Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Hugo Boss wrote:That's not really a plot hole. Cell nearly died and regenerated. That's why he powered up. Whatever energy it took to regenerate is compensated by his Saiyan's cells overflowing with energy.
I'll try to explain:
Goku blows Cell's upper half
Cell regenerates, loses energy
Eats senzu, gains energy back
Then:
Cell explodes, only a small part survives
Needs a shit ton of energy to regenerate
Immediately appears back full power/energy
He shouldn't have any energy left. Zenkai only kicks in when your energy is 100%.
The only explanation I could find was that, just like Freeza, Cell goes back to full power when he transforms into his next form. Vegeta, Piccolo, and Gohan beat Freeza to a pulp, and when he transforms to his next form he is usually healed and back to full power.
"The life is the hardest video games of ever. Because you have only one life and the powers are kinda lame. And sometimes a stage takes years"
"The life is a game, the objective of the game is trying to find the objective of the game, and then, finish the game"
--by Ranely Jr
I don't see why you think the regeneration technique requires a lot of energy to be used. In Cell's example, he took damage and lost energy. Ok. Then, he regenerates. He has practically the same condition. Final Flash's moment is even more clear, because Cell's power didn't decrease a bit. When he is reduced to a core, I suppose he is almost dead, he has very low energy, then regenerates and gains a lot of energy back.
Hugo Boss wrote:I don't see why you think the regeneration technique requires a lot of energy to be used. In Cell's example, he took damage and lost energy. Ok. Then, he regenerates. He has practically the same condition. Final Flash's moment is even more clear, because Cell's power didn't decrease a bit. When he is reduced to a core, I suppose he is almost dead, he has very low energy, then regenerates and gains a lot of energy back.
See, the problem is this "gains a lot of energy back". Where did it come from? That's why I have this theory about him being healed when he transforms, like Freeza. And I think Piccolo is the one who says that regeneration costs energy. Also, when Freeza rips Nail's arm and he regenerates, Freeza says Nail's power dropped.
"The life is the hardest video games of ever. Because you have only one life and the powers are kinda lame. And sometimes a stage takes years"
"The life is a game, the objective of the game is trying to find the objective of the game, and then, finish the game"
--by Ranely Jr
The energy comes from the Saiyans' ability to get stronger once healed from fatal injuries. I don't recal Piccolo ever saying the regeneration takes a toll on him, the energy gets lower due to damage, right? In Nail's example, Freeza damaged him badly, his power dropped in that moment. The confusion happens because they tell the energy drops after regeneration is used. Actually, they don't recover the energy lost.
I always figured the lack of death for Tenshenhan's Mafuba practicing was kinda odd but I suppose excuses can be made, there is also Number 17 saying he heard Goku's voice before at the end of the manga is also weird given their lack of meeting but for me the most baffling is the lack of Boo in Trunk's timeline and the weaker/more cruel versions of the Androids.
Ohms wrote:Gohan, Trunks and Muten Roshi were around though and I find it odd that the Kaioshin of that time wouldn't try and stop the androids.
To awaken Majin Buu, Babidi used the amount of energy stolen from three SSj2, and Gohan and Trunks are not even near at that level. Then, Muten.. seriously?
Kaioshin supervises the universe, not the land, which is a planet among billions and billions. Also, why he not intervened even against Freeza?
I know it'd take a lot more energy to revive Boo but it'd be a nice start, also Babidi wasn't expecting anywhere near so much energy, he was amazed by the amount Gohan's Ki helped restore Boo. Also Kaioshin wasn't actually witness to Freeza's rule as far as we know but if he had visited earth in Trunk's timeline he'd have seen the androids destruction first hand.
Ohms wrote:I know it'd take a lot more energy to revive Boo but it'd be a nice start, also Babidi wasn't expecting anywhere near so much energy, he was amazed by the amount Gohan's Ki helped restore Boo. Also Kaioshin wasn't actually witness to Freeza's rule as far as we know but if he had visited earth in Trunk's timeline he'd have seen the androids destruction first hand.
Is not a good start, because besides them there was no one else from which they could get energy (the planet was almost uninhabited). Already among the SSJ of Namek and SSFP there is a HUGE difference, and SSJ2 is much higher than FP. Babidi is surprised only by Gohan SSJ2's strength.
Kaioshin doesn't kill Freeza because he is not a real threat to the universe, contrary to Boo. And is the same for the Androids.
There is no one plot hole.
Oh, you've barely even scratched the surface. I'm making a list of things that make no sense from the beginning to the end, and I've got almost 70. And that's just from the beginning of DB to the King Piccolo saga! When I get to DBZ there'll be waaaaaay more inconsistencies...
"All of you. All of you must have KILL all the SEASONS!" -Dough (Tenshinhan), Speedy Dub of Movie 9.
"My opinion of Norihito's Sumitomo's new score is... well, very mixed. The stuff that's good is pretty darn good, but the stuff that's bad makes elevator music sound like Jerry freaking Goldsmith." -Kenisu
Gorou wrote:Kaioshin doesn't kill Freeza because he is not a real threat to the universe, contrary to Boo. And is the same for the Androids.
There is no one plot hole.
Honestly, I don't even believe Supreme Kai is stronger than Freeza. Maybe his early forms, sure, but he was scared of characters like PuiPui who were maybe Ginyu Force levels of strength at best.
DHM211 wrote:Speaking of Frieza and plot holes.....
Spoiler:
That was 100% filler by Toei. Toriyama's version of Hell is different because no version of hell was provided in the manga and Toriyama most likely had no idea that Toei already created their own version of what Hell was like before he provided his version in Resurrection F.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Gorou wrote:Kaioshin doesn't kill Freeza because he is not a real threat to the universe, contrary to Boo. And is the same for the Androids.
There is no one plot hole.
Honestly, I don't even believe Supreme Kai is stronger than Freeza. Maybe his early forms, sure, but he was scared of characters like PuiPui who were maybe Ginyu Force levels of strength at best.
There's anecdotal evidence that Babi-di's men can't be sensed at all, leaving it likely that Kaioushin was just fearful of Pui Pui due to the reputation that Babi-di only recruits the strongest, and not from anything he was actually sensing.
I take it that Kaioshin was fearful for Vegeta taking the bait to fight Pui-Pui, because he hadn't revealed his power yet. Kaioshin didn't know that Vegeta would defeat him quite easily, despite his energy being worth Dabura and Babidi's notice.
DHM211 wrote:Speaking of Frieza and plot holes.....
Spoiler:
That was 100% filler by Toei. Toriyama's version of Hell is different because no version of hell was provided in the manga and Toriyama most likely had no idea that Toei already created their own version of what Hell was like before he provided his version in Resurrection F.
That doesn't stop it from being a plot-hole in the anime.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DHM211 wrote:Speaking of Frieza and plot holes.....
Spoiler:
That was 100% filler by Toei. Toriyama's version of Hell is different because no version of hell was provided in the manga and Toriyama most likely had no idea that Toei already created their own version of what Hell was like before he provided his version in Resurrection F.
That screenshot was taken from Kai, whats supposedly considered canon these days. If it wasn't intended to be part of the new canon, they most likely would have cut it out IMO.
DHM211 wrote:That screenshot was taken from Kai, whats supposedly considered canon these days. If it wasn't intended to be part of the new canon, they most likely would have cut it out IMO.
That's not really how Kai works, though. It's impossible to remove some of the filler content as it's integrated into the show (particularly in the earlier parts), and the Boo arc in particular was a rush/hack job with little-to-no thought given about canonicity.
Reducing things down to "Kai is the canon!" is a gross over-generalization and can't stand alone as a statement without extreme clarification on points like this.
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