Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Neon Z]

I feel like referring to the theory as "two base forms" is kind of misleading and implies something complicated, as if Goku has some new transformation that's still his base form but stronger. It's not nearly so tricky. The idea is really just that Goku can choose to boost whatever form he's using with his god-ki. He would need Super Saiyan to channel all of it (which gets him SSGSS), but he can use it in his base form too.

The main issue is that Super makes it clear in the RoF arc that Goku and Vegeta only start using God Ki when they go SSJB - even though they show large powers in base form too there. The two base theories could be used to make Piccolo's power make more sense considering previous precedent, but there's nothing in the show itself indicating that it's a concept that's being used by Toriyama or the script writers.

I don't think it's even necessary to explain away the power of the Universe 6 fighters either. The whole point of using another universe would be dodging the "Namek Saga Freeza is the strongest in the universe" statement that Toriyama seems to want to keep around (with the exceptions to that rule always having specific explanations).

[supercat]

I'm starting to think that there is too great of an emphasis on trying to pinpoint a specific explanation behind a particular character's power and/or improvements. As I've mentioned several times in other posts, I feel like there has been plenty of nonchalantly thrown out strength increases as well as random introductions of characters who could effortlessly trump even the greatest of milestones reached by their predecessors thus far; for the sake of keeping things simple and straightforward, I just attribute Universe 6's roster of powerhouses and Piccolo's sudden improvements as more examples of that. Chasing after explanations that are likely nonexistent and trying to cram everyone into some watered down power scale sort of saps the fun out of things in my opinion.

SSJ is likely parallel to SSG as some have speculated. If Base Goku was in fact suppressing his SSG ki against Frost, it would mean that Frost, along with the other Universe 6 fighters are flat out weaklings; quite unlikely by this point of the series. Given the show's track record, I'm far more inclined to believe that Frost and Piccolo are now among those who could give even the strongest of Buus a nasty thrashing.

[Kaboom]

The main issue is that Super makes it clear in the RoF arc that Goku and Vegeta only start using God Ki when they go SSJB - even though they show large powers in base form too there.

So maybe they can still be sensed while only using their god-ki in part, until it fully takes over when they use all of it via SSGSS.

But seriously and in general, Super hasn't bothered to explain any of this. So there's nothing wrong with such fan-theories, and no need to act as if they're dumb or invalid.

[Bullza]

Maybe were just over thinking things? If Goku said that Super Saiyan Blue was "a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" then before he transformed he would simply be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

Base = Super Saiyan God.

It fits with Base Goku stopping Beerus' attack, surviving unrestrained attacks from Beerus, him being able to fight Beerus in the episode a few weeks back, him being strong enough to fight a powered up Frieza, the image in the Super manga, the Saiyan Beyond God thing in the game.

When he fought Beerus it was his Super Saiyan form that was as strong as Super Saiyan God but maybe all that training they did with Whis got Base to that level.

It'd create some other confusions like why Cabba was that strong but maybe he's just written to be that strong.

Arguments can be made for anything really.

[DragonHermit]

The actual phrase was "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Power of Super Saiyan God just means God Ki.

Super Saiyan Blue = Super Saiyan + God Ki.

If you don't have enough God Ki in base (Goku v. Beerus/U6) you will turn into normal Super Saiyan.

If you have enough God Ki in base (Saiyan beyond God/RoF) you will turn into Super Saiyan Blue.

[Bullza]

According to Herms on the Fact checker Goku said

"This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."

And then he had this to say

"After absorbing SSG into his base form in the Battle of Gods arc, Goku transforms into what he describes as the "Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the power of Super Saiyan God""

I'm not sure if the "into his base form" bit might be part assumption though because the link Herms has there just has Toriyama saying that Goku had absorbed Gods power and made it his own. Whether that means in base or Super Saiyan or even something else I don't know.

I also don't know how ordinary Super Saiyan is supposed to tie into it because that should still be Goku with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan but it's obviously not the same nor does it have Godly Ki.

[LightBing]

No pressure points are mentioned in the recent manga chapter. That makes hard to guess Hit's actual power, he took down Vegeta with the time-skip and brute force.
A clear difference from the anime.

Another one is Vegeta compared to Cabba. Like the anime they're at the same level in base, in Super Saiyan is harder to guess. Vegeta seems pretty relaxed in the little exchange, that still isn't enough to make any conclusions. Altought I'm leaning for Vegeta's advantage.

[Bullza]

Hit attacking the vital spots were a main part if his fights, I'm surprised they left that out. Was that not in Toriyama's plot outline? It was a lot more I treating than just a normal attack.

The Super Saiyan Vegeta and Cabba fight was way too brief to make much of it but if they're equal in Base then they should be equal as Super Saiyan.

I'd be fine with just saying they're equal it seems simplest and there isn't too much to say otherwise. If Vegeta is stronger though it would simply be because he mastered the form.

[LightBing]

Hit attacking the vital spots were a main part if his fights, I'm surprised they left that out. Was that not in Toriyama's plot outline? It was a lot more I treating than just a normal attack.

The Super Saiyan Vegeta and Cabba fight was way too brief to make much of it but if they're equal in Base then they should be equal as Super Saiyan.

I'd be fine with just saying they're equal it seems simplest and there isn't too much to say otherwise. If Vegeta is stronger though it would simply be because he mastered the form.

Maybe Mr.Toriyama didn't elaborate, no way of knowing. This happened before, Botamo's ability goes unexplained in the manga, while in the anime Jaco offers an half-assed possibility (transporting attacks to another dimension).

Personally, I think there's nothing in the script about it and the anime writers decided to add it. Maybe to spice up Hit? No idea... It does have implications, since with the idea of the vital spots, Hit is more likely to be thought of as weaker by the viewers than Vegeta and Goku.

Can't wait to see if the x10 Kaioken is there or not.

[Neon Z]

Hit attacking the vital spots were a main part if his fights, I'm surprised they left that out. Was that not in Toriyama's plot outline? It was a lot more I treating than just a normal attack.

I think it makes sense. Later on it's a plot point that Hit wasn't fighting 100% since he couldn't use killing techniques in the battle. If you think about it, that clashes with him attacking vital spots in order to hurt Vegeta and Goku.

[ZombieVito]

Hit attacking the vital spots were a main part if his fights, I'm surprised they left that out. Was that not in Toriyama's plot outline? It was a lot more I treating than just a normal attack.

The Super Saiyan Vegeta and Cabba fight was way too brief to make much of it but if they're equal in Base then they should be equal as Super Saiyan.

I'd be fine with just saying they're equal it seems simplest and there isn't too much to say otherwise. If Vegeta is stronger though it would simply be because he mastered the form.

Not really. Vegeta wrecked Cabba very badly.

He was obviously weakened a good deal.

[Bullza]

Wrecked him? In their Super Saiyan Battle all that happened was Cabba attacked Vegeta for a bit, put some pressure on him and then when he went to punch him in the noggin a wave of Ki came out of nowhere and the punch did no damage to him.

Then he went Super Saiyan Blue and one shot him.

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta turned Super Saiyan and beat Cabba up. When he turned Super Saiyan he was already weaker and Vegeta was just toying at that point.

[LowRyder2005]

I feel like referring to the theory as "two base forms" is kind of misleading and implies something complicated, as if Goku has some new transformation that's still his base form but stronger. It's not nearly so tricky. The idea is really just that Goku can choose to boost whatever form he's using with his god-ki. He would need Super Saiyan to channel all of it (which gets him SSGSS), but he can use it in his base form too.

It explains why Goku and Vegeta's regular SS forms are still used and distinct from SSGSS, it prevents other random folks who don't use god-ki (Piccolo, Frost, Magetta, Cabbe, etc) from unnecessarily being up in the godly power tiers, it explains how there's a big difference between Goku's "base" and SSGSS strengths despite him still not being close to Beerus even in the latter form (disregarding Super and its sloppy inconsistency on that front), and on and on. It's an easy idea that fills in a lot of holes.

Case in point.
Moreover, it's really hard to argue the existence of such a giant boost on Piccolo's part that could possibly put him even at Super Saiyan 3 Goku (not even mentioning Base Vegito) tier without undermining the entire narrative continuity in the Buu saga - or even continuity in general, as Piccolo trains for six months with a Gohan who is still, by his own account, trying to reach his old strenght.
It stands to reason that Piccolo is essentially the same as before or slightly stronger; then you can create a framework through feats and power-scaling.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Battle of Gods Arc

Whis: ??
Beerus: ??

Son Goku: 110,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 5,500,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 22,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 55,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan [With Vegeta, Son Gohan, Trunks and Son Goten’s energy]: 10,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan God|Super Saiyan [After keeping god power]: 200,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 5,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 10,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 2 [Mutation]: 5,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan [Base|Super Saiyan]: 600,000,000,000

Good Majin Boo: 20,000,000,000

Piccolo: 3,750,000,000

Trunks [Super Saiyan]: 2,500,000,000
Son Goten [Super Saiyan]: 2,500,000,000

Artificial Human No. 18: 300,000,000

Tenshinhan: 90,000

Resurrection F Arc

Vados: ??
Champa: ??

Freeza [First form]: 400,000
-- After 4 months of training: 2,000,000,000,000
-- Final form: 80,000,000,000,000
-- Golden form: 540,000,000,000,000
-- Weakened after fighting Son Goku: 450,000,000,000,000

Son Goku: 100,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 500,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 500,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan: 12,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 600,000,000,000

Ginyu [Inside Tagoma’s body]: 120,000,000,000

Gotenks [Super Saiyan]: 50,000,000,000

Tagoma: 20,000
-- After 4 months of training: 12,000,000,000

Piccolo: 4,000,000,000

Tenshinhan: 100,000

Kuririn: 40,000

Shisami: 30,000

Sorbet: 1,800

Master Roshi: 400
-- Full power form: 1,000

Freeza’s soldiers: 500

Jaco: 500

Champa Arc

Beerus: ??
Champa: ??

Son Goku: 120,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 300,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 600,000,000,000,000
-- Kaioken x 10: 6,000,000,000,000,000

Hit: 600,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 120,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 300,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 600,000,000,000,000

Cabba: 120,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 300,000,000,000,000

Auta Magetta: 100,000,000,000,000
-- Full power: 200,000,000,000,000

Frost [First form]: 80,000,000,000,000
-- Assault form: 120,000,000,000,000
-- Final form: 180,000,000,000,000

Piccolo: 150,000,000,000,000

Botamo: 50,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan: 600,000,000,000

Good Boo: 20,000,000,000

Monaka: 1

[LowRyder2005]

Gohan is far, far, far too strong, especially compared to Buu, whom you'd need to have around the same tier of whatever Gohan's level is at the time. When he's training with Piccolo he still says that, although more powerful than his ROF's self, he's still in the process of getting re-trained from scratch (to presumably gain the power he had lost back).

He may be at 70% of his former power during the Buu Saga at the time of the tourney (having re-unlocked his Chou form again) and be at some very low percentage at the time of ROF, with the added impairment of being able to use only SS, which brings him around Buu's strenght (or below, given how Goku and Vegeta agree that Buu and Uub would be the strongest candidates even before Vegeta is made aware of Gohan's lack of fighting spirit).

And... Piccolo jumping from 4 billions to 150,000 billions?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I like your levels. I'd change Base Goku having that much of an advantage over Final Form Freeza, though. They were practically equal, and it was stated that he only surpassed him when he became Super Saiyan Blue.

[Bullza]

So what exactly contradicts Base Goku/Vegeta from being as strong as Super Saiyan God again?

I'm all over the place in where to actually place them but it's not impossible that they could be that strong is it?

[Neon Z]

(or below, given how Goku and Vegeta agree that Buu and Uub would be the strongest candidates even before Vegeta is made aware of Gohan's lack of fighting spirit).

Vegeta actually questions Goku about Buu, but Goku seems to think that the current Buu could still get stronger with anger and his choice seems to be based on that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So what exactly contradicts Base Goku/Vegeta from being as strong as Super Saiyan God again?

I'm all over the place in where to actually place them but it's not impossible that they could be that strong is it?

Only thing I can think of is the Whis castle statement. That could just be Whis talking about the Saiyans in comparison to their (His and Beers) God levels, though.