Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Again, do you have any proof that the events in the Super manga continuity definitely happened as we've seen them?

Yes, the proof is that the writer is writing the U6 arc as a continuation of a story that readers are familiar with and not a completely different version that nobody knows of.

Do you think Piccolo would have been able to do the same to guys like Super Perfect Cell, Majin Boo, or Super Vegetto?

No. Buu's energy doesn't decrease, Vegito is a trained fighter and a fighting genius and like Cell wouldn't fall for the same strategy.

The Piccolo and Frost fight was different from most other fights, they made it apparent that Piccolo didn't stand a chance against Frost and they also emphasised him fighting on the defensive to waste Frost's stamina.

In the manga, Frost is weaker than Freeza after his training according to Goku. The anime doesn't have that line.

No he never said that. He said that if he trained he'd definitley get stronger because that's what Frieza did.

He had a chance to weaken him for Vegeta, which is why Piccolo fought.

And he did just by using strategy and being defensive to make Frost tire himself out. He didn't beat him down to weaken him, he made Frost weaken himself.

But the thing is, the Super manga is supposed to be its own thing, and the FnF arc isn't necessary to the story. It is written with the assumption that the readers haven't seen the movies or the anime, or else it would have started with the U6 arc.

It's it's own thing in the way it interprets Toriyama's plot outline differently to what Toei does and that's about it. It's not that the RoF arc wasn't necessary it was obviously skipped for a reason, possibly because he'd only just done the same story as a manga the very same year or because they wanted to skip to the U6 to tease what was to come or something else.

The writer knows that people are familiar with the RoF story, it was a new successful movie, there was a RoF arc on TV at the time and the Super anime is going to draw a vastly bigger crowd than the manga. So the Dragon Ball manga that's going to be read by Dragon Balls wouldn't be written under the assumption that these same fans hadn't seen the much more mainstream Dragon Ball movie or anime.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Super anime & manga start from BoG for a reason, that reason is because people that start watching/reading Super haven't watched the movies. They are not promotions for the movies like Dragon Ball SD is for the original manga or the FnF manga is for the FnF movie.

No. Buu's energy doesn't decrease, Vegito is a trained fighter and a fighting genius and like Cell wouldn't fall for the same strategy.

The Piccolo and Frost fight was different from most other fights, they made it apparent that Piccolo didn't stand a chance against Frost and they also emphasised him fighting on the defensive to waste Frost's stamina.

That's not why they wouldn't fall to Piccolo's trap, they wouldn't fall because it wouldn't work. Boo, Vegetto, or Cell would just disappear & appear in front of Piccolo and would casually one-shot him. If Frost was stronger than Freeza as you claim, he would have done the same.

No he never said that. He said that if he trained he'd definitley get stronger because that's what Frieza did.

He is talking to him as if he hasn't trained, like Freeza hadn't trained back on Namek.

[supercat]

If Beerus tried harder against Base Goku than he did against SSJ3 Goku, and Base Goku was able to actually put up a fight rather than getting utterly humiliated like he did as an SSJ3, doesn't that basically spell out Base Goku > SSJ3 Goku > Mr. Buu? I'm honestly baffled at how some fans still believe that Mr. Buu is even relevant this far out into the series.

Also, if Frost was deemed one of the top contenders from Universe 6, I don't see anything wrong with him wielding some unspecified level of Buu-busting power. We're talking about a show that has a track record of dishing out obnoxiously strong foes without much explanation.

If two technologically modified teenagers can overwhelm legendary warriors who could dethrone a universally-renowned and feared tyrant, I don't have a problem with some being descending from a mysteriously powerful species towering over a magical creature who was merely feared throughout one universe.

Universe 6 is just likely ridden with awe-inspiring power. Even if Base Vegeta is SSJ2-tier as some of you like to believe, Base Cabba, who can't even turn SSJ would already be leagues above any form of Base Goku / Vegeta pre-SSG. Let's not forget that both Magetta and Botamo were also likely worlds above Frieza (Namek), who was a top-tier fighter himself in Universe 7. Point is, whether or not Base Vegeta is SSG-tier, nothing takes away from the fact that Base Cabba is still miles ahead of anything Base Goku and Vegeta were able to showcase prior to absorbing SSG ki.

Given Base Goku's performance against Beerus on more than one occasion now, I'd say it's pretty plausible to assume that he has the ability to unleash at least 30% of his SSG power without the usage of any transformations. This would put fighters like Piccolo and Frost several notches above the strongest incarnation of Buu, but several tiers below SSG-tier; making the two somewhat relevant, but ultimately fodders against top contenders like Beerus, SSB Goku / Vegeta, Hit, Whis, Vados, and anyone else in that realm of power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So basically, Base Goku before absorbing the God Power and Base Vegeta before training with Whis?

I can admit Base Gohan is a special case, since his Super Saiyan form doesn't even work the same anymore.

Yes. Base Goku was weaker than Freeza in the beginning of BoG, and Piccolo at that point was much, much stronger than Freeza. Piccolo was weaker than the Super Saiyans in the Cell Games, and since he hasn't done any significant training since then (he didn't even try to enter inside the RoSaT for a 2nd day), nor did he get any comments about his power, I don't think he had reached their level in Boo arc, BoG, or FnF. In U6 of the manga, he is still between base & SS Goku and he is treated as weaker than Majin Boo, Frost is stated to be weaker than FnF Freeza (but obviously stronger than Namek arc Freeza, since he is stronger than Piccolo), and there is no comment about Goku absorbing any of of the SSG power anywhere in the manga so far. I don't think it's a coincidence.

Understood. So how strong do you think the Base Saiyans/Frost/Piccolo are in the anime?

[Bullza]

The Super anime & manga start from BoG for a reason, that reason is because people that start watching/reading Super haven't watched the movies.

What are you smoking? What Dragon Ball fans that started watching or reading Super haven't watched the movies? Super only came to be a reality because of the success of the movies in the first place.

Everyone watching Super has watched the movies.

That's not why they wouldn't fall to Piccolo's trap, they wouldn't fall because it wouldn't work. Boo, Vegetto, or Cell would just disappear & appear in front of Piccolo and would casually one-shot him. If Frost was stronger than Freeza as you claim, he would have done the same.

You don't know that. They put an emphasis on him standing no chance, being defensive and being strategic for a reason. It's not something that usually happens in DBZ to know how successful it would be on others.

Frost was stronger than Frieza otherwise Goku wouldn't have turned Super Saiyan to fight him unlike Frieza.

He is talking to him as if he hasn't trained, like Freeza hadn't trained back on Namek.

Yeah so without training he's stronger than Frieza with training. If Frost trained he'd become stronger still which is why Goku said that to him.

[apex_pretador]

If Beerus tried harder against Base Goku than he did against SSJ3 Goku, and Base Goku was able to actually put up a fight rather than getting utterly humiliated like he did as an SSJ3, doesn't that basically spell out Base Goku > SSJ3 Goku > Mr. Buu? I'm honestly baffled at how some fans still believe that Mr. Buu is even relevant this far out into the series.

Due to his candy beam and immense durability

Also, if Frost was deemed one of the top contenders from Universe 6, I don't see anything wrong with him wielding some unspecified level of Buu-busting power. We're talking about a show that has a track record of dishing out obnoxiously strong foes without much explanation.

If two technologically modified teenagers can overwhelm legendary warriors who could dethrone a universally-renowned and feared tyrant, I don't have a problem with some being descending from a mysteriously powerful species towering over a magical creature who was merely feared throughout one universe.

Exactly

Universe 6 is just likely ridden with awe-inspiring power. Even if Base Vegeta is SSJ2-tier as some of you like to believe, Base Cabba, who can't even turn SSJ would already be leagues above any form of Base Goku / Vegeta pre-SSG. Let's not forget that both Magetta and Botamo were also likely worlds above Frieza (Namek), who was a top-tier fighter himself in Universe 7. Point is, whether or not Base Vegeta is SSG-tier, nothing takes away from the fact that Base Cabba is still miles ahead of anything Base Goku and Vegeta were able to showcase prior to absorbing SSG ki.

We don't know how strong these two are, except they are a tough challenge.

Given Base Goku's performance against Beerus on more than one occasion now, I'd say it's pretty plausible to assume that he has the ability to unleash at least 30% of his SSG power without the usage of any transformations. This would put fighters like Piccolo and Frost several notches above the strongest incarnation of Buu, but several tiers below SSG-tier; making the two somewhat relevant, but ultimately fodders against top contenders like Beerus, SSB Goku / Vegeta, Hit, Whis, Vados, and anyone else in that realm of power.

I wouldn't put piccolo above buu, even Mr buu as of now. He is definitely not above buuhan for sure. I can see him reaching AT BEST pre-split fat buu level without a comment on his strength.
He is THAT god of a fighter that he can fight frost despite huge disadvantage.

TBH I'm starting to feel like the power scaling isn't all that messed up in super it just most people here making it so complicated than already is.

Agreed

[Bullza]

So how powerful do people figure Super Shenron is? He was eating large planets before he was even full size and eventually he grew so big he feared galaxies.

Surely just based on his size alone he could bust a galaxy just by eating it or simply bulldose his way through them.

He's gotta be vastly more powerful than anyone from DBZ as the strongest characters are arguably galaxy level.

He's probably not as powerful as Super Saiyan God though if he can threaten the Universe but he's probably not all that far off.

[TheMikado]

So how powerful do people figure Super Shenron is? He was eating large planets before he was even full size and eventually he grew so big he feared galaxies.

Surely just based on his size alone he could bust a galaxy just by eating it or simply bulldose his way through them.

He's gotta be vastly more powerful than anyone from DBZ as the strongest characters are arguably galaxy level.

He's probably not as powerful as Super Saiyan God though if he can threaten the Universe but he's probably not all that far off.

In purely scientific terms galaxy buster and universe buster is the difference of one grain of sand multiplied by all the grains of sand on the earth. Which should put in perspective how powerful the claim of SSG is.

[supercat]

If Beerus tried harder against Base Goku than he did against SSJ3 Goku, and Base Goku was able to actually put up a fight rather than getting utterly humiliated like he did as an SSJ3, doesn't that basically spell out Base Goku > SSJ3 Goku > Mr. Buu? I'm honestly baffled at how some fans still believe that Mr. Buu is even relevant this far out into the series.

Due to his candy beam and immense durability

Also, if Frost was deemed one of the top contenders from Universe 6, I don't see anything wrong with him wielding some unspecified level of Buu-busting power. We're talking about a show that has a track record of dishing out obnoxiously strong foes without much explanation.

If two technologically modified teenagers can overwhelm legendary warriors who could dethrone a universally-renowned and feared tyrant, I don't have a problem with some being descending from a mysteriously powerful species towering over a magical creature who was merely feared throughout one universe.

Exactly

Universe 6 is just likely ridden with awe-inspiring power. Even if Base Vegeta is SSJ2-tier as some of you like to believe, Base Cabba, who can't even turn SSJ would already be leagues above any form of Base Goku / Vegeta pre-SSG. Let's not forget that both Magetta and Botamo were also likely worlds above Frieza (Namek), who was a top-tier fighter himself in Universe 7. Point is, whether or not Base Vegeta is SSG-tier, nothing takes away from the fact that Base Cabba is still miles ahead of anything Base Goku and Vegeta were able to showcase prior to absorbing SSG ki.

We don't know how strong these two are, except they are a tough challenge.

Given Base Goku's performance against Beerus on more than one occasion now, I'd say it's pretty plausible to assume that he has the ability to unleash at least 30% of his SSG power without the usage of any transformations. This would put fighters like Piccolo and Frost several notches above the strongest incarnation of Buu, but several tiers below SSG-tier; making the two somewhat relevant, but ultimately fodders against top contenders like Beerus, SSB Goku / Vegeta, Hit, Whis, Vados, and anyone else in that realm of power.

I wouldn't put piccolo above buu, even Mr buu as of now. He is definitely not above buuhan for sure. I can see him reaching AT BEST pre-split fat buu level without a comment on his strength.
He is THAT god of a fighter that he can fight frost despite huge disadvantage.

TBH I'm starting to feel like the power scaling isn't all that messed up in super it just most people here making it so complicated than already is.

Agreed

Determining Magetta and Botamo's exact placement on the power scale doesn't seem as important as the fact that they are likely leagues above Frieza (Namek).

Just for this discussion, let's assume Base Vegeta is SSJ2-tier as some like to believe; Base Cabba would still be leagues above anything Base Goku / Vegeta (Universe 7's top base saiyans, excluding Ultimate Gohan) were able to muster prior to absorbing SSG-ki. The point I'm trying to make is, whether or not we lowball everyone, Universe 6 is still ridden with an impressive roster of powerhouses; therefore, the concept of a top-tier contender like Frost towering over Buu doesn't really surprise me.

If we subscribe to Base Goku = 30-50% of SSG, Frost and Piccolo have a reasonable spot on the power scale. Final Form Frost would be 40-50% of SSG while Piccolo would be comfortably sitting somewhere around 35-40% of his Saiyan buddy's SSG incarnation.

I think once the notion of Buu becoming a thing of the past has been established, the introduction of massively powerful fighters will be easier to fathom. I hate resorting to the same analogy, but if 17 and 18 were able to instantly outclass not just Frieza but two Super Saiyans upon their debut, and Piccolo went from Second Form Frieza / Third Form Frieza-tier to some unspecified Gero-busting-tier through mere training, I don't get why Frost / Piccolo towering over Buu is that difficult to grasp. It seems unlikely that closing in on Kid Buu, Mr. Buu, and even Buuhan to some extent would be considered a notable milestone for fighters who could actually go head to head with a suppressed Beerus; Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Goku, and Mr. Buu could only dream of fighting at the caliber Base Goku did against Beerus.

[Overlord78]

So how powerful do people figure Super Shenron is? He was eating large planets before he was even full size and eventually he grew so big he feared galaxies.

Surely just based on his size alone he could bust a galaxy just by eating it or simply bulldose his way through them.

He's gotta be vastly more powerful than anyone from DBZ as the strongest characters are arguably galaxy level.

He's probably not as powerful as Super Saiyan God though if he can threaten the Universe but he's probably not all that far off.

Just from size alone he is far more powerful than the entire DBZ cast combined. Nobody came close to one shotting galaxies in Z and Super Shenlong dwarfs them by an insane degree.

During his summoning he actually outshined both Universe 6 & 7 so he might be stronger than SSG Goku as his fight with Beerus was only affecting Universe 7.

[Lupin879]

So how powerful do people figure Super Shenron is? He was eating large planets before he was even full size and eventually he grew so big he feared galaxies.

Surely just based on his size alone he could bust a galaxy just by eating it or simply bulldose his way through them.

He's gotta be vastly more powerful than anyone from DBZ as the strongest characters are arguably galaxy level.

He's probably not as powerful as Super Saiyan God though if he can threaten the Universe but he's probably not all that far off.

The size and destructive capacity does not make you more powerful in its entirety. Zarama can do everything and therefore he is omnipotent . The problem Goku blue god is that in addition to an increase of ki but he does not have other powers, for example he can't survive in the vacuum of the Space, no regeneration like Majin Buu, no Magic or matter manipulation. It is irrealistic , also Frieza first form can destroy god blue if he destroys the Planet.

[Overlord78]

So how powerful do people figure Super Shenron is? He was eating large planets before he was even full size and eventually he grew so big he feared galaxies.

Surely just based on his size alone he could bust a galaxy just by eating it or simply bulldose his way through them.

He's gotta be vastly more powerful than anyone from DBZ as the strongest characters are arguably galaxy level.

He's probably not as powerful as Super Saiyan God though if he can threaten the Universe but he's probably not all that far off.

The size and destructive capacity does not make you more powerful in its entirety. Zarama can do everything and therefore he is omnipotent . The problem Goku blue god is that in addition to an increase of ki but he does not have other powers, for example he can't survive in the vacuum of the Space, no regeneration like Majin Buu, no Magic or matter manipulation. It is irrealistic , also Frieza first form can destroy god blue if he destroys the Planet.

The only major weakness that Goku still has is that he can't survive in the vacuum of space even in god form. So while a planet's explosion won't kill him, the vacuum of space will.

[ZombieVito]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

[dbgtFO]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

"Nothing ever dies, we will rise agaaaain!"

[Bullza]

So if Super Saiyan is equal to Super Saiyan God or stronger seeing as they've trained, I suppose it gives an idea of where some of the others stack up.

Frost was no match at all for Super Saiyan but he was able to withstand some of his attacks which should put him well above SSJ3 level.

Magetta was powerful enough to give Super Saiyan Vegeta some trouble and easily overpowered his Galick Gun but the Final Flash did him in so he should be fairly close to God level.

Super Saiyan Cabba lay a beating on Super Saiyan Vegeta until he decided he didn't want to be beaten around anymore and took a punch to the forehead. Seemingly weaker than Magetta but we'll above Frost.

[DragonHermit]

Super contains too many contradictions to do a proper power scaling. For example, Goten and Trunks sensed Tagoma's power, but not Frieza's. If Super abided by the laws of real life, yes Goku in Base > pre-BoG SSJ3. But we don't know if it was just a filler scene, and how much thought the scriptwriters and Toriyama put into it.

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

If you're referring to God-off and God-on, I think that's the only theory that would make sense. If they had God-on the whole time, going to SSJ would mean automatically going to SSJ Blue.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What are you smoking? What Dragon Ball fans that started watching or reading Super haven't watched the movies? Super only came to be a reality because of the success of the movies in the first place.

Everyone watching Super has watched the movies.

Are you serious? Dragon Ball is made mainly for kids, not for 30 year olds.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/04/28/ne ... -for-2015/

Toei Animation Begins Production on Dragon Ball Super
Drawn From a Plot By The Brand’s Original Creator, Dragon Ball Super Is The First New Series In
Eighteen Years

TOKYO (April 28, 2015) – Toei Animation has announced production on Dragon Ball Super (Japanese title; tentative for English release), the first all-new Dragon Ball television series to be released in 18 years. Following the recent events of the hit feature film, Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’, Dragon Ball Super will debut in Japan in July 2015.

Reuniting the franchise’s iconic characters, Dragon Ball Super will follow the aftermath of Goku’s fierce battle with Majin Boo, as he attempts to maintain earth’s fragile peace. Overseen by Dragon Ball’s original creator, Akira Toriyama and produced with Fuji Television, Dragon Ball Super will draw on its historic past to create a bold, new universe welcoming to fans and endearing to new viewers.

You don't know that. They put an emphasis on him standing no chance, being defensive and being strategic for a reason. It's not something that usually happens in DBZ to know how successful it would be on others.

Goku said that Piccolo wasn't strong enough to beat Frost, but he was strong enough to weaken him for Vegeta. Piccolo is at a level that he shouldn't be able to see Frost moving if Frost is as strong as you say.

Frost was stronger than Frieza otherwise Goku wouldn't have turned Super Saiyan to fight him unlike Frieza.
OK, I give up. You keep insisting that everything in the manga continuity happened exactly like in the movie as if it's a fact. I'm done with this.

Yeah so without training he's stronger than Frieza with training. If Frost trained he'd become stronger still which is why Goku said that to him.

"Wow, you are stronger than Freeza! You should start training, Freeza did that & got stronger."

Doesn't make sense in my ears.

Understood. So how strong do you think the Base Saiyans/Frost/Piccolo are in the anime?

In the 6-10-15 scale:

• Son Goku/Vegeta - 0.13
  • Super Saiyan - 6.5
    Super Saiyan Blue - 8.13
  Piccolo - 1.5
  
  Frost - 0.017
  • Assault Form - 0.1
    Final Form - 4.2

[Bullza]

Are you serious? Dragon Ball is made mainly for kids, not for 30 year olds.

What....does that have to do with anything? You said that people who start watching/reading Super haven't seen the movies, the new movies. That's obviously not true, that doesn't need any explanation. How you came to think that is beyond me, same with how you replied to it.

Goku said that Piccolo wasn't strong enough to beat Frost, but he was strong enough to weaken him for Vegeta. Piccolo is at a level that he shouldn't be able to see Frost moving if Frost is as strong as you say.

Goku said he could makee him use up some of his stamina which isn't the same as physically weakening him. It doesn't say much for Piccolo that all he's capable of is making Frost use up some of his energy beating him.

He stood rooted in the middle of the ring for most the fight so of course he'd be able to see him. That's not something that's consistent anyway.

You keep insisting that everything in the manga continuity happened exactly like in the movie as if it's a fact.

Because it is a fact until said otherwise. You're supposed to believe the story happened as it did. What's the sense in the writer following up on a story that's radically different to the one that readers have in their mind?

Doesn't make sense in my ears.

Why? All it means is that Frost is naturally stronger than what Frieza is even with training and if Frost were to train then he would get even stronger still.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What....does that have to do with anything? You said that people who start watching/reading Super haven't seen the movies, the new movies. That's obviously not true, that doesn't need any explanation. How you came to think that is beyond me, same with how you replied to it.

Not everyone has seen the movies, and the series isn't made with the idea that everyone who watches/reads Super has seen the movies.


Anyway, I give up entirely. This keeps going on in circles so let's move on.

[ssbgoku]

So if Super Saiyan is equal to Super Saiyan God or stronger seeing as they've trained, I suppose it gives an idea of where some of the others stack up.

Frost was no match at all for Super Saiyan but he was able to withstand some of his attacks which should put him well above SSJ3 level.

Magetta was powerful enough to give Super Saiyan Vegeta some trouble and easily overpowered his Galick Gun but the Final Flash did him in so he should be fairly close to God level.

Super Saiyan Cabba lay a beating on Super Saiyan Vegeta until he decided he didn't want to be beaten around anymore and took a punch to the forehead. Seemingly weaker than Magetta but we'll above Frost.

Where was it stated or shown for ssj to be on par with ssg ?

I mean Of course Whis and oracle fish both admitted that ssj makes them much more powerfull, however whis insisted for them to get stronger in base.
Also Tree and castle comparision fit much better if base goku/vegeta was only ssj3 level or even less as beerus didn't want to fight them and they were scared of him.

post bog pre whis staff:
base - ssj2/Mr. buu
ssj - buutenks/buuhan

post whis staff
base - ssj3 gotenks
ssj - buuhan/base vegito
ssb

post rosat
base - ssj3 gotenks ><utlimate gohan buu arc
ssj - buu arc ssj vegito
ssb

All in all, there shouldn't be any two bases. Just Base sayians getting from weaker then Namek arc frieeza to stronger a bit or on par with ssj3 seems to be right
Later they begin to become even stronger in vase as they tapped into more and more of ssg power, but only little could be used in base. Even as ssj they would be still below ssg, hardly ssj vegito. Finally they regained god power by transforming in ssb.

Ssj or base goku in fight against beerus was only as powerfull due to ssg recessing but still burning inside his body as pointed by beerus to be later never mentioned at all.

Super contains too many contradictions to do a proper power scaling. For example, Goten and Trunks sensed Tagoma's power, but not Frieza's. If Super abided by the laws of real life, yes Goku in Base > pre-BoG SSJ3. But we don't know if it was just a filler scene, and how much thought the scriptwriters and Toriyama put into it.

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

If you're referring to God-off and God-on, I think that's the only theory that would make sense. If they had God-on the whole time, going to SSJ would mean automatically going to SSJ Blue.

Truth. However I believe there is no divine ki base. I mean Divine ki only improved and made base sayians stronger, however in base they were still weak in compare to ssg level, their base would like ssj3. They in ssj would be much more stronger and even more in ssb