Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

If that were the case then Gotenks should have been downed in one punch. Yet he didn't just fall to a single attack. He survived an onslaught against a bloodlusted Googeta.

That can be said about a lot of characters. Frieza didn't down Goku with one punch, Super Saiyan Goku didn't down Frieza with one punch when he was over twice as strong, Kid Buu didn't down SSJ2 Vegeta with one punch when he was nearly four times as strong etc.

Copy Vegeta was hit full force and he didn't even budge. He might also have been holding back if a part of him was still attached to Trunks.

Rageta: 0.8 <---------------- Enough to force Beerus to power up ever-so-slightly
Copy Vegeta = Base Beyond God: 0.3

But Base Vegeta is stronger than Rageta though, they pretty much said as much.

Any statement about Beerus punching Goku can be justified with Beerus pulling his punches

That couldn't be said about being hit directly with a Ki blast though. They said that it was an unrestrained attack.

[ZombieVito]

I just realized that EoZ doesn't work now. Goku is now confirmed without a doubt to be a lot stronger than Pure Boo.

[LowRyder2005]

Agreed with dbzfan. Maybe "bloodlusted" could be the typical hyperbolic internet slang, but it's a simplification of the concept that Copy-Vegeta is fighting with the clear intent to murder his opponent, so it's really doubtful that there's room for a "he's going easy" or "he's pulling his punches" argument to be made.

But Base Vegeta is stronger than Rageta though, they pretty much said as much.

Are you talking about Goku's quote? He meant about how Vegeta compared to his former SS2 self, most likely. Rageta is more than a quick burst of power than a regular form anyway, so I doubt he'd consider it his regular strenght.

That couldn't be said about being hit directly with a Ki blast though. They said that it was an unrestrained attack.

When?
Ah, I got it, you must be referring to when Beerus is half-asleep. Well, it still works with Beerus being at a level that Base Goku can manage. I mean, I don't remember the exact wording, but if Beerus was "unrestrained" he'd have blown up the planet or even SSB + Kaioken * 10 Goku.

[dbzfan7]

If that were the case then Gotenks should have been downed in one punch. Yet he didn't just fall to a single attack. He survived an onslaught against a bloodlusted Googeta.

That can be said about a lot of characters. Frieza didn't down Goku with one punch, Super Saiyan Goku didn't down Frieza with one punch when he was over twice as strong, Kid Buu didn't down SSJ2 Vegeta with one punch when he was nearly four times as strong etc.

Copy Vegeta was hit full force and he didn't even budge. He might also have been holding back if a part of him was still attached to Trunks.

Which is fine. I'm not saying I know how everyone stands. I'm saying my viewpoint is a fair one.

Freeza didn't want to end Goku right away, and wasn't willing to til he charged that ball when he got bored. Goku didn't want to end Freeza til he went to 100%. Kid Boo seemed to sadistically toy with Vegeta, considering his attitude to dick around. Copy Vegeta was beating the hell out of Gotenks and was ready to kill him in an instant. He tried to kill Trunks literally after that one moment. You can say Copy Vegeta was dicking around too if you want. I'm just saying what some of our impressions are fair enough take aways.

[Lord Beerus]

If taking hits actually means anything at this point, then in theory Copy Vegeta (who seems on par with Goku) can't possibly be as strong relative to Gotenks as Nappa was to Tenshinhan, or initial Fat Buu was to Dabra and Gohan, or Gohan was to the Cell Jrs, or Goku was to Burter. In other words, probably less than twice as powerful. Since he didn't literally punch Gotenks' arm off or knock him into unconsciousness with a single blow, and Gotenks evidently absorbed at least half a dozen solid hits before going down. So assuming Gotenks is equally as strong as his Buu arc counterpart, I'd tentatively guess post-tournament base Goku/Vegeta at Ultimate Gohan level, making them half again as powerful as SS3 Gotenks. Enough to brush off his attacks when braced, but still close enough that they need to actually hit him a few times to put him down.

Plus there's the small overlooked feat of Gotenks blocking some attacks from a Copy Vegeta who was trying to kill him, when if Copy Vegeta was over twice as strong as him, trying to do that would literally result in his arms being torn off.

Spoiler:

There's also the possibility that Gotenks is a lot weaker now. Super seems to work on the idea that your strength atrophies insanely fast without training, with the example of Gohan. But even ignoring that, it's been like five years since Buu, and the manga already established that no training for such a period would moderately decrease Goten/Trunks' strength. I dunno, we'll probably get more clarification next episode, or if Gohan's training ever actually ends up meaning anything. This is why I'm holding off on trying to specifically classify everyone at the moment because something will probably change my mind next week.

From an out of universe point of view though, I have to wonder why the heck they'd even contrive such a scenario where Vegeta is depowered and Goku is gone if everyone else is still completely worthless at anything but taking a beating. In previous arcs the others could at least fight the villain's weaker forms (e.g. Piccolo v 2nd form Freeza), but now if you're not Goku or Vegeta then even the villain's first form is too much for you. It makes you wonder why they even bother giving the villain a first form or, in the case of the tournament, "minions".

You make a lot good points, RandomGuy96. I think I'm gonna have to re-think a few things.

[LowRyder2005]

I just realized that EoZ doesn't work now. Goku is now confirmed without a doubt to be a lot stronger than Pure Boo.

True. I guess we'd have to rethink of it as Goku taking it easy on Uub instead of them being evenly matched (I doubt Uub can be stronger than Kid Buu), if Toriyama still gives the original ending some value and won't rewrite it at the end of Super.

[dbzfan7]

I just realized that EoZ doesn't work now. Goku is now confirmed without a doubt to be a lot stronger than Pure Boo.

True. I guess we'd have to rethink of it as Goku taking it easy on Uub instead of them being evenly matched (I doubt Uub can be stronger than Kid Buu), if Toriyama still gives the original ending some value and won't rewrite it at the end of Super.

Or Gotenks just became as pathetic as Gohan, and got a lot weaker in a short amount of time.

[LowRyder2005]

I just realized that EoZ doesn't work now. Goku is now confirmed without a doubt to be a lot stronger than Pure Boo.

True. I guess we'd have to rethink of it as Goku taking it easy on Uub instead of them being evenly matched (I doubt Uub can be stronger than Kid Buu), if Toriyama still gives the original ending some value and won't rewrite it at the end of Super.

Or Gotenks just became as pathetic as Gohan, and got a lot weaker in a short amount of time.

Yes, that's another possibility. I don't personally believe that it can be the case (or rather that it can follow the magnitude of Gohan's case), especially given the supposedly natural potential of Goten and Trunks, but you could in theory bring them back at pre-ROSAT level in a very conservative estimation by adhering to the notion that the lack of training made them punier.

[dbzfan7]

True. I guess we'd have to rethink of it as Goku taking it easy on Uub instead of them being evenly matched (I doubt Uub can be stronger than Kid Buu), if Toriyama still gives the original ending some value and won't rewrite it at the end of Super.

Or Gotenks just became as pathetic as Gohan, and got a lot weaker in a short amount of time.

Yes, that's another possibility. I don't personally believe that it can be the case (or rather that it can follow the magnitude of Gohan's case), especially given the supposedly natural potential of Goten and Trunks, but you could in theory bring them back at pre-ROSAT level in a very conservative estimation by adhering to the notion that the lack of training made them punier.

I don't personally believe it as the case because just like other cases, nothing was said that they got any weaker. Since nothing was said, I don't really have a reason to believe they did. Though I think the D7 suggests they got stronger by EOZ, but not explosively so. So they pretty much remained around their Boo arc levels.

[Neon Z]

If that were the case then Gotenks should have been downed in one punch. Yet he didn't just fall to a single attack. He survived an onslaught against a bloodlusted Googeta.

Copy Vegeta wasn't "bloodlusted" though. It's shown several times that he also copied Vegeta's feelings for his son.

He was gleefully beating up Gotenks. He was a second from murdering the boys if not for Goku, with a big ol smile on his face while he was doing it. Don't know what you mean by several times other than that one time, and even then he was about to murder Trunks if not for Jaco. If he was that much stronger, then the fight would basically be SSJ Vegeta vs Frost or SSJB Vegeta vs Cabba. A simple quick end.

He mentions Trunks' name and seems to hesitate for a moment when ordered to absorb him. He says that he's proud of Trunks for coming to face him when he pop ups later, before fusing. He also mentions it again after the fusion was undone.

Also, rewatching the episode, Copy Vegeta was ordered to absorb them when Gotenks went SSJ3. So, he was never aiming to kill Gotenks SSJ3 during that battle.

[dbzfan7]

Copy Vegeta wasn't "bloodlusted" though. It's shown several times that he also copied Vegeta's feelings for his son.

He was gleefully beating up Gotenks. He was a second from murdering the boys if not for Goku, with a big ol smile on his face while he was doing it. Don't know what you mean by several times other than that one time, and even then he was about to murder Trunks if not for Jaco. If he was that much stronger, then the fight would basically be SSJ Vegeta vs Frost or SSJB Vegeta vs Cabba. A simple quick end.

He mentions Trunks' name and seems to hesitate for a moment when ordered to absorb him. He says that he's proud of Trunks for coming to face him when he pop ups later, before fusing. He also mentions it again after the fusion was undone.

Also, rewatching the episode, Copy Vegeta was ordered to absorb them when Gotenks went SSJ3. So, he was never aiming to kill Gotenks SSJ3 during that battle.

Absorbing him, is killing him. That's literally death. He was going to kill Trunks literally right after that. He has no problem killing him. He gleefully beats the crap out of the boys, and immediately charges a blast to kill them without any hesitation once their fusion ends. Gotenks shouldn't last or even be able to tank any attacks if Googeta is as strong as you say. He'd go down as quick as Vegeta beating Cabba and Frost. If Googeta is that much stronger, then he could OHKO Gotenks, without killing him, if he was that strongly against killing them. Even with restraining himself, he could still pull off an OHKO.

For the same reason he won't absorb Goku. He has a lust for fighting now after absorbing Vegeta. They also mention he doesn't want to power up further by sharing a Vegeta characteristic.

[Neon Z]

Absorbing him, is killing him. That's literally death.

Absorbing would involve releasing those tentacles or a separate blob, and he wasn't doing that at that point, so he wasn't going to absorb them at that point yet.

For the same reason he won't absorb Goku. He has a lust for fighting now after absorbing Vegeta. They also mention he doesn't want to power up further by sharing a Vegeta characteristic.

He's actively going against orders in that scene though, which is why he gets electrocuted and then attacks the commander. During the Gotenks battle, he seemingly wasn't disobeying him, so none of his moves should be intended to kill Gotenks, since he was supposed to absorb him, and so he needed to be alive.

[dbzfan7]

Absorbing him, is killing him. That's literally death.

Absorbing would involve releasing those tentacles or a separate blob, and he wasn't doing that at that point, so he wasn't going to absorb them at that point yet.

For the same reason he won't absorb Goku. He has a lust for fighting now after absorbing Vegeta. They also mention he doesn't want to power up further by sharing a Vegeta characteristic.

He's actively going against orders in that scene though, which is why he gets electrocuted and then attacks the commander. During the Gotenks battle, he seemingly wasn't disobeying him, so none of his moves should be intended to kill Gotenks, since he was supposed to absorb him, and so he needed to be alive.

He was going to absorb him. That was the point of that scene. Jaco saved Trunks from getting absorbed, and in turn killed. We literally see in the episode that the other guy absorbs people with the tentacles using the same trick. What was Googeta doing then, going to grab Trunks to hug him?

There were no orders at all against killing Gotenks. He was also about to kill the boys, without any problem. I also said even if you want to include some form of pacifism for some reason, there is no reason at all he couldn't simply OHKO Gotenks, and not kill him. You know like how Vegeta OHKoed Cabba and Frost without killing them. He also could have done that too if he was so much stronger. Yet instead he went on a full assault that Gotenks managed to not only survive, but not get instantly Koed from. If the gap was so much larger, logically Gotenks could be taken out both lethally, and non lethally in one punch. Either way the one shot would happen if he's that far above Gotenks. I think if Gotenks fought Ultimate Gohan, we'd basically get the same fight that happened here anyways.

[Bullza]

Are you talking about Goku's quote? He meant about how Vegeta compared to his former SS2 self, most likely. Rageta is more than a quick burst of power than a regular form anyway, so I doubt he'd consider it his regular strenght.

I don't know about that because Goku was there when Vegeta powered up so already felt that power.

Whis said to Vegeta that he'd powered up a lot when he saw him. Then Goku said he'd powered up hugely to the point he didn't even recognise him.

Ah, I got it, you must be referring to when Beerus is half-asleep.

He was half asleep and they obviously weren't his best attacks but he caught Goku with his tail, Vegeta with his foot and hit both with a small blast and they were still conscious even though he was said to be unrestrained.

On the hand Vegeta was knocked out with a poke when he was restrained. So there's a clear difference.

[RandomGuy96]

If they were actually telling the truth about those being unrestrained attacks, then they'd be dead even if the Cabba fight is bullshit and their bases are god tier. Goku literally gets ten times stronger and is still weaker than Beerus, obviously an attack from Beerus at even half power would vaporize Goku at that point.

Absorbing him, is killing him. That's literally death.

Absorbing would involve releasing those tentacles or a separate blob, and he wasn't doing that at that point, so he wasn't going to absorb them at that point yet.

For the same reason he won't absorb Goku. He has a lust for fighting now after absorbing Vegeta. They also mention he doesn't want to power up further by sharing a Vegeta characteristic.

He's actively going against orders in that scene though, which is why he gets electrocuted and then attacks the commander. During the Gotenks battle, he seemingly wasn't disobeying him, so none of his moves should be intended to kill Gotenks, since he was supposed to absorb him, and so he needed to be alive.

He was going to absorb him. That was the point of that scene. Jaco saved Trunks from getting absorbed, and in turn killed. We literally see in the episode that the other guy absorbs people with the tentacles using the same trick. What was Googeta doing then, going to grab Trunks to hug him?

There were no orders at all against killing Gotenks. He was also about to kill the boys, without any problem. I also said even if you want to include some form of pacifism for some reason, there is no reason at all he couldn't simply OHKO Gotenks, and not kill him. You know like how Vegeta OHKoed Cabba and Frost without killing them. He also could have done that too if he was so much stronger. Yet instead he went on a full assault that Gotenks managed to not only survive, but not get instantly Koed from. If the gap was so much larger, logically Gotenks could be taken out both lethally, and non lethally in one punch. Either way the one shot would happen if he's that far above Gotenks. I think if Gotenks fought Ultimate Gohan, we'd basically get the same fight that happened here anyways.

Not to mention, Gotenks still displayed the durability and reflexes necessary to block some punches. I recall everyone thinking that was a huge deal when Piccolo did it with Frost.

I just realized that EoZ doesn't work now. Goku is now confirmed without a doubt to be a lot stronger than Pure Boo.

Unless Gotenks is many times weaker than he was in the Buu arc, like Gohan (Goten and Trunks don't even necessarily have to be proportionally weaker for that to be true). Hard to say, but this at least establishes a ceiling.

[ZombieVito]

I just realized that EoZ doesn't work now. Goku is now confirmed without a doubt to be a lot stronger than Pure Boo.

Unless Gotenks is many times weaker than he was in the Buu arc, like Gohan (Goten and Trunks don't even necessarily have to be proportionally weaker for that to be true). Hard to say, but this at least establishes a ceiling.

The thing is that hasn't been stated anywhere, unlike with Gohan in the RoF arc.

We shall see indeed.

[Pannaliciour]

Seeing this latest episode, damm how strong is Uub going to be?

[Neon Z]

He was going to absorb him. That was the point of that scene. Jaco saved Trunks from getting absorbed, and in turn killed. We literally see in the episode that the other guy absorbs people with the tentacles using the same trick. What was Googeta doing then, going to grab Trunks to hug him?

I wasn't talking about that scene there, but about Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta. I referenced the tentacles from the earlier scene to say that he hadn't been using them yet in the later battle, and so he wasn't killing/finishing them off with any of the actions that he took while on screen (in the second battle).

There were no orders at all against killing Gotenks. He was also about to kill the boys, without any problem.

That's the point I was talking about. There were orders to absorb Gotenks, and apparently he wasn't disobeying them since the other goo didn't complain about how he was fighting. So, no, the basic premise mentioned before (that he must have been attacking with intention to kill and couldn't possibly have a reason to hold back any strength) was wrong. He received orders to absorb Trunks and afterwards to absorb Gotenks, and there's nothing suggesting that he was going against them. So, in the later, when he didn't use the tentacles, he's never shown about to finish them off.

Not to mention, Gotenks still displayed the durability and reflexes necessary to block some punches. I recall everyone thinking that was a huge deal when Piccolo did it with Frost.

We see Gotenks moving his arms in a slow and clumsy defensive stance while copy Vegeta attacks him everywhere in super speed. This isn't comparable at all with Piccolo blocking Frost's attack blow for blow.

[dbzfan7]

He was going to absorb him. That was the point of that scene. Jaco saved Trunks from getting absorbed, and in turn killed. We literally see in the episode that the other guy absorbs people with the tentacles using the same trick. What was Googeta doing then, going to grab Trunks to hug him?

I wasn't talking about that scene there, but about Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta. I referenced the tentacles from the earlier scene to say that he hadn't been using them yet in the later battle, and so he wasn't killing/finishing them off with any of the actions that he took while on screen (in the second battle).

There were no orders at all against killing Gotenks. He was also about to kill the boys, without any problem.

That's the point I was talking about. There were orders to absorb Gotenks, and apparently he wasn't disobeying them since the other goo didn't complain about how he was fighting. So, no, the basic premise mentioned before (that he must have been attacking with intention to kill and couldn't possibly have a reason to hold back any strength) was wrong. He received orders to absorb Trunks and afterwards to absorb Gotenks, and there's nothing suggesting that he was going against them. So, in the later, when he didn't use the tentacles, he's never shown about to finish them off.

He has no issue with not killing them earlier after one hiccup. Has no issue beating the shit out of them. Then has no issue blasting them to smithereens once he's done. I don't see where he's holding back. Not one shit is given. He has Vegeta's personality and doesn't seem to want to absorb anyone else. Even with the personality, he still was going to kill Trunks. Why would he hold back, but now all the sudden be ok with killing them?

Again I keep pointing this out a million times. He could still non lethally one shot Gotenks if he was that strong, even if he was holding back for some reason. If he's that much stronger and didn't want to kill the boys (which he did), he could punch them once in the gut, and end the fight right there. But he couldn't. What stops him from simply OHKOing Gotenks right away?

This is why I hate discussing practically anything in this thread. It just comes back to circle jerking and people enforcing their perspective over everyone else. It was the same with the God Ki, two base theory, SBG, Piccolo, 6/10/15, etc. It's like you're not allowed to have your own stance on nonsense, without having a headbutt argument.Once you have a theory or perception, someone else immediately has to come in, and then shove their perception as the "TRU CANONZ"

[Lord Beerus]

Seeing this latest episode, damm how strong is Uub going to be?

More like Oob will stay at the same strength and Goku will lower his strength to accommodate Oob's.