Turns out, power levels are BS! Who knew?

[Zephyr]

The only issue I take with your analysis is you state that the option for them not to be universe busting level is true. I can see how it can be... but it would take a fair amount of assumptions from the audience to draw that conclusion if they had watched the Beerus Fight and heard Beerus say Goku didn't power down much and made the power his own etc. A casual watcher would always assume Goku is universe busting level because its implied through the writing that Goku maintained the power level afterwards.

If a casual viewer sees Goku almost destroy a lot of stuff, is said to retain that power, and then afterwards completely consistently not demonstrate that destructive force, I feel like they wouldn't even bother thinking about "universe busting" anymore, because that's not at all what any of the present implications for his power level are. Once they're thinking more about "oh, but hey, they never said his power went away!" they're not as casual. And if they're not casual anymore, and they're bothering to piece together problems with the narrative, they can bother patching things up.

You either enjoy it for what it is, or you think about it. Nobody in either case is condemned to think it is bad writing.

The problem as I said before is that power growth and feats are probably one of the main themes of Dragonball, so when fans latch on to that as their favored theme you can't blame them for being confused and upset.

I'm talking about the fanmade rules being contradicted. That's what seems to be the problem. If this is still about SSj Vegeta and Magetta, then I still don't see the problem. God can bust universes, and 1 has trouble lifting something too heavy for it to lift. Stronger form can do more than weaker form. What's the problem? I wouldn't complain about Base Goku in the Cell arc having trouble with something that Super Saiyan 1 Goku from the Namek arc could easily do. That's the straightforward kind of thing that casual fans are going to notice. Not strict rules about how to properly scale these made up numbers to displays of mystical kung fu powers with respect to as much real world physics as we can possibly throw in. That's hardcore as fuck.

[TheMikado]

I know I'm late to this but any casual viewer who only watched BoG arc or even just the episode with SSJ God fighting Beerus and saw a clip of SSJ3 getting fingered by him earlier. In your mind it naturally flows that OK, SSJ Goku is way stronger like universe level busting. Then you get lax and hope in again at the Champa tournament arc. Now you're triple confused because of what you saw of SSJ in BoG and now you got Piccolo and everybody else in the tournament in that tier level, plus you now have SSB and Kaioken x10.

Thinking you missed something you go back and rewatch the series again and never really get an explanation on how SSJ Goku went from universe buster to hanging around a ton of people on a similar level including Piccolo.

To me and other casuals it would be like seeing Superman pick up Mt. Everest and then have trouble picking up a car. I don't care much about the Magetta thing as it was a gag, but when things are done in the same level of tone and seriousness I would expect consistency on those bits. That's all but again their are many more things which are poor writing than just power levels in Super.

[The Monkey King]

This whole thread is just a simple example of:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... nnotDoMath

The way I see it Toriyama is an artist not mathematician, therefore the weight numbers given in Dragon Ball have always contradicted the strength feats he drew them performing.

Like how the OP points out that Goku lifted and threw a Renault 5 Turbo (1 ton) then a few chapters later Goku is wearing a 20kg turtle shell to train.
Tao throws a stone pillar 2300km at mach 7 speeds but then everyone is impressed by 23rd BT Goku's 100kg weighted gi.
Flying at hypersonic speeds as DB characters do should put them through 10,000s of Gs worth of force but then they struggle in gravity chambers with a few 100 Gs
And now we have characters smashing planets and threatening to destroy the entire universe with their punches struggling with 1000 tons.
It doesn't make sense but Dragon Ball's always been like this so it's nothing worth getting heated about now, I personally choose ignore the weight numbers since they're too inconsistent with all the other strength feats.

[TheMikado]

^ Perfect link! The problem I'm having is that people are insisting it makes sense in universe and it doesn't. This doesn't mean the other parts of the story or complete trash, it's just bad/messy writing. It happens. What gets my goat is people attempting to justify it by saying its a fictional world so it's cool. You can argue the significance all day which in my opinion it really isn't very important but people arguing as to whether a mistake was made at all is just blinders level rationalization in my opinion.

[ABED]

^ Perfect link! The problem I'm having is that people are insisting it makes sense in universe and it doesn't. This doesn't mean the other parts of the story or complete trash, it's just bad/messy writing. It happens. What gets my goat is people attempting to justify it by saying its a fictional world so it's cool. You can argue the significance all day which in my opinion it really isn't very important but people arguing as to whether a mistake was made at all is just blinders level rationalization in my opinion.

It's bad because it doesn't correspond to real world physics? You could list all sorts of inconsistencies all day if you think of real science. Using "it's fiction" isn't an excuse, it's a legit argument when talking about fantasy. A fictional world breaking its fictional rules is different than a fictional world breaking real world rules. I'll grant you the turtle shell thing and Goku's weighted gi, but the original poster's whole thing about mathematically extrapolating how much they should be able to lift based on power levels which wasn't a well defined concept is something else entirely.

[TheMikado]

^ Perfect link! The problem I'm having is that people are insisting it makes sense in universe and it doesn't. This doesn't mean the other parts of the story or complete trash, it's just bad/messy writing. It happens. What gets my goat is people attempting to justify it by saying its a fictional world so it's cool. You can argue the significance all day which in my opinion it really isn't very important but people arguing as to whether a mistake was made at all is just blinders level rationalization in my opinion.

It's bad because it doesn't correspond to real world physics? You could list all sorts of inconsistencies all day if you think of real science. Using "it's fiction" isn't an excuse, it's a legit argument when talking about fantasy. A fictional world breaking its fictional rules is different than a fictional world breaking real world rules. I'll grant you the turtle shell thing and Goku's weighted gi, but the original poster's whole thing about mathematically extrapolating how much they should be able to lift based on power levels which wasn't a well defined concept is something else entirely.

He's not basing it on power "levels" though. He's basing this all on feats something that the Dragonball series constantly touts. If it's a recurring theme in the series then it should certainly be fair game for analysis. We people start talking about "power" people get up in arms because they think it was pretty much only used in the Saiyan and Namek arcs. But that's not even remotely true. We are talking about feats. A constant and consistent theme for the measure of power in the Dragonball series. So yes when you have characters who can apparently destroy the universe with a single punch, your feats and by extension your power levels are such that you literally have almost no where else to go with your narrative in terms of your overarching power and feats theme. The idea that power levels are BS is ridiculous when that has literally been the theme of the entire series since the Saiyan arc. You can't take a major theme of the series and ignore because it's not very well done or got to a point where it's now outrageous. It is a major major major theme of the series and the power progression is not well done and that's ok to admit. Basically if I write a narrative with a major theme of romance and its not well done then it would deserve criticism not a hand wave saying that "oh well love is overrated anyway" or "it's fiction so the romance is allowed to be poorly executed." This isn't about an analysis of real world vs fictional physics. This is about comparing feats within universe, again in terms of strictly the Magetta thing it was a gag so it's not really relevant but it's not like that is the only example through the series either.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

When people say Power Levels are BS, they mean in the sense of trying to apply hardcore mathematical values (like "If this dude has a powerlevel of 3.567.284, that must mean that he is 2.455.354,34352 times stronger than the other dude with a power level of 2.145.456 and that means that he can bust in this thing). Which is something you´re still complaint, your made up maths not making sense.

[ABED]

It is a story and if the writer choses to not focus on romance, that's a perfectly valid option. It's not us saying "you're allowed to execute it poorly". It's, "he's allowed to not feature it." Go back to the original post, it was basically "if they can move X lbs at this power level, then logically if their power level is 10x more they should be able to lift x times more."

[TheMikado]

When people say Power Levels are BS, they mean in the sense of trying to apply hardcore mathematical values (like "If this dude has a powerlevel of 3.567.284, that must mean that he is 2.455.354,34352 times stronger than the other dude with a power level of 2.145.456 and that means that he can bust in this thing). Which is something you´re still complaint, your made up maths not making sense.

It is a story and if the writer choses to not focus on romance, that's a perfectly valid option. It's not us saying "you're allowed to execute it poorly". It's, "he's allowed to not feature it." Go back to the original post, it was basically "if they can move X lbs at this power level, then logically if their power level is 10x more they should be able to lift x times more."

It's obvious that you cannot apply hardcore math and I don't think he is stating that you should be able to. The OP was staying that based on previous feats it doesn't make sense for a character to have trouble with 1% of what you would expect them to be capable of based on their own previous feats.

I hate using the Magetta example because it's a gag but it goes along the same argument that if someone is strong enough to destroy the universe with a punch there isn't much that should actually be a challenge at this point.
One Punch Man specifically and smartly addresses this paradox. When you start scaling your character to ridiculous power levels you can't write a compelling story effectively anymore and OPM is great critique on that. No one is asking for strict adherence but again you can't make your characters literally billions/trillions of times stronger at random unless you have a very smart well written narrative. In your example you say the writer chooses not the focus on Romance or whatever the theme is, the problem is this writer has CHOSEN to reference power multiple times in every arc to the point where even applying power comparisons and multipliers on that power. If the writer voluntarily chooses to center his story around the theme of increasing power and then comparing it to previous levels of power, how can you expect the audience to not follow the major theme that the author presented.
Power, feats, and their comparisons are a MAJOR HUGE aspect of the Dragonball narrative from Z onward. You cannot blame the fanbase for latching on the that theme and critiquing it. If the writer didn't want it to be themed about power then it should have never had the emphasis it has even in Super.

I'm going to use this quote from another thread to illustrate the point

Goku's base is as weak as it needs to be to (i) get temporarily stopped by Chaozu's psychic ability or (ii) fight evenly with 3rd form Frost but is simulateusly as strong as it needs to be to (a) punch and destroy that giant sphere of the merged Beerus' blast and SSJ Goku's Kamehameha, (b)be able to somewhat spar with Whis, (c)take unrestrained blasts from Beerus and surviving, (d)be superior to 100% form RoF Freeza that even in his first form was much stronger than Piccolo and SSJ Gohan,(e) do better against Hit than SSB Vegeta and (f)hold his own while sparring against Beerus disguised as Monaka.

So basically as strong or as weak as the plot demands.

Basically the characters abilities are determined by the plot rather than a character as we know them determining the plot by what they are actually able to achieve within their limitations. It's a poor writing style especially when your theme is about power, feats, character abilities. So essentially you've literally just recreated Superman but with a different name where the characters have any ability at any moment in order to make a story or plot point.

[ABED]

it makes him over 800x stronger, which should make him be able to lift over 800 tons

is literally what the original post says. I get your point and I agree that when you start having people this insanely powerful as Beerus or even Buu were said to be, it's hard to create drama, much in the same way Superman is often hard to write for when he's so powerful. That's one thing, but the original poster's comments were way too concrete. His point was Toriyama's a bad writer because the characters should be FAR stronger based on some made up logic. Dragon Ball's writing has its flaws, but the made up math is low on the list. Your argument is different than the original poster's. I also would add that Ki is different than pure physical strength.

[TheMikado]

it makes him over 800x stronger, which should make him be able to lift over 800 tons

is literally what the original post says. I get your point and I agree that when you start having people this insanely powerful as Beerus or even Buu were said to be, it's hard to create drama, much in the same way Superman is often hard to write for when he's so powerful. That's one thing, but the original poster's comments were way too concrete. His point was Toriyama's a bad writer because the characters should be FAR stronger based on some made up logic. Dragon Ball's writing has its flaws, but the made up math is low on the list. Your argument is different than the original poster's. I also would add that Ki is different than pure physical strength.

I get what you're saying but I think people were too focused on his concrete examples then him seeming to imply the issue wasn't so much a 1:1 scale on power levels but the implied feat scaling being so drastically small by comparison.

I mean, without even all this counting, without knowing their power levels you would realize it by yourself that they should be able to easily lift cities by now, right? C'mon, they are literally creating gigantic craters in the ground by punching EACH OTHER (yes, NOT the ground, but THEMSELVES), so they must be RIDICULOUSLY strong!
Well, sucks to be you, because ACTUALLY they CAN'T LIFT EVEN 1%(!!!!!!!!!!!!) of what you'd expect them to lift - SSJ Vegeta tried to lift Magetta but he failed! It was later revealed that he weights 1000-and-something tons!!!

I think it's kinda like if Super was written where after the Beerus fight SSJ Goku could only destroy half the universe, or 10% of it and that's after some serious effort and SSJ3 with the new God ki I doubt a lot of people would be like "Hey that feats not scaling linearly!" I think a fluctuation of power is acceptable for most people. A near recont of the previous feats and power levels/abilities ticks off as many fans in the DBZ universe as it would in any other fantasy based comic from Marvel or DC.

I also don't see it as just the Magetta argument like he said in his original post.

Ofc, in Toriyama's case, I'm not just referring to that fight with Magetta, I'm talking about what he has done for the entire series, especially SUPER.

As he says Super just turned it up to 110,00,000 on 1-10 scale. When your first arc is Goku gaining the ability to destroy the entire universe with a single punch as just SSJ, then you get SSB, and then SSB x 10 Kaioken it seems like Goku should be able to destroy 10 if the 12 universes just from powering up.
I know we use specific examples but is not those specific examples that at the problem, its the trend which was already ridiculous in Z. Goku should be at like Superboy Prime levels now in terms of overpowered and broken. Goku should be so powerful that he can break the bonds of fiction and step into our reality but instead he's spending his time struggling against scrubs in a fighting tournament. I'm of course kidding but it is the same issues writing for Superman faces and the OP recognizes that the only way back from this is to artificially scale characters back but not cluing the audience into it unto you've already done it.