Anyone interested in discussing the social issues of DB?

[Polyphase Avatron]

No. I think it's unequivocally wrong, while also being a reflection of the time.

I don't give the Ancient Egyptians a pass for conscripting Jewish labor because it was just Egyptians doing as Egyptions do.

I'm pretty sure that never actually happened though. At least not on any significant scale.

[gogeta97]

I find it strange that the response of so many is "I don't think we should be talking about that."

Interesting that so many who rail against censorship of a cartoon get uncomfortable when this kind of conversation comes up.

Because it's going much beyond what is actually there. It's like seeing an humorist bringing up a stereotype of a person of another country on a joke and starting a serious debate about the humorist being against foreigners or not in response. If I saw that type of response over that situation, I also would get pretty uncomfortable over the lack of sense of humor and excess of PC (political correctness).

I also don't see what censorship has to do with it. Those who oppose censorship usually do so because they want the original preserved as a matter of principle and because they aren't willing to let PC interfere with that principle. Meanwhile, those who don't see the point in debating about these issues regarding Dragon Ball usually don't see the point in that because such a topic is something that goes way beyond what is actually there in Dragon Ball that at most uses stereotypes and the notion of those ideas for lighthearted humor, and they also aren't willing to let PC interfere with that. If anything, they are coherent because both aren't willing to let PC interfere too much in these matters.

There are jokes that go beyond the boundaries of good taste. If a comedian was making jokes about how stupid black people are, or how greedy Jews are, would you complain about people objecting to it by calling them "too PC"?

As for censorship, no one is advocating destroying all of the original manga/anime and replacing it with some whitewashed version. Just addressing the stereotypes and such that exist in it.

The thing is, comedy and what is and isn't "funny" is totally subjective. I've heard "stupid black people" and "greedy Jew" jokes before but a lot of them have been made by black and Jewish people themselves. Outright making those statements isn't funny, but it's completely possible to make genuinely funny jokes where those are the punchline. There are people of all backgrounds that find politically incorrect humor and that's OK as long as the joke is recognized as over-exaggerated and offensive jokes, and that being said, I truly believe that NOTHING is sacred when it comes to comedy.


Also not to be that guy but don't you think it's a bit much to make 5 posts in a row?

[voltlunok]

Android 18 was a central and serious antagonist. Videl is a (relatively) great fighter and the only human in Dragonball besides the Tournament Announcer to see through the Z fighters (albiet very thin) ruse.

Dragon Ball is a series market to young boys in Japan. The male characters are always going to have a bigger role than the female characters. Look at a series like Kamen Rider and Super Sentai, it's the same too. The male characters have a bigger role than the female ones because the show is made for younger boys.

Eh, Super Sentai is pretty good about representing women, every team has female members and they can all fight, and while some of them could be said to be just tokenism a lot of them are just as important as the guys. In Shinkenger the red team leader even was just holding the place for a female who took over as team leader partway through.

While the thing with Shinkenger is true, it should be noted that Takeru does eventually take his title as leader back and Kaoru (The female ShinkenRed) backseats to take a more supportive role, though a very vital one as she creates the disc needed to kill the final boss.

As for the argument "DB is a boys show and the guys will always get more screentime" I don't think that can entirely work nowadays. Especially in a world where we have entertainment/toy companies like Hasbro talking about demolishing the walls between the boy's toys and girl's toys divisions of their company. As well as stores like Toys R US talking about getting rid of the blue and pink aisles. Yes, DB is generally made with a target audience of boys in mind, that doesn't mean that only young boys are watching. I know a good number of ladies who enjoy Dragon Ball to the same degree as many people here and I'm sure there are also plenty of female fans here among us and I think that should really show the "Its a boys show!" argument doesn't entirely work.

I honestly think the show needs at least ONE female character who doesn't get left behind, forgotten or ends up as a housewife. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a dozen female characters who can all kick Goku and Vegeta's collective asses up and down the block...but I think having at least one would do leaps and bounds for the series. I mean Vados could I guess be considered that but...she didn't really do anything and I guess falls into the "Will be forgotten." category.

Spoiler:

Anyways, I could go on and on about some things in this topic (Which is why I've sorta been avoiding it...lots of hot button topics and I'm in a state where I shouldn't be getting into heated internet debates.) but I think I'm just gonna bow out before things get heated again...

[gogeta97]

While the thing with Shinkenger is true, it should be noted that Takeru does eventually take his title as leader back and Kaoru (The female ShinkenRed) backseats to take a more supportive role, though a very vital one as she creates the disc needed to kill the final boss.

As for the argument "DB is a boys show and the guys will always get more screentime" I don't think that can entirely work nowadays. Especially in a world where we have entertainment/toy companies like Hasbro talking about demolishing the walls between the boy's toys and girl's toys divisions of their company. As well as stores like Toys R US talking about getting rid of the blue and pink aisles. Yes, DB is generally made with a target audience of boys in mind, that doesn't mean that only young boys are watching. I know a good number of ladies who enjoy Dragon Ball to the same degree as many people here and I'm sure there are also plenty of female fans here among us and I think that should really show the "Its a boys show!" argument doesn't entirely work.

I honestly think the show needs at least ONE female character who doesn't get left behind, forgotten or ends up as a housewife. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a dozen female characters who can all kick Goku and Vegeta's collective asses up and down the block...but I think having at least one would do leaps and bounds for the series. I mean Vados could I guess be considered that but...she didn't really do anything and I guess falls into the "Will be forgotten." category.

Spoiler:

Anyways, I could go on and on about some things in this topic (Which is why I've sorta been avoiding it...lots of hot button topics and I'm in a state where I shouldn't be getting into heated internet debates.) but I think I'm just gonna bow out before things get heated again...

To be fair, didn't Toriyama say he just prefers writing male characters?

[EXBadguy]

The thing is, comedy and what is and isn't "funny" is totally subjective. I've heard "stupid black people" and "greedy Jew" jokes before but a lot of them have been made by black and Jewish people themselves.

Believe it or not, even other blacks and jews(....but mostly other blacks) wanna shut other comedians of their own color/ethnicity down, like what they tried to do with Larry Wilmore when he was making jokes about the attitudes of single black mothers and then was forced to apologize and kiss the asses of black single mothers. If people can laugh at other race jokes, then there should be no problem laughing at black jokes.

Me personally, I don't care either way, and I'm black! But as I said earlier, what is it going to do to my health besides me constantly worrying about the jokes?

EDIT: I had a different example, but the one I used wasn't a comedy movie, it was more of a documentary.

[rereboy]

There are jokes that go beyond the boundaries of good taste. If a comedian was making jokes about how stupid black people are, or how greedy Jews are, would you complain about people objecting to it by calling them "too PC"?

In the case you described, with a comedian "making jokes about how stupid black people are, or how greedy Jews are", we would have to look at his intentions. Is he telling the jokes because he has an agenda? To spread discrimination and hate? If he is, he obviously deserves criticism. If he is not, then criticizing him in that manner would be going beyond what is actually there. It's often hard to actually see the intentions of a person, so differentiating the situations is not always easy or simple, but, nonetheless, it's, undoubtedly, what we should do.

Pretty much all jokes make fun of something or are at the expense of something... It's either someone falling, someone's funny expression, someone in a awkward situation, some stereotype, someone in trouble, someone getting hurt with a hammer, etc, etc. And there is no objective line where that stops being funny, it's a subjective line and all of that can be considered not funny and "beyond the boundaries of good taste" by someone, especially the one being made fun of. So what? Are we going to stop having humor just because someone might be offended for whatever reason? Because of PC? Of course not, that doesn't make any sense. Like I said, what matters is the intention. If someone makes a joke or says something purely to discriminate and spread hate, those are ill intentions and thus that person deserves to be criticized... If someone does it just because of humor, there's no ill intentions and criticizing that person is basically going beyond what is actually there, which is the case with Dragon Ball.

If we start to cater to everyone who might be offended by humor, there simply will be no humor.

As for censorship, no one is advocating destroying all of the original manga/anime and replacing it with some whitewashed version. Just addressing the stereotypes and such that exist in it.

I didn't say that anyone was advocating that... It had been implied that there was a curious relationship between being against censorship and being uncomfortable with the subject at hand. I simply put into question that implication.

[Kid Buu]

Well, as a British-Asian it would have been nice to see some South Asian characters who weren't stereotypes of poor villagers. I mean I'm not gonna boycott the series, but it sure would have been nice.

[MozillaVulpix]

I am NOT going through 7 pages of discussion, but I'm just going to put some opinions here, to add my own 2 cents.

- Bulma used as fanservice in the first arc isn't the best representation. I know why it's there, but it doesn't make me like it. At least she becomes more of a character later on, and by the Z-era it's pretty much all gone.
- General Blue's defining trait is that he's gay, and it's always portrayed in a negative light. Same with the one-note guy in the last Budokai.
- Videl vs Spopovich has some undertones that could be seen as sexist. It was probably unintentional, but...there's something wrong about having the event that triggers Videl to sit on the sidelines for good is her getting beaten up and still continuing to fight, despite everyone else telling her it's hopeless. It's one of the few times in the series where surrendering against an unbeatable opponent is portrayed as the right option.
- Pan never went Super Saiyan in GT. Why not? It could have been a way to validate her character development. It doesn't matter if wouldn't mean anything. The way GT presented it, it almost made it seem like Pan could just never go Super Saiyan. Like it was inaccessible to her. And it wasn't because her blood was too diluted - Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr did it at the end of the series. So the series ends off with me thinking the only reason she can't transform is because she's a girl.

I know it's a product of its time. Asking it to be progressive is asking a lot. That doesn't mean I have to like everything it does and did.

[Polyphase Avatron]

There are jokes that go beyond the boundaries of good taste. If a comedian was making jokes about how stupid black people are, or how greedy Jews are, would you complain about people objecting to it by calling them "too PC"?

In the case you described, with a comedian "making jokes about how stupid black people are, or how greedy Jews are", we would have to look at his intentions. Is he telling the jokes because he has an agenda? To spread discrimination and hate? If he is, he obviously deserves criticism. If he is not, then criticizing him in that manner would be going beyond what is actually there. It's often hard to actually see the intentions of a person, so differentiating the situations is not always easy or simple, but, nonetheless, it's, undoubtedly, what we should do.

Pretty much all jokes make fun of something or are at the expense of something... It's either someone falling, someone's funny expression, someone in a awkward situation, some stereotype, someone in trouble, someone getting hurt with a hammer, etc, etc. And there is no objective line where that stops being funny, it's a subjective line and all of that can be considered not funny and "beyond the boundaries of good taste" by someone, especially the one being made fun of. So what? Are we going to stop having humor just because someone might be offended for whatever reason? Because of PC? Of course not, that doesn't make any sense. Like I said, what matters is the intention. If someone makes a joke or says something purely to discriminate and spread hate, those are ill intentions and thus that person deserves to be criticized... If someone does it just because of humor, there's no ill intentions and criticizing that person is basically going beyond what is actually there, which is the case with Dragon Ball.

If we start to cater to everyone who might be offended by humor, there simply will be no humor.

As for censorship, no one is advocating destroying all of the original manga/anime and replacing it with some whitewashed version. Just addressing the stereotypes and such that exist in it.

I didn't say that anyone was advocating that... It had been implied that there was a curious relationship between being against censorship and being uncomfortable with the subject at hand. I simply put into question that implication.

You can't use the excuse that 'oh it was a joke, I didn't mean it' to get out of everything you say. Even if you're not being serious, you can still be spreading negative stereotypes and offending people who have serious issues with these topics. Would you go up to a Holocaust survivor and start joking about throwing them in the oven, then complain that they were taking it too seriously and it wasn't your intention to be hateful, they just need to lighten up?

It doesn't matter if someone is being 'ironically' racist, because they're still being racist.

[Cipher]

- Pan never went Super Saiyan in GT. Why not? It could have been a way to validate her character development. It doesn't matter if wouldn't mean anything. The way GT presented it, it almost made it seem like Pan could just never go Super Saiyan. Like it was inaccessible to her. And it wasn't because her blood was too diluted - Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr did it at the end of the series. So the series ends off with me thinking the only reason she can't transform is because she's a girl.

I know it's a product of its time. Asking it to be progressive is asking a lot. That doesn't mean I have to like everything it does and did.

This is what bothers me about Pan's lack of Super Saiyan, jumping back a page or two to when it was briefly discussed. I'm fine with her not having it as it's actually become visually tiresome by that point, and I like plenty of other things the series does with her. Her not growing up with the form a la Trunks and Goten is fine based on her being another generation down.

But then you get Goku and Vegeta Jr. -- and while it's possible Pan could have achieved Super Saiyan at some point in the timeline, it's never shown. Suddenly the only main Saiyan character to not get the form is also the only girl, and you're like: : /

I have my thoughts on why we never saw it, and it ties into -- I think a Toriyama quote at some point? someone help me out? -- that it would be hard to design a female Super Saiyan. I guess because they couldn't think of a way to spike up her long hair and still have the design work and seem "feminine," which is fucking stupid.

[rereboy]

You can't use the excuse that 'oh it was a joke, I didn't mean it' to get out of everything you say. Even if you're not being serious, you can still be spreading negative stereotypes and offending people who have serious issues with these topics. Would you go up to a Holocaust survivor and start joking about throwing them in the oven, then complain that they were taking it too seriously and it wasn't your intention to be hateful, they just need to lighten up?

It doesn't matter if someone is being 'ironically' racist, because they're still being racist.

Who said it would get you "out of everything"? In extreme cases like you pointed you, it's practically impossible to convince people that the intentions behind the jokes are completely "innocent" so nobody would get out of anything really. However, just because there are cases where it's practically impossible to convince anyone that the intentions were completely innocent, that doesn't mean that the intentions aren't what really matters. The moment we deny that and start blaming humor itself, instead of intentions, that's the moment where humor starts to get limited and prohibited, and if we follow that path it's easy to get to the point where cartoonists, humorists and regular people are jailed from telling a joke involving the president, like it happens in various countries around the world, or worse.

[gogeta97]

You can't use the excuse that 'oh it was a joke, I didn't mean it' to get out of everything you say. Even if you're not being serious, you can still be spreading negative stereotypes and offending people who have serious issues with these topics. Would you go up to a Holocaust survivor and start joking about throwing them in the oven, then complain that they were taking it too seriously and it wasn't your intention to be hateful, they just need to lighten up?

It doesn't matter if someone is being 'ironically' racist, because they're still being racist.

What the hell are you talking about? Literally everyone has made a racist joke before. Nothing is or should be off limits in comedy. If you can't tell the difference between a comedian/some friends making a joke and someone insulting a Holocaust survivor to their face then you need help.

[sintzu]

Kids should learn that it IS normal.

This way of thinking is why so many homosexual people (especially youths) get depression problems and such. This makes people feel like there something wrong with them and keep their feelings bottled up.

YOU are part of the problem.

It isn't, which is one of the reason why normal people are called straight and they're not.

If you people would stop being so politically correct then maybe they could get the help they need. but then again you're probably the same people who are telling extremely overweight people that they're healthy and shouldn't lose any weight, the same people who were telling anorexic people that they didn't need to gain weight but instead should lose more.

You can say what you want about me and other people like me but we care about them more then you ever did and ever will, all they are to you is the popular thing to talk about and the minute they aren't, you'll move on to the next social topic and leave them in the dust.

Just because they are a minority it doesn't make it ok to imply that they are abnormal, because that would encourage discrimination and hate.

If we say that smoking isn't healthy does that mean we're encouraging discrimination against smokers ? If we say that being blind is a disability does that mean we're encouraging discrimination against blind people ?

If someone wants to live that way then they can but I'm not going to say that it's normal just because it's the popular thing to say nowadays.

[rereboy]

If we say that smoking isn't healthy does that mean we're encouraging discrimination against smokers ? If we say that being blind is a disability does that mean we're encouraging discrimination against blind people ?

If someone wants to live that way then they can but I'm not going to say that it's normal just because it's the popular thing to say nowadays.

Not comparable at all. Being a sexual minority is just about sexual identity and preference.

Besides the prejudice, what is exactly the difference between a heterosexual guy only wanting or preferring red-heads, or a guy who just wants or prefers brunettes, or a guy who just wants or prefers short women, or a guy who just wants or prefers heavy women, and a guy that only wants or prefers muscular men? If you remove all social prejudice, having that preference and identity doesn't cause any more problems to that person than an heterosexual guy has for preferring or only wanting red-heads. Smoking, being blind, being overweight, and so on, cause serious problem for the person regardless of social prejudice. That person could be all alone in an island and he would still have problems for smoking, being blind, etc.

In other words, if you pay close attention to it, there's no real difference, it's all just a matter of a sexual identity and preference. Society just decided, thanks to its prejudices, that some preferences and identities, like a guy wanting red-headed women compared to a guy who doesn't distinguish between hair color, and another who prefers or only wants brunettes, don't really matter and don't pose any problems at all... But others, like a guy only wanting or preferring muscular guys pose a problem. But why does it pose a problem? What is exactly the problem that they pose compared to others? Logically and rationally, it doesn't pose any bigger problem... It all boils down to prejudice born out of tradition and religious concepts, not actual rational, logical and demonstrable problems.

The only actual semi-logical problem anyone can point out regarding sexual minorities is their ability to produce offspring, but that was pretty much in the old days. Nowadays, with how big in vitro fertilization is, even in heterosexual couples, not even that is a problem.

[VegettoEX]

sintzu, what we've learned over the course of this discussion and your continued doubling-down is that you have some deeply-ingrained hatred that you're trying to justify as "just my opinion man" with false equivalencies and gross generalizations. That's disgusting, has no place on Kanzenshuu, and we're not going to stand for it. Your hatred is not welcome here.

[TekTheNinja]

Kids should learn that it IS normal.

This way of thinking is why so many homosexual people (especially youths) get depression problems and such. This makes people feel like there something wrong with them and keep their feelings bottled up.

YOU are part of the problem.

It isn't, which is one of the reason why normal people are called straight and they're not.

If you people would stop being so politically correct then maybe they could get the help they need. but then again you're probably the same people who are telling extremely overweight people that they're healthy and shouldn't lose any weight, the same people who were telling anorexic people that they didn't need to gain weight but instead should lose more.

You can say what you want about me and other people like me but we care about them more then you ever did and ever will, all they are to you is the popular thing to talk about and the minute they aren't, you'll move on to the next social topic and leave them in the dust.

Just because they are a minority it doesn't make it ok to imply that they are abnormal, because that would encourage discrimination and hate.

If we say that smoking isn't healthy does that mean we're encouraging discrimination against smokers ? If we say that being blind is a disability does that mean we're encouraging discrimination against blind people ?

If someone wants to live that way then they can but I'm not going to say that it's normal just because it's the popular thing to say nowadays.

HUGE difference here. You're comparing being gay, which has nothing particularly "unhealthy" about it to things that you could actually DIE from, like obesity, anorexia, and smoking.

- Videl vs Spopovich has some undertones that could be seen as sexist. It was probably unintentional, but...there's something wrong about having the event that triggers Videl to sit on the sidelines for good is her getting beaten up and still continuing to fight, despite everyone else telling her it's hopeless. It's one of the few times in the series where surrendering against an unbeatable opponent is portrayed as the right option.

Yes... I remember you were in a YouTube video about that. I REALLY don't agree. Nobody says it's sexist when Frieza dominates Vegeta, or about any other beatdown of a male character. Just because Videl is female, it's no different. Also I feel like there were PLENTY of Vegeta moments where giving up was portrayed as the right option, but his pride got in the way.

- Bulma used as fanservice in the first arc isn't the best representation. I know why it's there, but it doesn't make me like it.

It's not like she's only there for eye candy. She has plenty of character right from the beginning. Besides, "fanservice" isn't the word I'd use, it's more just sexual comedy.

[VegettoEX]

Yes... I remember you were in a YouTube video about that. I REALLY don't agree. Nobody says it's sexist when Frieza dominates Vegeta, or about any other beatdown of a male character. Just because Videl is female, it's no different. Also I feel like there were PLENTY of Vegeta moments where giving up was portrayed as the right option, but his pride got in the way.

That dangerously borders on MRA analysis territory (and yes, let me acknowledge the apparent hypocrisy of shooting down one Internet acronym while using another). I think it's fair when you consider that up until that very point, Videl was written as a very strong (both physically strong and strong-willed) character. Of course she as a regular human was never going to stand a chance against someone with the Majin charm, male or female be damned. Where the storytelling falters, and what people continue to have a problem with now with Super, is that none of that strong will has returned. Even I was giving them a chance in those first couple Super episodes, and I'd like to continue to give them a chance, but we're missing a key part of Videl's character by having "strong girl gets beaten down, never again taking up the mantle of fighter!"

Incidentally, that's actually why I really like Chi-Chi's attack in DBZ Movie 1, and the Great Saiyaman 1 & II antics in DBZ Movie 13. The writers in those scenes remembered what made those characters more than a one-dimensional caricature of themselves.

And that's all I'm really asking for in terms of storytelling in Dragon Ball every so often. Don't confuse the issue and exaggerate the standpoint; I'm not necessary saying "the series will never be redeemed in my eyes until they definitively declare a woman the strongest fighter in all the multiverse!" I mean, if they do, I guess that's be pretty cool, too. I'd just like for Videl to throw a goddamn punch again .

[TekTheNinja]

Yes... I remember you were in a YouTube video about that. I REALLY don't agree. Nobody says it's sexist when Frieza dominates Vegeta, or about any other beatdown of a male character. Just because Videl is female, it's no different. Also I feel like there were PLENTY of Vegeta moments where giving up was portrayed as the right option, but his pride got in the way.

That dangerously borders on MRA analysis territory (and yes, let me acknowledge the apparent hypocrisy of shooting down one Internet acronym while using another). I think it's fair when you consider that up until that very point, Videl was written as a very strong (both physically strong and strong-willed) character. Of course she as a regular human was never going to stand a chance against someone with the Majin charm, male or female be damned. Where the storytelling falters, and what people continue to have a problem with now with Super, is that none of that strong will has returned. Even I was giving them a chance in those first couple Super episodes, and I'd like to continue to give them a chance, but we're missing a key part of Videl's character by having "strong girl gets beaten down, never again taking up the mantle of fighter!"

Incidentally, that's actually why I really like Chi-Chi's attack in DBZ Movie 1, and the Great Saiyaman 1 & II antics in DBZ Movie 13. The writers in those scenes remembered what made those characters more than a one-dimensional caricature of themselves.

And that's all I'm really asking for in terms of storytelling in Dragon Ball every so often. Don't confuse the issue and exaggerate the standpoint; I'm not necessary saying "the series will never be redeemed in my eyes until they definitively declare a woman the strongest fighter in all the multiverse!" I mean, if they do, I guess that's be pretty cool, too. I'd just like for Videl to throw a goddamn punch again .

Yes, but that's a character problem, and not a sexism problem. Remember when Yamcha tried the gravity chamber, failed horribly, and then never really tried being useful ever again? It's the same with Videl. It has nothing to do with gender, it just has everything to do with bad writing. (especially for a show that boasts a "never give up" attitude)

[Kuririn Fan]

Why are Westerners so easily offended/ find everything offensive? Is that the next step humans take when they're living in the best countries possible and have everything they want? Do they get bored and getting offended is at least something and comparable to the problems the rest of the world has?

[VegettoEX]

Why are Westerners so easily offended/ find everything offensive? Is that the next step humans take when they're living in the best countries possible and have everything they want? Do they get bored and getting offended is at least something and comparable to the problems the rest of the world has?

It's a little bit of "yes, we have a lifestyle that affords us the opportunity to sit back and discuss something other than when the tiger is going to invade our village and eat our young" combined with "it's just that we happen to have some intellectual curiosity in things, sometimes that's OK, and equating it to people sitting here being offended on a 24/7 basis is only slightly out of context and asinine."