Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

So with this ep I now do my lunacy levels.

Omni King
Omni Guards
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJBKK10 Goku
Hit Time Skip Max
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
SSJ Gohan
True Frost
Assault Form/Base Goku/Base Vegeta/Googeta (For now)
Tired Frost
Piccolo/Base Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Boo
1st Form Frost
Botamo

This is just insane and I'm a Piccolo fanboy. I prefer to use the two base theory to be honest.

[dbzfan7]

So with this ep I now do my lunacy levels.

Omni King
Omni Guards
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJBKK10 Goku
Hit Time Skip Max
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
SSJ Gohan
True Frost
Assault Form/Base Goku/Base Vegeta/Googeta (For now)
Tired Frost
Piccolo/Base Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Boo
1st Form Frost
Botamo

This is just insane and I'm a Piccolo fanboy. I prefer to use the two base theory to be honest.

It is pretty insane, but so was GT. Not that surprised. I could switch it around a bit and put Gotenks above Piccolo and Base Gohan. Maybe tired frost, but that's it. That's about as lenient I could get on my solo opinion (Which in no way is right/Tru Canonz lolz, and yes I have to say that or else I may be attacked). I have no intention of debating power levels, as I've seen the chaos it brings here. I have no interest butting heads on my impression, which is merely my impression, and nothing else.

[supercat]

So with this ep I now do my lunacy levels.

Omni King
Omni Guards
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJBKK10 Goku
Hit Time Skip Max
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
SSJ Gohan
True Frost
Assault Form/Base Goku/Base Vegeta/Googeta (For now)
Tired Frost
Piccolo/Base Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Boo
1st Form Frost
Botamo

This is just insane and I'm a Piccolo fanboy. I prefer to use the two base theory to be honest.

Why do people have such a hard time accepting the fact that Buu, along with the top contenders of his entire arc are now nothing more than mere fodders? I don't recall there being a problem with 17 and 18 towering over Frieza.

[ZombieVito]

Because it hasn't been stated.

I'll be happy as fuck if Piccolo is stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or even Mister Boo but that hasn't happened yet.

[Bullza]

The main thing that I'm curious about now is how the power of Base, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue relate to each other.

It would appear as though turning Super Saiyan still makes them 50x stronger going by the Cabba fight but how much stronger still is Super Saiyan Blue?

If Base is just a fraction of Super Saiyan Blue's strenght then why was Goku able to put up a decent fight against Beerus? It's make Super Saiyan God/Base less than 1% as strong as Beerus and that ain't right.

Also I'm fine with Piccolo being weaker than Buu. He did well against Frost but they emphasised he had no chance and he fought on the defensive, he doesn't need to be above Vegito or Gotenks.

[pacz360]

So with this ep I now do my lunacy levels.

Omni King
Omni Guards
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJBKK10 Goku
Hit Time Skip Max
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
SSJ Gohan
True Frost
Assault Form/Base Goku/Base Vegeta/Googeta (For now)
Tired Frost
Piccolo/Base Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Boo
1st Form Frost
Botamo

This is just insane and I'm a Piccolo fanboy. I prefer to use the two base theory to be honest.

Why do people have such a hard time accepting the fact that Buu, along with the top contenders of his entire arc are now nothing more than mere fodders? I don't recall there being a problem with 17 and 18 towering over Frieza.

Exactly people need to stop acting like buu and others from the saga are shit also acting u6 fighters can't be this strong is like these guy never learn from gt or freeza lately.

[supercat]

Because it hasn't been stated.

I'll be happy as fuck if Piccolo is stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or even Mister Boo but that hasn't happened yet.

So?

The absence of any statements pertaining to Piccolo surpassing Buu, Gotenks, or whoever could very well be attributed to the fact that surpassing said fighters is no longer an impressive feat and is therefore not even worth mentioning.

I mean GT Base Goku presumably started the series off several tiers stronger than his SSJ3 incarnation from the Buu arc; this is just an example of how absurd power increases can be.

[ZombieVito]

Because it hasn't been stated.

I'll be happy as fuck if Piccolo is stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or even Mister Boo but that hasn't happened yet.

So?

The absence of any statements pertaining to Piccolo surpassing Buu, Gotenks, or whoever could very well be attributed to the fact that surpassing said fighters is no longer an impressive feat and is therefore not even worth mentioning.

I mean GT Base Goku presumably started the series off several tiers stronger than his SSJ3 incarnation from the Buu arc; this is just an example of how absurd power increases can be.

Nah is still don't buy it. Not only it was never stated but Goku was going to take Boo over Piccolo when Gohan requested to go to the U6/U7 tournament. This alone proves he's under Boo still.

[dbzfan7]

I'm gonna keep my own impressions, but give it the same GT nonsense pass of that's just how things are. Makes things a lot easier to swallow when I give it the same pass. What I am curious of is if Googeta has SSJ Blue power too. Anyone remember when Gero drained Piccolo's ki, but Piccolo was still stronger. We could have a similar situation.

[Bullza]

Krillin held his own against Frieza by being defensive so it's kinda like that...in a way.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Omni King
Omni Guards
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJBKK10 Goku
Hit Time Skip Max
SSJB Goku/Vegeta/Hit
SSJ Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
Magetta
True Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form/Base Goku/Base Vegeta/Base Cabba
1st Form Frost
Botamo
Base Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Boo

[Bullza]

Oh yeah! When Piccolo went up against Frost he said "You're gonna fight me in that form, feel free to hold back".

Now even if he meant Frost's first form he should still be stronger than Frieza's first form who he previously stood no chance against even alongside the others.

If he's confident enough to go up against any form of Frost he should at least be stronger than Frieza's first form.

And he could still be weaker than Buu.

[Sonicjamareiz]

Why is Botamo almost always at the bottom of the U6 power scale when he haven't displayed any ounce of power at all to determine his strength in Super.

[LowRyder2005]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7WG7PWaLg8

For anyone who hasn't seen the fight yet.

So, between Gotenks feat vs. Copy-Vegeta and Goku's recent base form feat vs. Beerus? I have to disregard the latter as less impressive regardless of the aura. I see no reason for Beerus being technically "bloodlusted" in the faux fight, while I can see Copy-Vegeta wanting to deal with Gotenks as soon as possible.
Therefore, this should in theory settle the debate about the Base Form being at least around anime SS3 Goku (>> Gotenks) or anime Kid Buu but not as strong as the Red God form.

However, I do believe that the latest episode ends up proving most definitely that the Base Forms are not God tier if you compare Goku vs. minimum-percentage Beerus to SS3 Gotenks vs. "Beyond God + ROSAT training" Base Vegeta. While SS3 Gotenks is decidingly at disadvantage, Base Form Copy Vegeta has to arguably put at least some effort to fend him off and we have little to no reason to believe he was restraining, given how his shtick is, well, being evil.

SS Goku/ SS Vegeta (U6 Arc) >>>>>>>> SS3 Goku (BOG) >>> Base Goku (fully powered; U6 Arc) > Base Goku (putting some effort; vs. Final Form Freeza) ~ Chou Gohan (Buu Saga) >= SS Goku/ SS Vegeta (vs. Cabba; still taking it easy) >> SS Cabba >> SS3 Gotenks >= Mr. Buu >= Magetta (endurance aside) >>> SS Gohan (U6 Saga; simply following the notion that he's still stronger than Piccolo) > Final Form Frost >> Assault Frost >> Piccolo > Base Goku (U6 Arc; "I'm a slow starter" + "I'm saving energy for the next fights") >>> First Form Frost >> Base Gohan (*tentative placement*) > Botamo

I think having SS Goku around Base Vegito right now would make most sense in a conservative estimation.

[Bullza]

I was thinking about that Beerus 10% line.

Would it not be likely that when that line was written is was done to go hand in hand with the 70% comment from the movie (maybe even the 6/10/15 comment)?

And unbeknownst to the Toei staff Toriyama has pretty much retconned Beerus' power completely now for him to still be stronger than SSJB Goku Kaioken x10.

So simply put the 10% line is just as outdated as the 70% line. Which should mean it shouldn't be taken into consideration either even if it is part of the same show.

It was true for Pre-Retcon Beerus but not Post-Retcon Beerus.

[LowRyder2005]

Beerus remarks almost immediately that SS2 Vegeta is too weak to even be considered a potential SS God candidate, so it doesn't make sense for Vegeta to be 5% of Beerus' true power anyway with, say, SS God Goku at around 6% (to make it fit with SS Blue + training + KK = 90%).

You can have Beerus implying that "it has been a long time since I've nearly used 10% of my true power"... and he still didn't even against Vegeta. He uses nearly 10% of his "true" power against SS God Goku and that's it. "Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains however improbable...", etc.

When he's training with Piccolo he still says that, although more powerful than his ROF's self, he's still in the process of getting re-trained from scratch (to presumably gain the power he had lost back). He may be at 70% of his former power during the Buu Saga at the time of the tourney (having re-unlocked his Chou form again).

I don't think he has that potential unleashed state anymore. Looked like Base Gohan vs Piccolo to me. I wondered if he did considering his new hair style, but it turns out just like Krillin, he reverted right back to the BOG look. I think he's still the base/SSJ user at the moment. Especially considering he's still being retrained. Also his eyebrows in the fight look more like base than Ultimate, which even Super shows a difference with.

Gohan had the "ultimate" face (with the fully outlined eyes) in the Pan episode though, if you really think that means anything.

Chou form has always been treated as a transformation that needs to be triggered at least by TOEI, so the fully outlined eyes don't really have anything to do with Gohan's power anyway when he's not fighting.

So?

The absence of any statements pertaining to Piccolo surpassing Buu, Gotenks, or whoever could very well be attributed to the fact that surpassing said fighters is no longer an impressive feat and is therefore not even worth mentioning.

I mean GT Base Goku presumably started the series off several tiers stronger than his SSJ3 incarnation from the Buu arc; this is just an example of how absurd power increases can be.

GT Goku who trains with someone around Buu's strenght for years and years would be a much, much more suitable explanation for being drastically stronger, unlike Piccolo's argument here.

The story already disproved the notion that Piccolo can become much stronger than what he already is without a proper plot device, since he supposedly trains like he does in the years after the Cell saga and at most he gets marginally stronger. Against Super Buu he feels like he can't do much, supposedly, even if he trained for two or three years. If you want to be coherent with this extreme take on Piccolo's strenght, you'd have to argue that by entering the ROSAT and training with Gotenks for half-a-day he would've become as strong as Buutenks or Buuhan. And this goes against everything we have been shown.

Hence, Piccolo is still where he was or is again only marginally stronger if you give value to some shred of narrative continuity. If you start bringing in out-of-universe explanation as "Toriyama forgets about continuity" then I'd dare say it makes no sense to post in a thread which deals with the question from an in-universe point-of-view and tries to think about things from that line of reasoning in the first place.

[Bullza]

You could probably fit it together somewhere. I remember someone theorised that Beerus meant 10% of his restrained power.

Still I'm sure that at the time, they were still operating under the thought that Beerus used 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku and it wasn't that farfetched that he used 10% of his power to easily beat Vegeta.

But that was when Beerus wasn't even twice as strong as SSJG and now Toriyama has retconned him to be stronger than SSJB Goku with Kaioken, whether it's still 10x or not. Obviously they might not have known that at the time the 10% line was written though if Toriyama was in the middle of writing still.

I suppose Pre Retcon Beerus could be restrained and Post Retcon Beerus could be unrestrained. That would be one simple way around it.

[LowRyder2005]

You could probably fit it together somewhere. I remember someone theorised that Beerus meant 10% of his restrained power.

Still I'm sure that at the time, they were still operating under the thought that Beerus used 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku and it wasn't that farfetched that he used 10% of his power to easily beat Vegeta.

But that was when Beerus wasn't even twice as strong as SSJG and now Toriyama has retconned him to be stronger than SSJB Goku with Kaioken, whether it's still 10x or not. Obviously they might not have known that at the time the 10% line was written though if Toriyama was in the middle of writing still.

I suppose Pre Retcon Beerus could be restrained and Post Retcon Beerus could be unrestrained. That would be one simple way around it.

Yeah, that was my idea too (that, or that Beerus had some other forms/ unleashed state) he was counting out of the equation, but - like I said above - Beerus specifically refers to 10% of his TRUE power.

Although it's not like I find it wrong, academically speaking, to talk about pre and post-retcon. I mean, it's clear that they wanted us to believe something before and now we have to go for a rather counter-intuitive interpretation of Beerus' words to make everything fit together.

[LowRyder2005]

All right. I gave it some more thought, and here's my conclusion.
I think putting a fully powered Base Goku and Vegeta between SS3 Goku and SS2 Rageta when getting serious (since half of the fights in DB Super so far have been comedy reliefs) would be the best possible estimation right now.

The rationale is that if Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks isn't finger-flicked to death against a supposedly serious "evil" Base Vegeta who shouldn't feel any need to restrain (as a matter of fact, he does go for the kill the moment Goten and Trunks defuse, and the kids are saved only thanks to Goku), that Base Vegeta can't be stronger than the initial Battle of Gods Beerus who effortlessly defeats Goku with a single karate chop. Still capable getting ragdolled around, while getting up in the end as Trunks and Goten, in short, Gotenks survives a beating from start to finish while staying fused; in fact, Copy Vegeta should in theory wreck him for around more than five minutes at least, if the old timers apply.
Also, we know that the Beerus who finger-flicks SS3 Goku needs additional power to stomp the enraged Vegeta SS2, and in the anime SS3 Gotenks is behind SS3 Goku.
Hence, again, we could safely safe that if Copy Vegeta were as strong or stronger than the Beerus who finger-flicked Goku he would have owned SS3 Gotenks much easier and with even less than a finger-flick, but it clearly doesn't happen. Which brings us to:

Beerus first power-up [to basically karate-chop SS2 Rageta as well] > Beerus [to karate-chop SS3 Goku] > SS2 Rageta > Base Vegeta (U6 Arc and beyond) > SS3 Goku > Chou Gohan (Buu Saga) > SS3 Gotenks.

Don't wanna get cocky, boys, and I'm not one that usually does those sensationalist statements like "x theory disproved", "y debunked" and so on, but I'd say we can finally pinpoint where their base form should be.
This in turn gives us an idea of where Fourth Form Freeza is (or rather where he can't be: he can't be stronger than Beerus at the start of BOG).

[Saturnine]

All right. I gave it some more thought, and here's my conclusion.
I think putting a fully powered Base Goku and Vegeta between SS3 Goku and SS2 Rageta when getting serious (since half of the fights in DB Super so far have been comedy reliefs) would be the best possible estimation right now.

The rationale is that if Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks isn't finger-flicked to death against a supposedly serious "evil" Base Vegeta who shouldn't feel any need to restrain (as a matter of fact, he does go for the kill the moment Goten and Trunks defuse, and the kids are saved only thanks to Goku), that Base Vegeta can't be stronger than the initial Battle of Gods Beerus who effortlessly defeats Goku with a single karate chop. Still capable getting ragdolled around, while getting up in the end as Trunks and Goten, in short, Gotenks survives a beating from start to finish while staying fused; in fact, Copy Vegeta should in theory wreck him for around more than five minutes at least, if the old timers apply.
Also, we know that the Beerus who finger-flicks SS3 Goku needs additional power to stomp the enraged Vegeta SS2, and in the anime SS3 Gotenks is behind SS3 Goku.
Hence, again, we could safely safe that if Copy Vegeta were as strong or stronger than the Beerus who finger-flicked Goku he would have owned SS3 Gotenks much easier and with even less than a finger-flick, but it clearly doesn't happen. Which brings us to:

Beerus first power-up [to basically karate-chop SS2 Rageta as well] > Beerus [to karate-chop SS3 Goku] > SS2 Rageta > Base Vegeta (U6 Arc and beyond) > SS3 Goku > Chou Gohan (Buu Saga) > SS3 Gotenks.

Don't wanna get cocky, boys, and I'm not one that usually does those sensationalist statements like "x theory disproved", "y debunked" and so on, but I'd say we can finally pinpoint where their base form should be.
This in turn gives us an idea of where Fourth Form Freeza is (or rather where he can't be: he can't be stronger than Beerus at the start of BOG).

Only that these episodes are considered filler by most and it's unclear how much Toriyama even has to do with them. Fillers are notorious for smoothing out power differences to prolong fight in order to obtain more footage to pan out the episode.