seems weaker than Boo.

I'm not sure why that should affect the power of guys like Goku or Vegeta, though. They decide to take on Frost in their Super Saiyan forms, suggesting they probably couldn't accomplish anything in their base forms, but Piccolo wasn't fighting Frost directly either. He came up with some kind of plan, much like Batman.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 14, 2016 3:18 am

supercat wrote:For those of you who actually subscribe to the theory of Goku having two bases, aren't you ranting about Piccolo's insane power boost because said milestone lacks explanation and/or proof?
That, and the fact that Piccolo can't be both above SS3 level & weaker than Boo at the same time.

The manga, which has more involvement from Toriyama than the anime, currently has base/SS Goku & Vegeta on regular levels. So, assuming that the manga doesn't tie-in with the movies, Toriyama has retconned them. If it does tie-in with the movies, we will later see that there are 2 base forms.

Personally, since in the manga the BoG arc was rushed & the FnF arc was skipped and was only referenced, I believe that the "canonical" events before the Champa arc are the ones shown in the movies, and in the movies, there is no doubt that base Goku & Vegeta are on SSG level, while in the manga up until now, there is no doubt that base/SS Goku & Vegeta are nowhere near SSG. So, here is what I believe:

After Goku (and later Vegeta) absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, his power decreased insignificantly in his base form, and transforming into a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God didn't make him much stronger. After training with Whis, his Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Blue, replacing the golden form (this is why Goku & Vegeta only turned into SSB in FnF & in Champa arc before RoSaT). After training inside the RoSaT, they learned to turn off the SSG power (or maybe they had this ability all along, but never displayed it), so when they turn into SS without using the SSG power, their hair turn gold again. I believe that this hasn't been explained yet in the manga because there hasn't been any reason to yet, all the opponents until now (Botamo, Frost, Magetta) were far below the level of gods.

I enjoy the Super anime a lot, but I can't take it seriously with Toei writing it, just like I can't take seriously the fillers, movies, and GT. When it comes to battle powers, the anime makes no sense.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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