Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun May 29, 2016 4:46 am

If taking hits actually means anything at this point, then in theory Copy Vegeta (who seems on par with Goku) can't possibly be as strong relative to Gotenks as Nappa was to Tenshinhan, or initial Fat Buu was to Dabra and Gohan, or Gohan was to the Cell Jrs, or Goku was to Burter. In other words, probably less than twice as powerful. Since he didn't literally punch Gotenks' arm off or knock him into unconsciousness with a single blow, and Gotenks evidently absorbed at least half a dozen solid hits before going down. So assuming Gotenks is equally as strong as his Buu arc counterpart, I'd tentatively guess post-tournament base Goku/Vegeta at Ultimate Gohan level, making them half again as powerful as SS3 Gotenks. Enough to brush off his attacks when braced, but still close enough that they need to actually hit him a few times to put him down.

Plus there's the small overlooked feat of Gotenks blocking some attacks from a Copy Vegeta who was trying to kill him, when if Copy Vegeta was over twice as strong as him, trying to do that would literally result in his arms being torn off.
Image
There's also the possibility that Gotenks is a lot weaker now. Super seems to work on the idea that your strength atrophies insanely fast without training, with the example of Gohan. But even ignoring that, it's been like five years since Buu, and the manga already established that no training for such a period would moderately decrease Goten/Trunks' strength. I dunno, we'll probably get more clarification next episode, or if Gohan's training ever actually ends up meaning anything. This is why I'm holding off on trying to specifically classify everyone at the moment because something will probably change my mind next week.

From an out of universe point of view though, I have to wonder why the heck they'd even contrive such a scenario where Vegeta is depowered and Goku is gone if everyone else is still completely worthless at anything but taking a beating. In previous arcs the others could at least fight the villain's weaker forms (e.g. Piccolo v 2nd form Freeza), but now if you're not Goku or Vegeta then even the villain's first form is too much for you. It makes you wonder why they even bother giving the villain a first form or, in the case of the tournament, "minions".
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sun May 29, 2016 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun May 29, 2016 4:51 am

Saturnine wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:All right. I gave it some more thought, and here's my conclusion.
I think putting a fully powered Base Goku and Vegeta between SS3 Goku and SS2 Rageta when getting serious (since half of the fights in DB Super so far have been comedy reliefs) would be the best possible estimation right now.

The rationale is that if Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks isn't finger-flicked to death against a supposedly serious "evil" Base Vegeta who shouldn't feel any need to restrain (as a matter of fact, he does go for the kill the moment Goten and Trunks defuse, and the kids are saved only thanks to Goku), that Base Vegeta can't be stronger than the initial Battle of Gods Beerus who effortlessly defeats Goku with a single karate chop. Still capable getting ragdolled around, while getting up in the end as Trunks and Goten, in short, Gotenks survives a beating from start to finish while staying fused; in fact, Copy Vegeta should in theory wreck him for around more than five minutes at least, if the old timers apply.
Also, we know that the Beerus who finger-flicks SS3 Goku needs additional power to stomp the enraged Vegeta SS2, and in the anime SS3 Gotenks is behind SS3 Goku.
Hence, again, we could safely safe that if Copy Vegeta were as strong or stronger than the Beerus who finger-flicked Goku he would have owned SS3 Gotenks much easier and with even less than a finger-flick, but it clearly doesn't happen. Which brings us to:

Beerus first power-up [to basically karate-chop SS2 Rageta as well] > Beerus [to karate-chop SS3 Goku] > SS2 Rageta > Base Vegeta (U6 Arc and beyond) > SS3 Goku > Chou Gohan (Buu Saga) > SS3 Gotenks.

Don't wanna get cocky, boys, and I'm not one that usually does those sensationalist statements like "x theory disproved", "y debunked" and so on, but I'd say we can finally pinpoint where their base form should be.
This in turn gives us an idea of where Fourth Form Freeza is (or rather where he can't be: he can't be stronger than Beerus at the start of BOG).
Only that these episodes are considered filler by most and it's unclear how much Toriyama even has to do with them. Fillers are notorious for smoothing out power differences to prolong fight in order to obtain more footage to pan out the episode.
Hold on, we talk about filler for something that has been added on top of an original draft. The Dragon Ball Super anime series is by TOEI and Toriyama. TOEI's team of writers are co-authors as well, so nothing in DB Super is filler because Dragon Ball Super is not a transposition.

What you are talking is wanting something like "experiencing something made only by Toriyama"; you may as well stick to the manga or hold it in higher regard (I do, I mean, I would usually give more weight to the framework of the manga, which is way less contrived, apparently), in which Toriyama is the only credited author. But talking about filler made by TOEI for a show in which TOEI's writers contribute to the original plot makes little sense.

I subscribe to RandomGuy96's thoughts, who is on the mark as usual, in my opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun May 29, 2016 5:30 am

All right fellas, time for the super-duper long chart again.

Scale = 1 : 1,000,000,000
-------------- Z Framework -----------------
Super Vegito: 1,200
Buuhan: 350
SS3 Goku (100%; can't reach without anyone buying time): 250
Buutenks: 232
Chou Gohan: 200
Kid Buu: 155
SS3 Goku: 150
Super Buu: 150 (note: TOEI's logic; stronger than Gotenks because he needs to be enough of a threat to SS3 Goku)
Gotenks SS3 (post-ROSAT): 144
Fat Buu: 20
Majin Vegeta: 13.5
SS2 Gohan (Cell Game): 13
SS Gotenks (pre-ROSAT): 9.5 (* Daizenshuu)
Good Buu: 9
SP Cell: 7.5
Perfect Cell: 7
SS Gohan (Cell Game): 6.5
SS Goku (Cell Game): 6
SS Gohan (Buu Arc): 4.8
Dabra: 4.75

Cell Jr.: 4
SS Vegeta (Cell Game): 3.75
Piccolo (Cell Game): 3
Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta: 2.8
Semi-Perfect Cell: 2
#16: 1.5
Imperfect Cell (empowered): 1.45
Piccolo (fused with Kami): 1
#17: 0.96
#18: 0.82
Imperfect Cell (vs. Piccolo): 0.75
------------- Super Framework -----------------

------------ Omni King Tier ------------
Zenou: Much higher than everyone else

------------ Realm of Gods ------------
Zenou's attendants: Supposedly higher than Whis/ Vados
Whis/ Vados: Much higher than Beerus
Beerus: 135,000
Champa: 131,000
SSB Goku + Kaioken * 10: 127,500
Hit: 100,000 (end of the fight)
SSB Goku/ SSB Vegeta (U6 Arc): 12,750
Golden Freeza: 12,000
SSB Goku/ SSB Vegeta (ROF): 9,000
Goku (SSG): 8,000

------------ Mid to High Z-tier ------------
Beerus (vs. SS2 Vegeta): 720
SS Vegeta + Final Flash (U6 Arc): 640
Beerus (vs. SS3 Goku): 500
SS Goku/ SS Vegeta (U6 Arc and beyond; first shown at the end of the Cabbe fight, then used against Magetta): 480
BOG's SS2 Vegeta (angry) + Galick Gun: 420
BOG's SS2 Vegeta (angry): 280
Base Goku/ Base Vegeta (U6 Arc; powered up)/ Copy-Vegeta: 240
Base Goku/ Base Vegeta (U6 Arc; powered up): 180
BOG's SS3 Goku (pre-training): 172
Final Form Freeza: 169
SS3 Gotenks: 136
Magetta (end of the fight; could hurt a restrained Vegeta; nearly invulnerable): 115
Final Form Frost: 105
Assault Form Frost: 70
SS Cabbe: 50
Chou Gohan (BOG): 40

------------ Low to mid Z-tier ------------
SS Gotenks: 34
Base Goku/ Vegeta (post-training; vs. Frost and Cabbe; not exerting much strenght): 9.6
Mr. Buu: 9 (note: outclassed per BOG feats and power-scaling, but he can still go at it with Base Goku and Vegeta, after all; possibly able to reach Fat Buu's strenght when enraged)
First Form Freeza (ROF): 7.5 (note: as Piccolo doesn't even bother to try to pull a Makankosappo)
***** Piccolo's Makankosappo: 6
SS Gohan (ROF): 4.5
Final Form Frost (weakened/ tired): 4.2
Ginyu (Tagoma's body): 3.9
Piccolo (U6 Arc): 3.8 (note: thanks to his training with Gohan)
Tagoma: 3.75
Piccolo (ROF Arc): 3.6
First Form Frost: 3.5
SS Trunks: 1.2
SS Goten: 1.175
Cabbe: 1
Botamo: 0.65
BOG's Goku (Base/ pre-training): 0.625 (note: yeah, turns out he's about a whoppin' four times stronger than Freeza. Surprised? Let me preface this by saying that the "below Freeza" scenario works way better in the conservative framework of the manga; in the anime you need to have at least the Kid > Super or Kid > Buuhan rule, and I found it's almost impossible to reconcile it with Goku being below Freeza, unless you theorize something like Gotenks being incredibly weak)
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Mon May 30, 2016 10:20 am, edited 14 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 29, 2016 7:35 am

I would really like to know why so many people opt to go with SSj3 Goku >> Ultimate Gohan, i.e. the "anime continuity".

Toriyama is the one who establishes the strength relationships here, he doesn't have to give a fuck about how badly Toei butchered the Buu saga in this regard.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Sun May 29, 2016 8:10 am

Don't understand why people overate buu saga fighters as if there shit in super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun May 29, 2016 8:30 am

Saturnine wrote:I would really like to know why so many people opt to go with SSj3 Goku >> Ultimate Gohan, i.e. the "anime continuity".

Toriyama is the one who establishes the strength relationships here, he doesn't have to give a fuck about how badly Toei butchered the Buu saga in this regard.
The strenght relationships according to Toriyama. Indeed.
"Toriyama-san, Toriyama-san! Here's the draft for ep. 2.... aaaaand, here Vegeta remarks that Goku is the number 1 after defeating the mightiest enemy of them all... which is of course Kid Buu! (っ*´∀`*)っ ╰(▔∀▔)╯
"Oh, cool. 'cause Goku is the always pure strongest and Pure Buu was the last villain... mmm, isn't that right?" 【・ヘ・?】
"How, Toriyama-san, don't you remember? We even made that super cool movie in 1996! DO-RA-GUN Fist Explosion! If Goku Doesn't, Who Will?" d=(´▽`)=b (¬‿¬)
"Oh, yeah, how silly! How could I forget that one! You're so resourceful!" (≧▽≦)
Don't understand why people overate buu saga fighters as if there shit in super.
How exactly is anyone overrating anyone?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun May 29, 2016 9:38 am

LowRyder2005 wrote: The strenght relationships according to Toriyama. Indeed.
"Toriyama-san, Toriyama-san! Here's the draft for ep. 2.... aaaaand, here Vegeta remarks that Goku is the number 1 after defeating the mightiest enemy of them all... which is of course Kid Buu! (っ*´∀`*)っ ╰(▔∀▔)╯
"Oh, cool. 'cause Goku is the always pure strongest and Pure Buu was the last villain... mmm, isn't that right?" 【・ヘ・?】
"How, Toriyama-san, don't you remember? We even made that super cool movie in 1996! DO-RA-GUN Fist Explosion! If Goku Doesn't, Who Will?" d=(´▽`)=b (¬‿¬)
"Oh, yeah, how silly! How could I forget that one! You're so resourceful!" (≧▽≦)
This made me laugh me laugh a lot and I'm strongly tempted to sig it. :lol: :clap:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun May 29, 2016 9:42 am

Final Form Freeza seems like he should be higher. He's about equal to Base Goku in Super.

Most of Super really does seem rather weak compared to the Boo saga in your list, though. That's probably what pacz is talking about. I'd like to think Super would show progression rather than the opposite.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun May 29, 2016 9:53 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Final Form Freeza seems like he should be higher. He's about equal to Base Goku in Super.

Most of Super really does seem rather weak compared to the Boo saga in your list, though. That's probably what pacz is talking about. I'd like to think Super would show progression rather than the opposite.
I kind of like the Freeza's observation. This gave me the chance to put him at a clean 120,000,000,000, with a clear *1000 increase. I could make him stronger than Kid Buu though, at least in theory, in Z you even have a filler in which he is in fact able to see Buu fight and he trains to become stronger than him in the first place... yeah, actually, I guess I'd prefer his level to be higher than Kid Buu's, I'll retouch those.
As for the rest, it's simply because I don't feel like anyone other than Goku and Vegeta made progress and because there are only a handful of serious significant fights scenes that can translate in serious and significant feats.

Anyway, it's been pretty much confirmed that Base forms in Super shouldn't be beyond the initial Beerus from BOG (or Gotenks would have literally been killed on the spot like a Cell Jr., instead of putting some sort of resistance), whom in turn can't be much above Rageta. The rest is more of a consequence than anything. Unless they confuse things again in the next episodes, and I should probably expect it. Right now though, I concur with how RandomGuy96 summed it up: Beyond God Base ~ Chou form; or Beyond God Base ~ a step or two above SS3/ Chou.
This made me laugh me laugh a lot and I'm strongly tempted to sig it. :lol: :clap:
Haha, I feel rather honored. :)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun May 29, 2016 11:05 am

F***! I can't believe it! This all thing is messed! So Super Gotenks 3 is nothing to par with the Base God Saiyans, so what is it? The two Base theory is broken? Piccolo got a huge power up only by scratching his ass on the wastelands? SSJ Goku/Vegeta are now comparable to Vegetto? DARN IT! :x
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Big Black Sayian » Sun May 29, 2016 11:06 am

So does this mean SSJ Cabba is strong enough to beat SSJ3 Gotenks?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Neon Z » Sun May 29, 2016 11:16 am

Noah wrote:F***! I can't believe it! This all thing is messed! So Super Gotenks 3 is nothing to par with the Base God Saiyans, so what is it? The two Base theory is broken? Piccolo got a huge power up only by scratching his ass on the wastelands? SSJ Goku/Vegeta are now comparable to Vegetto? DARN IT! :x
We soon will get an arc that we know has heavy involvement from Toriyama, so I don't think people should rush to change things based on this episode. Although what happened here should fit the power scale of everyone who wasn't trying to deliberately downscale every number they could. Really, something like the two base theory is just a bad idea for an on-going show. This isn't a finished series where you can look at things overall and then think about some explanation that can fit what happened there, which is basically what the two base theory is - a way to avoid giving Piccolo a huge power up, based on a concept that has never been mentioned in the show, but could be used to avoid something that's seen as a plothole. The events are still on-going, so it's rather easy for some new information to contradict it.

This situation reminds me of how for a long time people seemed to reject the idea that Piccolo gained much from the 3 years of training for the androids, in spite of several lines and events that seem to place him near SSJ level even before fusing with Kamisama.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Plus there's the small overlooked feat of Gotenks blocking some attacks from a Copy Vegeta who was trying to kill him
I don't think Copy Vegeta was trying to kill them though. He clearly didn't want to drain Trunks and is shown to feel a connection to him afterwards.
Last edited by Neon Z on Sun May 29, 2016 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun May 29, 2016 11:25 am

F***! I can't believe it! This all thing is messed! So Super Gotenks 3 is nothing to par with the Base God Saiyans, so what is it? The two Base theory is broken? Piccolo got a huge power up only by scratching his ass on the wastelands? SSJ Goku/Vegeta are now comparable to Vegetto? DARN IT!
There's still no need, I think. According to Piccolo, unless he's bluffing, he would feel to be a match for First Form Frost (without stuff like the Makankosappo).
You can have First Form Frost around some Cell tier - with the "warming up" Goku right above - and Assault/ Final Form Frost in-between Fat and Super Buu. The weakened Frost then goes back to Perfect/ Super Perfect Cell tier.
So does this mean SSJ Cabba is strong enough to beat SSJ3 Gotenks?
While you could look it as a decisive win for Cabbe, I personally believe it's up in the air, really. I'd give the edge to Cabbe, but even after rewatching the fight a couple of times I can't help but feel like Vegeta could've won without going Super Saiyan and that he uses the form just to motivate him to go SS as well. I find Gotenks managing to stay alive for five minutes or so against a bloodlusted Vegeta more meaningful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun May 29, 2016 11:27 am

Very insightful post Random. I gotta agree with it. Gotenks wasn't one shotted, and he managed to at least tank some attacks without dying. I agree their base states could be Ultimate Gohan level or higher from this view.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Big Black Sayian » Sun May 29, 2016 12:17 pm

Gotenks vs copy Vegeta just shows that it doesn't matter which form you're in for a Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun May 29, 2016 1:19 pm

So does this mean SSJ Cabba is strong enough to beat SSJ3 Gotenks?
Base Cabba is strong enough to beat SSJ3 Gotenks.

Base Cabba = Base Vegeta

Base Vegeta = Copy Vegeta

Copy Vegeta >>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
I agree their base states could be Ultimate Gohan level or higher from this view.
They should be well above Ultimate Gohan. Angry SSJ2 Vegeta was stronger than Ultimate Gohan and he was taken out by a poke to the head. Base Goku has taken proper punches and blasts from Beerus (some unrestrained) and he's still been conscious.

Not to mention that before Vegeta went to train with Whis, Whis commented that he'd got a lot stronger. Then Goku said he'd powered up hugely and didn't recognise him.

Base Vegeta > Angry SSJ2 Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun May 29, 2016 1:43 pm

Bullza wrote:
So does this mean SSJ Cabba is strong enough to beat SSJ3 Gotenks?
Base Cabba is strong enough to beat SSJ3 Gotenks.

Base Cabba = Base Vegeta

Base Vegeta = Copy Vegeta

Copy Vegeta >>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
I agree their base states could be Ultimate Gohan level or higher from this view.
They should be well above Ultimate Gohan. Angry SSJ2 Vegeta was stronger than Ultimate Gohan and he was taken out by a poke to the head. Base Goku has taken proper punches and blasts from Beerus (some unrestrained) and he's still been conscious.

Not to mention that before Vegeta went to train with Whis, Whis commented that he'd got a lot stronger. Then Goku said he'd powered up hugely and didn't recognise him.

Base Vegeta > Angry SSJ2 Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks
If that were the case then Gotenks should have been downed in one punch. Yet he didn't just fall to a single attack. He survived an onslaught against a bloodlusted Googeta.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun May 29, 2016 1:44 pm

@Bullza: They can't be even two times stronger than Gohan, purely in theory. Talking about Beerus, the gap between Copy Vegeta and SS3 Gotenks can't be wider than the one between the initial Beerus and SS3 Goku.

If we follow something like:

Beerus after Galick Gun: 2
Beerus at the beginning: 1
Rageta: 0.8
SS3 Goku: 0.25
SS3 Gotenks: 0.18

You end up having the Base Form around here:
Beerus after Galick Gun: 2
Beerus at the beginning: 1
Rageta: 0.8 <---------------- Enough to force Beerus to power up ever-so-slightly
Copy Vegeta = Base Beyond God: 0.3
SS3 Goku: 0.25
SS3 Gotenks: 0.18

Any statement about Beerus punching Goku can be justified with Beerus pulling his punches (or being tired/ feigning exhaustion), while the same can't be said for Copy Vegeta, since the moment the Fusion runs out it immediately goes for the finishing blow. If you put them at Base Vegito tier and the Copy really has Vegeta's normal strenght, Gotenks would have a been reduced to a pulp of dead meat in one second. Instead Gotenks survives a literal barrage of attacks for at least some minutes.

I'd say it almost literally looks like the outcome of a Chou Gohan vs. SS3 Gotenks fight in the Buu Saga.

As a side note, Dragon Ball Heroes - the game which had coined the term "Beyond God" - apparently intended for the Beyond God state to still be less effective in-game that the Red form; the power-up apparently gives the same benefits Super Saiyan 3 can give.
Super Saiyan 3: +4000 power or +6000 power
Saiyan beyond God: +6000 power
Super Saiyan God: +8000 power
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan: +9000 power, hero energy +1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Neon Z » Sun May 29, 2016 2:04 pm

dbzfan7 wrote: If that were the case then Gotenks should have been downed in one punch. Yet he didn't just fall to a single attack. He survived an onslaught against a bloodlusted Googeta.
Copy Vegeta wasn't "bloodlusted" though. It's shown several times that he also copied Vegeta's feelings for his son.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun May 29, 2016 2:13 pm

Neon Z wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote: If that were the case then Gotenks should have been downed in one punch. Yet he didn't just fall to a single attack. He survived an onslaught against a bloodlusted Googeta.
Copy Vegeta wasn't "bloodlusted" though. It's shown several times that he also copied Vegeta's feelings for his son.
He was gleefully beating up Gotenks. He was a second from murdering the boys if not for Goku, with a big ol smile on his face while he was doing it. Don't know what you mean by several times other than that one time, and even then he was about to murder Trunks if not for Jaco. If he was that much stronger, then the fight would basically be SSJ Vegeta vs Frost or SSJB Vegeta vs Cabba. A simple quick end.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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