Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Even if Goku was holding back against Frost, you are suggesting that he was using less than 1% of his power.

How? Base Goku would just be between Third and Fourth Form Frost. Piccolo would be below Base Goku and perhaps more on the level of Third Form Frost.

So it's go Frost (4) > Base Goku > Frost (3) =/= Piccolo

other than that he is weaker than Kaioshin

That was never made clear.

Base Goku post-God, even if you go by the anime, is many times stronger than SS3 Goku, who is many times stronger than Piccolo.

That's also something that isn't clear. I'd say he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and below SSJG Goku but where exactly is a mystery.

Vegeta had to transform against an even more tired Frost than the one Piccolo started fighting, which either means that Frost was stronger than base Vegeta, or that base Vegeta was stronger, but not strong enough to one-shot him.

That could be either but I'd say it was more likely that Frost was still stronger than Base Vegeta especially considering the huge gap Frieza's race seems to have between the third and fourth forms.

Either way, this brings Piccolo close to them, which shouldn't be possible nor would it make any sense.

Well no matter what angle you approach it from in the grand scheme of the manga, anime and movies no one theory seems to make much sense.

Going by the manga and including Toyotaro's RoF manga then Final Form Frost is stronger than Final Form Frieza so it should follow that First and Third Form Frost is stronger than First and Third Form Frieza.

Piccolo was supposed to be no match at all for First Form Frieza but is a match for a tired Final Form Frost though he employs a defensive strategy and knows he can't win anyway.

So Piccolo would have to gotten stronger whether it was shown or mentioned or not.

Unless if Goku & Vegeta didn't have any SSG power in their base & SS forms, which the Super manga doesn't have any indication so far to begin with.

And then they'd be weaker than Piccolo like they were back in DBZ and that's obviously not going to be the case because it would completely contradict the Resurrection F story.

Watch the fight again.

I had a look with subs and he says "Yeah he means business", which could mean he was at 100% in base.

In the arc again Beerus said to Goku his power hadn't dropped when he was a Super Saiyan but then later on Whis implied they could still get stronger turning into a Super Saiyan.

So if Super Saiyan was equal to SSJG in the anime and it's stronger than Base then Base can't be as strong as SSJG in the Super anime at least.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How? Base Goku would just be between Third and Fourth Form Frost. Piccolo would be below Base Goku and perhaps more on the level of Third Form Frost.

So it's go Frost (4) > Base Goku > Frost (3) =/= Piccolo

That would mean that Frost is many times weaker than base Goku, which is not what we saw.

That was never made clear.

More than clear, but this isn't the place to discuss this.

That's also something that isn't clear. I'd say he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and below SSJG Goku but where exactly is a mystery.

We saw in the episode 42 that Beerus had to put some effort to fight with base Goku (U6 arc), while he didn't need to put any effort to defeat SS3 Goku or Enraged SS2 Vegeta, which shows that base Goku is now much, much stronger than SS3.

That could be either but I'd say it was more likely that Frost was still stronger than Base Vegeta especially considering the huge gap Frieza's race seems to have between the third and fourth forms.

That's what I believe as well, but if base/SS Goku & Vegeta have even a small amount of SSG (which isn't even hinted in the manga so far), then Piccolo would still be magically stronger than SS3.

Well no matter what angle you approach it from in the grand scheme of the manga, anime and movies no one theory seems to make much sense.

Going by the manga and including Toyotaro's RoF manga then Final Form Frost is stronger than Final Form Frieza so it should follow that First and Third Form Frost is stronger than First and Third Form Frieza.

Piccolo was supposed to be no match at all for First Form Frieza but is a match for a tired Final Form Frost though he employs a defensive strategy and knows he can't win anyway.

So Piccolo would have to gotten stronger whether it was shown or mentioned or not.

The FnF manga is not part of Super, it's a separate thing. The manga so far has no mention of base/SS Goku & Vegeta having SSG power, so Frost appears to be stronger than Freeza from Namek, but much weaker than Freeza after his revival & training. Which is why Goku told him to train like Freeza did.

I had a look with subs and he says "Yeah he means business", which could mean he was at 100% in base.

He was at 100% as a Super Saiyan God, watch it again. Just before SSG ends, Beerus asks Goku if his still not serious, and Goku replies that he is, and at that moment SSG ends.

In the arc again Beerus said to Goku his power hadn't dropped when he was a Super Saiyan but then later on Whis implied they could still get stronger turning into a Super Saiyan.

So if Super Saiyan was equal to SSJG in the anime and it's stronger than Base then Base can't be as strong as SSJG in the Super anime at least.

Even though I like the anime, it's a mess when it comes to battle powers, so I don't even care to talk about it at this moment. The movies & FnF manga make it clear that neither Super Saiyan nor Super Saiyan God makes them significant stronger, and that the next step is Super Saiyan Blue. If the Super manga ends up tying-in with the movies, then we will see 2 base forms, there is no other way to get around it.

[Bullza]

That would mean that Frost is many times weaker than base Goku, which is not what we saw.

Which Frost? Third Form Frost? He doesn't have to be that many times weaker than Goku.

We saw in the episode 42 that Beerus had to put some effort to fight with base Goku (U6 arc), while he didn't need to put any effort to defeat SS3 Goku or Enraged SS2 Vegeta, which shows that base Goku is now much, much stronger than SS3.

Well that's true but we don't know how serious he was compared to when he fought SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta or SSJG Goku. Would he be fighting as seriously as when he fought SSJG Goku? Probably not plus he was in the costume and was having difficulty.

He's obviously stronger than SSJ3 level but the gap between that SSJG is immense and he's apparently somewhere in between. Going by the anime he should be 1/50th as strong as SSJG which could still be well above SSJ2 Vegeta.

The FnF manga is not part of Super, it's a separate thing.

But the story would remain the same regardless. Frieza would still be stronger than the Z Fighters, Base Goku would have still fought him and so on, that's not gonna change.

So Base Goku would still be stronger or as strong as Frieza in his final form but then is apparently not as strong as Frost in his final form if he needs to turn Super Saiyan.

[ssbgoku]

Welcome guys again, well I must say I have rewatched all dragon super episodes(of course not just second in second but still) and I would like to present my opinion how dragon ball super power level is presented. First I would like to mention that my comparision and scaling is based on six elements.

1) Beerus's constant lying about using his power. Of course I am not implying that Beerus was using full power against goku or something like that. However It seems people believe base goku must be above his ssj3 level due to beerus effortlessly one shot ssj3 goku or so it was shown like that. Beerus being disappointed and then in 42 episode we see base goku going against beerus in disguise of monaca. It seems people seem to forget that back then beerus was looking for ssg the very powerfull character who would be challenge to beerus but in current super episodes beerus knows limits of base goku but is still thrilled and enjoy battle because first he already met ssg character so his desire isn't so strong and also beerus knows about goku's ssb power or transformation.

2) goku calling Mr. buu crazy strong and it was after rof arc, it only can mean that Mr. buu is at least challenge for base goku and vegeta to deal with. Frieeza reffering to goku suprassing majin buu clearly reffer to Mr. buu who would be just above ssj2 tier or high ssj2 tier. The same frieeza who mentions that while being in final form(fourth form)

3) Piccolo and Gohan's weak performance against Shisami and Ginyuu using shisami's body. It clearly was shown that gohan was slacking off really bad and either picoolo was retconned to be much weaker or he just degraded in training along with gohan before training again with gohan. Gohan having trouble to go ssj and then later mentioning to be retrained from scratch. Mr. Buu was mentioned by Krillin as hope so we can even go with Mr. Buu >= First Form Frieeza

4) Ssj gotenks was certain he can beat up frieeza even although eveyrone else was at alert. That means at least ssj gotenks >> first form frieeza.

5) Mr buu being choosen before Picoolo who trained, means Mr. buu is still stronger. It just means Akira thought Mr. Buu would be higher.

6) EOZ, base goku was as strong as ssj3 goku from buu arc or close to this level.

Dbs tier:

vados/whis
beerus/champa
ssb goku/vegeta
hit
golden frieeza
ssg goku
ssj vegito
ssj goku/vegeta/enraged ssj2 vegeta - above buuhan/basse vegito but below ssj vegito
Magenta - ultimate gohan
ssj cabba - ssj3 gotenks
Final form frost - super buu
base goku/vegeta - ssj2 gotenks
Final form frieeza/ssj gohan - ssj gotenks/bog ssj3 goku
Assault form Frost/Picoolo - kid buu
First form Frost/base cabba - Mr.buu
First Form Frieeza - majin ssj2 vegeta
Picoolo
base gohan

Also I believes hit wasn't as strong as kaioken ssb goku. What I actually believes with some hints is that hit used only weakness kaioken gives which is decreasing body endurance and using time stkip technique hit goku so many times that he gave up for a bit and lost kaioken. The one punch of kaioken ssb goku put hit on ground. Also another stuff is that Goku only used kaioken x 10 in kamehameha wave and try to hit Hit and later he was only using regular kaioken. It is just same as goku vs frieeza on namek when it wasn't shown that goku was using kaioken x10 until it was mentioned. I just believe DBS power was retcon so nothing should be taken as granted unless it is still shown the same.

Also about goku absorbing god essence, well it can be explained like that: ssg goku->base goku + fading away ssg essence -> ssj goku + burning ssg essence -> base goku barerly able to fight + ssg essence. Later Whis comparing goku and vegeta to beerus by castle tree comparision, well it all makes sense even whi'ss comment that they vastly improved well base Saiyan jumping from namek frieeza arc to ssj3 goku which is x400 stronger is enough to be considered huge boost. In other words I just believe god essence allowed base goku and vegeta for ridiculous jump to ssj3 tier in base but only fully was used when used as ssb.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Which Frost? Third Form Frost? He doesn't have to be that many times weaker than Goku.

Piccolo is weaker than Majin Boo, who was weaker than SS3 Goku. Base Goku is either 1/50th of SSG (if you go by the anime), or as strong as SSG (if you go by the movies), and either way much, much stronger than SS3. 3rd Form Frost has to be close to the level of gods if base Goku is there as well, and thus Piccolo should be as well... but we know he isn't.

Well that's true but we don't know how serious he was compared to when he fought SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta or SSJG Goku. Would he be fighting as seriously as when he fought SSJG Goku? Probably not plus he was in the costume and was having difficulty.

I'm not saying he was fighting as seriously as he did against SSG Goku, but he fought much more seriously than he did against SS3 Goku & Enraged SS2 Vegeta. Goku & Vegeta didn't even give him a real fight, while base Goku forced him to at least fight him & visibly power-up. So, either going by the anime or by the movies, base Goku should be at a completely different level than Piccolo, something we don't see in the manga.

But the story would remain the same regardless. Frieza would still be stronger than the Z Fighters, Base Goku would have still fought him and so on, that's not gonna change.

The anime changed lots of things from the movies, so why can't the manga do the same? But even if you go by the FnF manga, how do you explain that base Goku is as strong as SSG when he isn't as strong as SSG in the U6 arc of the manga?

[Bullza]

3rd Form Frost has to be close to the level of gods if base Goku is there as well, and thus Piccolo should be as well... but we know he isn't.

Well we'd obviously have to go with the anime before the movie being as the arc in question is apart of the anime. If Base Goku is 1/50th as strong as SSJG then he isn't close to the level of Gods, that would be even more true for Third Form Frost and Piccolo as well if they were weaker still. So none of them are close to the level of Gods.

So, either going by the anime or by the movies, base Goku should be at a completely different level than Piccolo, something we don't see in the manga.

It's not something we see in the anime either. It's awkward what with Third Form Frost beating Goku but him apparently being unharmed and not being serious so we don't know how far above him he is except he isn't stronger than Final Form Frost.

By all accounts if Piccolo stood no chance against Frieza in his first form then he should have no business standing up to any form of Frost but he does.

The anime changed lots of things from the movies, so why can't the manga do the same?

Because that wouldn't make any sense. They skipped the RoF arc but of course they're going to assume that the readers know what happened during the RoF story.

If readers have a recollection of what happened between events then there's not going to be a radically different and unseen version of the RoF story in the Super manga continuity, it would just be the same story that people know of.

But even if you go by the FnF manga, how do you explain that base Goku is as strong as SSG when he isn't as strong as SSG in the U6 arc of the manga?

Well they never said he was as strong as SSJG in the RoF manga, there was just an image of it in the background which may or may not imply they are the same in strenght.

There's no one answer, there's no real consistency at all. Some things point to Base being as strong as SSJG and then some things say otherwise.

I said to you before that I doubted that Base was as strong as SSJG it'd mean SSJB gave a pitiful increase in strenght which was not how it was implied in the movie but for all we know Base could have been as strong as SSJG and SSJB could have been drastically more powerful, many times more powerful but still been weaker than Beerus because the 6/10/15 scale could have already been thrown at that point.

But Super seems to say different. Every movie, anime and manga seems to have a different interpretation of the same thing.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

ssbgoku, Gotenks saying he can beat someone makes it a fact? Are we talking about the same Gotenks that is constantly wrong about everything?

[ssbgoku]

ssbgoku, Gotenks saying he can beat someone makes it a fact? Are we talking about the same Gotenks that is constantly wrong about everything?

Well It does not as gotenks is known to be cocky guy but still noone denied it or feel bad for gotenks. It just seems everyone was not worried about gotenks dying or having no chance but rather: "Oh crap gotenks is here, he is most likely going to do something stupid or some foolish move and we can get in more danger then we already are."

For example:

Pov's Picoolo: "shit, gotenks is clearly supperior to frieeza and can beat his ass but knowing frieeza he will just transform in higher form eventually reaching fourth form, and he is already so powerfull at his first form, damn gotenks may get us all killed"

Pov's Gohan: "no goten, you are just kids all you manage to do is making frieeza and just forcing him to transform again and again and eventually he will kill all of us before dad and vegeta arrive."

IN short stalling for goku and vegeta as it seems their's plan was to, would backfire if gotenks pissed frieeza...

Also about ssg getting absorbed by goku. Well for sure goku has absorbed that power but There was no mention that goku can summon it's power at will. This is what Whis's traning was, just the moment ssg image has shown behind base goku meant that goku is slowly tapping in ssg power again. However until ssb noone commented about it and King Kai mentioned goku becoming god finally on his own as refference to ssg. IN shorts.

base goku(ssg essence 1% or 2%) - bog ssj3 goku
About ssj it either works as multiplier on base or maybe it allows goku to tap into more of ssg power. Also about ssj goku and base goku having short duel with beerus in bog, well ssg may fade away from outside view but it was still present inside his body as beerus mentioned about "crimson fire still burning inside you"

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

From what I remember, everyone was just awkwardly staring at him during his sudden arrival, wondering what he was doing there. I don't think anyone was relieved.

Base Goku, or Goku after absorbing the God Power should be way above his Super Saiyan 3 level, though. He could at least sense Gods. Super Saiyan 3 Goku couldn't.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo > Super Saiyan/Weakened Ultimate Gohan confirmed.

[Lord Beerus]

Baby Pan powering up was enough to completely destroy the Pilaf Machine and she was able to breath in the vacuum of space while reaching for stars in the universe and then fly back the earth in no time with a smile on her face.

Baby Pan > All.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo > Super Saiyan/Weakened Ultimate Gohan confirmed.

According to what?

[Lord Beerus]

Piccolo > Super Saiyan/Weakened Ultimate Gohan confirmed.

According to what?

Straight from Herms:

Goku's got "Delayed Onset" ki syndrome from the tournament, so he can't control his ki properly

Kaio tells Goku to take it easy and not push himself so much, otherwise he might never be able to get any stronger, be unable to fight properly, etc

Goku says right now he'd even lose to Piccolo

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo > Super Saiyan/Weakened Ultimate Gohan confirmed.

According to what?

Edit: Beaten.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo > Super Saiyan/Weakened Ultimate Gohan confirmed.

According to what?

Straight from Herms:

Goku's got "Delayed Onset" ki syndrome from the tournament, so he can't control his ki properly

Kaio tells Goku to take it easy and not push himself so much, otherwise he might never be able to get any stronger, be unable to fight properly, etc

Goku says right now he'd even lose to Piccolo

That says Goku would lose, not Gohan. Also what's up with "Delayed Onset ki syndrome"?

[ZombieVito]

That says Goku would lose, not Gohan. Also what's up with "Delayed Onset ki syndrome"?

The previous tweet was about Gohan.

[Brettjr25]

Dbs tier:

vados/whis
beerus/champa
ssb goku/vegeta
hit
golden frieeza
ssg goku
ssj vegito
ssj goku/vegeta/enraged ssj2 vegeta - above buuhan/basse vegito but below ssj vegito
Magenta - ultimate gohan
ssj cabba - ssj3 gotenks
Final form frost - super buu
base goku/vegeta - ssj2 gotenks
Final form frieeza/ssj gohan - ssj gotenks/bog ssj3 goku
Assault form Frost/Picoolo - kid buu
First form Frost/base cabba - Mr.buu
First Form Frieeza - majin ssj2 vegeta
Picoolo
base gohan

Also I believes hit wasn't as strong as kaioken ssb goku. What I actually believes with some hints is that hit used only weakness kaioken gives which is decreasing body endurance and using time stkip technique hit goku so many times that he gave up for a bit and lost kaioken. The one punch of kaioken ssb goku put hit on ground. Also another stuff is that Goku only used kaioken x 10 in kamehameha wave and try to hit Hit and later he was only using regular kaioken. It is just same as goku vs frieeza on namek when it wasn't shown that goku was using kaioken x10 until it was mentioned. I just believe DBS power was retcon so nothing should be taken as granted unless it is still shown the same.

Also about goku absorbing god essence, well it can be explained like that: ssg goku->base goku + fading away ssg essence -> ssj goku + burning ssg essence -> base goku barerly able to fight + ssg essence. Later Whis comparing goku and vegeta to beerus by castle tree comparision, well it all makes sense even whi'ss comment that they vastly improved well base Saiyan jumping from namek frieeza arc to ssj3 goku which is x400 stronger is enough to be considered huge boost. In other words I just believe god essence allowed base goku and vegeta for ridiculous jump to ssj3 tier in base but only fully was used when used as ssb.

Why is Vegeta equal to Goku and above Hit? Him and goku arent joined at the hips. Hit was clearly above him and made him look like a fool. Even with knowledge Vegeta would still get owned.

I also disagree about Hit being weaker than goku. Current Hit who continued to improve is above Goku, regardless of how he does it. His timeskip improved to the point where it could stop kaioken blue goku and for a great amount of time. What was it 5 seconds? Give Hit 5 seconds on Goku able to kill and Goku, if he manages to live, would walk away in pretty f#cked up condition. We also have yet to see Hits limits or how he would keep improving.

[dbzfan7]

According to what?

Straight from Herms:

Goku's got "Delayed Onset" ki syndrome from the tournament, so he can't control his ki properly

Kaio tells Goku to take it easy and not push himself so much, otherwise he might never be able to get any stronger, be unable to fight properly, etc

Goku says right now he'd even lose to Piccolo

That says Goku would lose, not Gohan. Also what's up with "Delayed Onset ki syndrome"?

Pretty sure Goku's talking about himself. He's literally really weak right now, which is the point of this episode, and the next episode apparently.

[ZombieVito]

Pretty sure Goku's talking about himself. He's literally really weak right now, which is the point of this episode, and the next episode apparently.

Yeah it appears that is the case. I jumped the gun since the previous tweet was Chi Chi talking about Gohan.

[dbzfan7]

Baby Pan powering up was enough to completely destroy the Pilaf Machine and she was able to breath in the vacuum of space while reaching for stars in the universe and then fly back the earth in no time with a smile on her face.

Baby Pan > All.

Bullshit. God Satan is top tier. Nothing tops God Satan. You can argue she might be above regular Satan, but nobody can stand up to the awesome power of Super God Satan.