Did SS3 Goku surpass Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan?

[Khin]

During the Battle of Gods Arc, it was implied that Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks.

Minute: 19~20
Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”
Significance: Again, Vegeta admits Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but is not content to remain in second place. This may imply Vegeta considers Goku stronger than Gohan/Gotenks at this point, unless by “strongest Saiyan” he means “strongest pure-blooded Saiyan”. Or he just refuses to acknowledge Gohan/Gotenks.

Vegeta considered Goku as the strongest Saiyan, which imply that Goku is stronger than Gotenks and Gohan. Buuut, Vegeta said he's won't be staying as #2 forever. So Vegeta believes he's the #2 strongest Saiyan. Does that mean that Gotenks and Gohan < SS2 Vegeta ? That seems unlikely, so you can one can say the the line just means Goku is the strongest pure blooded Saiyan.

Minute: 5
Context: Goku says how Chi-Chi forced him to get a job.
Goten: “The strongest person in the world might actually be Mum…”
Significance: The implication here is that Goten originally considered Goku to be the strongest in the world, and the Dragon Team subs even include “rather than you…” on to the end of the sentence, but strictly speaking this isn’t explicitly said.

Here, Goten implied that Goku is the strongest in the world.

There's also some other things like Vegeta freaking out when he heard that Goku was defeated by Beerus with 2 blows, and coming to conclusion that no one on earth can beat him, Beerus saying fighting Enraged SS2 Vegeta was more fun than the Saiyan on Kaio's planet, etc.

So what do you think ? Did Goku really surpassed Gotenks and Gohan ?

[dbgtFO]

So what do you think ? Did Goku really surpassed Gotenks and Gohan ?

Eh, it's the anime, so Goku was never weaker than them to begin with.

[apex_pretador]

Yes he did.
We must remember what he said at the end of buu arc when he told dende to heal fat buu. he said he'll train so as to defeat any threat (if it appears due to buu) and super buu was what he meant IMO.

[Speedster]

He was already above them since the Buu arc. Especially in the anime continuity there is zero doubt about it. In the manga continuity too but that's another debate.

[rereboy]

in the manga continuity too but that's another debate.

Not according to Goku himself, but OK.

[Tectorman]

By the BoG arc, I say "yes", mostly due to Master Roshi's line/expression of hope when Vegeta gets enraged. Roshi remarks that Vegeta has surpassed Goku and the nature of the line is that, because of this new development, they might all live to see tomorrow, when previously, having seen all the Z Fighters including Gohan get defeated, it was in doubt.

Let's substitute ranks for names for a moment.

Roshi: "Well, even though I just saw 'Number One Strongest Guy I Know' (Gohan) get hammered and easily at that, 'Third Strongest Guy I Know' (Vegeta) just got stronger than 'Second Strongest Guy I Know' (Goku). So surely we'll live through this, right?"

Versus

Roshi: "Even though 'Second Strongest Guy I Know' (Gohan) has already been defeated, 'Third Strongest Guy I Know' (Vegeta) just got stronger than 'Number One Strongest Guy I Know' (Goku). So now we have a shot."

IMO, the first just doesn't make sense. So I have Goku edging out ahead by BoG.

[Speedster]

in the manga continuity too but that's another debate.

Not according to Goku himself, but OK.

Goku in the innards of base Super Buu was referring to his SSJ2 form. He referred to “WE” meaning the level he and Vegeta were at that moment (SSJ2). It is clear he wasn’t counting his SSJ3 form during that statement because later when kid Buu charged that blast to destroy the earth, Goku didn’t transform to SSJ3 to fire a Kamehameha and try saving the Earth. And again he said “WE can’t stop that”.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That doesn't make any sense. Goku was in Base when he made that statement and they only turned into normal Super Saiyans to conserve energy. Aside from that, Super Saiyan 2 can't even defeat Fat Boo, let alone any of Boo's more powerful forms. Vegeta told Goku he would never merge with him again, so why exactly would Goku refuse to use Super Saiyan 3? He didn't turn Super Saiyan 3 to challenge Kid Boo's Vanishing Ball because the attack was too huge and risky when it'd be better to flee.

Goku tells Vegeta Fusion will be an unnecessary option if they're able to return Boo down to his Fat Boo form. That also shows he wanted no parts of Super Boo because the Fat Boo is the only one (outside of Kid Boo) he can actually defeat. Goku would rather be merged forever than fight Super Boo with his own power. Kid Boo? Goku can take him on without merging.

[LowRyder2005]

in the manga continuity too but that's another debate.

Not according to Goku himself, but OK.

Goku in the innards of base Super Buu was referring to his SSJ2 form. He referred to “WE” meaning the level he and Vegeta were at that moment (SSJ2). It is clear he wasn’t counting his SSJ3 form during that statement because later when kid Buu charged that blast to destroy the earth, Goku didn’t transform to SSJ3 to fire a Kamehameha and try saving the Earth. And again he said “WE can’t stop that”.

Speedster, I'm usually on the side of those who are entertained by your posts, posts which I usually find very thorough and pleasing to read... but here you are just trying to pass an opinion, or rather an inference arbitrarily derived from a fact as the fact itself. No, not only the fact that Goku counting Super Saiyan 3 out of the equation is not "clear" anywhere else in the manga, on the contrary it's apparently very clear that he has no particular qualms about using the form if his life depended on it.

Goku says that he and Vegeta can't stop Super Buu "like that/ like they are at that very moment" but that they can top him with Fusion and that's it. Not "we are no match for him as Super Saiyan 2".
Therefore, at that moment, it seems like Toriyama wants us to believe that Goku can't stop Super Buu without fusing. That's all there is to it. If it's true or not is, of course, a matter of interpretation.

That being said, you're of course free to interpret it as Goku wanting to spare Vegeta's from humiliation, thinking that he needed an extra power boost to completely wipe out Super Buu's existence even if he happened to be stronger, that Goku actually referred to Buu's "strenght" as his absorption technique and had seen Fusion as a warranty of finishing the fight quickly and minimizing the risks, and yadda yadda yadda; there are literally half a dozen of plausible, possible (though, strictly speaking, they'd be unmentioned and relatively arbitrary) narrative reasons you can establish in your head if you think of Goku as the top dog in the manga.
Regarding the Super Vanishing Ball, even following your line of reasoning it'd be extremely out of character for Goku to sacrifice the entire planet, and possibly the remaining survivors and his sons just because he doesn't want to go Super Saiyan 3. Goku most likely being unable to stop the ball the Vanishing Ball (or at least thinking he could not) even as a SS3 is the most likely conclusion.

[rereboy]

in the manga continuity too but that's another debate.

Not according to Goku himself, but OK.

Goku in the innards of base Super Buu was referring to his SSJ2 form. He referred to “WE” meaning the level he and Vegeta were at that moment (SSJ2). It is clear he wasn’t counting his SSJ3 form during that statement because later when kid Buu charged that blast to destroy the earth, Goku didn’t transform to SSJ3 to fire a Kamehameha and try saving the Earth. And again he said “WE can’t stop that”.

You are bending logic, arguments and yourself out of shape so it that kind of fits with Goku being stronger than Gohan. I don't agree with any of that. Dragon Ball is some times inconsistent, but it's pretty much always straightforward. Goku said that he and Vegeta wouldn't be able to take on Super Buu (that Gohan had easily taken on), and there's no need for anything clearer than that. Claiming that Goku was only talking about SSJ2, like that makes any kind of sense, is, imo, a biased argument that is more concerned with finding arguments to justify the desired conclusion than just following the existing arguments to a logical conclusion.

As for Super, Gohan and Gotenks are basically nerfed in it, with the implied explanation that they are weak now because they don't train. They even prefer to have Piccolo instead of Gohan in a tournament, which just goes to show how much power Gohan lost in Super due to not being interested in training.

[sintzu]

Gotenks is a fusion so maybe he's not comparing himself to him because he's only one person and Gotenks is 2.

During the Buu arc Gohan's mystic powers put him leagues above everyone else but in his base he was weaker than Goku and Vegeta in theirs so maybe he's talking about his base being the 2nd strongest.

[Kaboom]

It'd be one thing if Toei's writers presented that Goku had become the strongest in the 5 years since Majin Boo's defeat (even though him doing so and still being weaker than Freeza in base would be a head-scratcher). But the problem is that even since the original animated Pure Boo arc back in Z (and most recently in Kai), they've tried to present this weird revisionist history where he was the strongest one all along throughout the Majin Boo arc, despite many things preventing that from being possible. To even make it plausible, you'd have to erase Goku's line admitting inferiority to Evil Boo, and completely remove SS2 and SS3 from Gotenks.

Having Goku become the strongest some years after the Boo arc? Tricky but doable. Goku already being strongest during the Boo arc? Simply not possible, unless the manga undergoes some serious rewrites or Toriyama offers direct "word of god" saying so.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Also, Vegeta's statement is derived from his speech summing up his rivalry with Goku. I mean, besides the fact that the chapter is titled "Vegeta and Kakarot", the entire context of the speech is based on how different the two are, and how Vegeta has reached a point where he respects Goku. Instead of just reading the speech and enjoying Vegeta's development, some would rather assume it's nothing more than a power statement instead.

I'll admit that Goku is portrayed as the strongest in Super, but in the Boo saga? Many things imply the opposite.

[Speedster]

Therefore, at that moment, it seems like Toriyama wants us to believe that Goku can't stop Super Buu without fusing. That's all there is to it. If it's true or not is, of course, a matter of interpretation.

It is a contrived plot device to create tension imo. Similarly Vegeta after getting revived he had his health restored yet he went against kid Buu to fight him in base while he was trying to buy time for the Genki Dama. The audience is expected to feel the tension the Genki Dama being completed in time and Vegeta surviving. There is no much rationale in which forms they use or refer to now, is there?

That being said, you're of course free to interpret it as Goku wanting to spare Vegeta's from humiliation, thinking that he needed an extra power boost to completely wipe out Super Buu's existence even if he happened to be stronger, that Goku actually referred to Buu's "strength" as his absorption technique and had seen Fusion as a warranty of finishing the fight quickly and minimizing the risks, and yadda yadda yadda; there are literally half a dozen of plausible, possible (though, strictly speaking, they'd be unmentioned and relatively arbitrary) narrative reasons you can establish in your head if you think of Goku as the top dog in the manga.

All I said is that Goku wasn’t referring to his SSJ3 form when that statement was made. I didn't analyse the reasons for him doing so. One of those reasons may have indeed been to downplay its importance and spare Vegeta the humiliation as you said.

Regarding the Super Vanishing Ball, even following your line of reasoning it'd be extremely out of character for Goku to sacrifice the entire planet, and possibly the remaining survivors and his sons just because he doesn't want to go Super Saiyan 3. Goku most likely being unable to stop the ball the Vanishing Ball (or at least thinking he could not) even as a SS3 is the most likely conclusion.

OK, so SSJ3 Goku can’t stop the blast of kid Buu at that time. So should we say then that at that time kid Buu>>SSJ3 Goku like Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku was supposed to be earlier? And that then Goku rose to kid Buu’s level? Maybe! That’s another possibility too. Goku could have gotten stronger by pushing his SSJ3 to new heights for his fight with kid Buu.

In Super we had SSG Goku increasing his power against Beerus finding new and new heights in the form. Don't forget that in the Buu arc, SSJ3 was a new form to Goku – he even stated he didn't have much time to practice it when he first transformed that was why it took him so much time. b)Additionally it may have been the case of Goku simply improving before/during the fight as a result of his previous fights or being pushed during the fight. Like Hit did against SSJB Goku in Super ep.39. Vegeta confirmed that this (improving during the battle) is a Saiyan trait and Krillin also said that this was exactly Goku’s winning pattern.

In the Freeza arc we had such type of improvement too. After his Zenkai with Recoome Vegeta went from below Recoome to somewhere below base Goku. Possibly went from 30K to 60K given that Goku was handing him Jeice but he was the one to take on Ginyu. Yet after his fight with Captain Ginyu (in Goku’s body) he took a nap and now low and behold he was able to challenge first form Freeza! Some think “but it is further boost from his earlier Zenkai against Recoome with delayed onset”. Headcanon! That was never hinted to be the case. And what about Krillin? He kept improving during the arc too. And some bring the headcanon “but Krillin may had also some boost with delayed onset he was able to tap into due to his previous power up from Guru”. Whatever it was (delayed onset of a boost or tapping further into a boost or improvement/pushing limits) what stops SSJ3 from reaching higher levels with a similar logic? Saying it is impossible it a hypocritical double standard.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku said Vegeta's energy wasn't fully restored after being revived. That's why he never transformed when he attacked Kid Boo.

You can just say Kid Boo's Vanishing Ball is too much for Goku to handle and there'd be no issue. Piccolo's Makankousappo is too much for Raditz to handle, but we know Raditz can kick the crap outta him under normal circumstances.

[Speedster]

You can just say Kid Boo's Vanishing Ball is too much for Goku to handle and there'd be no issue. Piccolo's Makankousappo is too much for Raditz to handle, but we know Raditz can kick the crap outta him under normal circumstances.

Radditz was constrained and defenceless. We didn't see an energy beam clash there. And why do you rule out then that the reason Goku said they had no chance against Super Buu was because he would produce a similar amplified attack like kid Buu. As a matter of fact before Goku cut Buutenks in half with the Kienzan, Buutenks was about to do the same thing.

Goku said Vegeta's energy wasn't fully restored after being revived. That's why he never transformed when he attacked Kid Boo.

He said "as your alive again you should have enough energy".

[rereboy]

Radditz was constrained and defenceless.

Is that why Radditz barely managed to dodge the first attack and even admitted that if it had hit he would have been done?

[Speedster]

Radditz was constrained and defenceless.

Is that why Radditz barely managed to dodge the first attack and even admitted that it had been a close one?

So do the characters have to take the attacks head on or spend energy to destroy them instead of just dodging them?

[rereboy]

Radditz was constrained and defenceless.

Is that why Radditz barely managed to dodge the first attack and even admitted that it had been a close one?

So do the characters have to take the attacks head on or spend energy to destroy them instead of just dodging them?

If you want to argue that the attack wasn't too much for him to handle, yeah.

[Speedster]

If you want to argue that the attack wasn't too much for him to handle, yeah.

Radditz dodged the attack because that was the best option. As simple as this. Assuming he knew a half decent ki attack he could produce an energy beam of his own too and have a beam struggle. Goku against kid Buu didn't have the option to dodge. But he had the option to fire a Kamehameha which IS an amplified attack and constantly portrayed as the most powerful -- see also Cell choosing it over the others.