Well to be fair, one involved Goku being caught by Beerus' tail and one involved Vegeta being caught by Beerus' foot. It's not exactly an unrestrained martial attack but it should still have far more power behind it than the restrained flick or poke.Goku literally gets ten times stronger and is still weaker than Beerus, obviously an attack from Beerus at even half power would vaporize Goku at that point.
That only becomes an issue later though. There's nothing in the Gotenks scene indicating that he was disobeying the ordersdbzfan7 wrote:He has no issue with not killing them earlier after one hiccup. Has no issue beating the shit out of them. Then has no issue blasting them to smithereens once he's done. I don't see where he's holding back. Not one shit is given. He has Vegeta's personality and doesn't seem to want to absorb anyone else.
That's not actually my focus here. I'm not even sure what's the strength difference you're arguing for. I just disagree with the idea that Copy Vegeta was attacking with his full power and had no reason at all to hold back, considering, aside from his comments about Trunks, how he had just received orders to absorb him and there's nothing in that scene indicating that he was disobeying those orders. The goo commander didn't get worried about him killing their prey or anything like that at that point.Again I keep pointing this out a million times. He could still non lethally one shot Gotenks if he was that strong, even if he was holding back for some reason. If he's that much stronger and didn't want to kill the boys (which he did), he could punch them once in the gut, and end the fight right there. But he couldn't. What stops him from simply OHKOing Gotenks right away?
I'm not going to argue this again and again. I've seen what happens in this thread. I'm stopping right here on that, and am not wasting my time going back and forth. It'll never go anywhere.Neon Z wrote:That only becomes an issue later though. There's nothing in the Gotenks scene indicating that he was disobeying the ordersdbzfan7 wrote:He has no issue with not killing them earlier after one hiccup. Has no issue beating the shit out of them. Then has no issue blasting them to smithereens once he's done. I don't see where he's holding back. Not one shit is given. He has Vegeta's personality and doesn't seem to want to absorb anyone else.
That's not actually my focus here. I'm not even sure what's the strength difference you're arguing for. I just disagree with the idea that Copy Vegeta was attacking with his full power and had no reason at all to hold back, considering, aside from his comments about Trunks, how he had just received orders to absorb him and there's nothing in that scene indicating that he was disobeying those orders. The goo commander didn't get worried about him killing their prey or anything like that at that point.Again I keep pointing this out a million times. He could still non lethally one shot Gotenks if he was that strong, even if he was holding back for some reason. If he's that much stronger and didn't want to kill the boys (which he did), he could punch them once in the gut, and end the fight right there. But he couldn't. What stops him from simply OHKOing Gotenks right away?
Actually, my post wasn't specifically pertaining to Piccolo's increase; its purpose was to emphasize the fact that unexplainable power increases are basically of the norm, as we've had a number of such instances scattered throughout the series. Also, at what point would Piccolo have even been able to step into the RoSaT? Even if he were granted such a luxury, the little time he would have had in there would likely have been a mere fraction of 8 months.LowRyder2005 wrote:GT Goku who trains with someone around Buu's strenght for years and years would be a much, much more suitable explanation for being drastically stronger, unlike Piccolo's argument here.So?
The absence of any statements pertaining to Piccolo surpassing Buu, Gotenks, or whoever could very well be attributed to the fact that surpassing said fighters is no longer an impressive feat and is therefore not even worth mentioning.
I mean GT Base Goku presumably started the series off several tiers stronger than his SSJ3 incarnation from the Buu arc; this is just an example of how absurd power increases can be.
The story already disproved the notion that Piccolo can become much stronger than what he already is without a proper plot device, since he supposedly trains like he does in the years after the Cell saga and at most he gets marginally stronger. Against Super Buu he feels like he can't do much, supposedly, even if he trained for two or three years. If you want to be coherent with this extreme take on Piccolo's strenght, you'd have to argue that by entering the ROSAT and training with Gotenks for half-a-day he would've become as strong as Buutenks or Buuhan. And this goes against everything we have been shown.
Hence, Piccolo is still where he was or is again only marginally stronger if you give value to some shred of narrative continuity. If you start bringing in out-of-universe explanation as "Toriyama forgets about continuity" then I'd dare say it makes no sense to post in a thread which deals with the question from an in-universe point-of-view and tries to think about things from that line of reasoning in the first place.
You're kidding right? I was laughing at your nonsense; which I felt held nothing short of a passive aggressive tone itself. In any case, I didn't interpret that particular part of your post as a counter-argument at all, as you telling me where it makes sense to post or not post is something that a mod should be doing. But again, this thread is not strictly limited to in-universe posts, so I found it utterly ridiculous that you would even tell me otherwise.LowRyder2005 wrote:Hahaha! Seriously, don't you get tired of this passive-aggressive jabs? I mean, this isn't even the first time you try to address the poster instead of the content of the post. Moreover, if voicing a counter-argument to your personal convictions is trying to act like a mod, we'd do well to post in separate blogs.
Plus, if I remember correctly but I'm pretty sure I do, half of your posts in this thread are something among the lines of "my oh my, it's soooo silly to cram everyone in a watered down tier list, you people just can't accept this or that", basically.
And no, I believe you have the intellectual capacity to understand that saying that the story already proved that Piccolo couldn't get much stronger is an in-universe observation based... on the context of the story, exactly; arguing that Piccolo became stronger just because Toriyama wrote it, maybe forgetting whatever narrative continuity was already established is an out-of-universe one.
But if you argue that Piccolo couldn't enter the ROSAT when he was on the look-out for like half of the Buu Saga and could just, y'know, kick Gotenks out of it because of his gigantic gains which surely would put him on par with a SS God... yeah, I'm sure we're seeing this eye to eye.
By all means, have a great day. Among the blatant disinformation/misconceptions, the temper-tantrums and the wonky logic you're implementing here and there, I feel like I'm talking with your average angsty 15-year old.supercat wrote:You're kidding right? I was laughing at your nonsense; which I felt held nothing short of a passive aggressive tone itself. In any case, I didn't interpret that particular part of your post as a counter-argument at all, as you telling me where it makes sense to post or not post is something that a mod should be doing. But again, this thread is not strictly limited to in-universe posts, so I found it utterly ridiculous that you would even tell me otherwise.LowRyder2005 wrote:Hahaha! Seriously, don't you get tired of these passive-aggressive jabs? I mean, this isn't even the first time you try to address the poster instead of the content of the post. Moreover, if voicing a counter-argument to your personal convictions is trying to act like a mod, we'd do well to post in separate blogs.
Plus, if I remember correctly but I'm pretty sure I do, half of your posts in this thread are something among the lines of "my oh my, it's soooo silly to cram everyone in a watered down tier list, you people just can't accept this or that", basically.
And no, I believe you have the intellectual capacity to understand that saying that the story already proved that Piccolo couldn't get much stronger is an in-universe observation based... on the context of the story, exactly; arguing that Piccolo became stronger just because Toriyama wrote it, maybe forgetting whatever narrative continuity was already established is an out-of-universe one.
But if you argue that Piccolo couldn't enter the ROSAT when he was on the look-out for like half of the Buu Saga and could just, y'know, kick Gotenks out of it because of his gigantic gains which surely would put him on par with a SS God... yeah, I'm sure we're seeing this eye to eye.
Yup, nothing wrong with pointing out how some fans can't accept the truth, and as a result must resort to some watered down scale that basically defies the show's track record of progressively strengthening characters while introducing new ones who completely tower over their predecessors.
Um Piccolo was standing around the RoSaT... yeah... and who was breathing down his neck the entire time? Oh, that's right, the arc's main villain. Oh but wait! I thought Super Buu had the patience to just sit around all day and give everyone a free pass to the RoSaT!
The story basically determines how powerful a character becomes. When the fuck have power increases ever been consistent and/or based on some magical equation that limits particular characters to a set amount? And yes, saying that the story disproved a specific turn of events is really no different than saying the writer chose a particular route. If you really want to keep things strictly in-universe, Piccolo's power increases have been sporadic; he's gained varying levels of strength all throughout the series. This could very well be another example of that.
Post on separate blogs? You're the one who responded to my post initially, so why suggest otherwise?
Seriously, I could go on all day, but I have far better ways to spend my time than to delve into some narrow-minded discussion, so I'll leave it at that.
If you act and think like that, I do think you need a blog.Yup, nothing wrong with pointing out how some fans can't accept the truth... BECAUSE THOU SHALL KNOW THAT I SPEAK THE TRUTH, MORTALS!
I agree but I am one of these people ;P. Either kaioken x10 is only anime stuff or it is indeed that kaioken only multiply untransformed state, weither it is god ki or no, it doesn't matter just no transformation can be included in kaioken. Either way I won't retcoon beerus and pl with kaioken x10 goku unless it happens in the manga.Bullza wrote:Well I ain't reading all that but try to take it easy and not get the thread locked.
I do think looking at it from an out of Universe perspective is necessary sometimes. For example the scene where Goku used Kaioken x10 with his SSJB and a few people theorised that it was just multiplying his non God Ki by 10 fold.
Nobody watching is gonna think that. All these kids watching the show aren't going to be thinking thats what he's doing and the writers wouldn't expect anyone to be thinking that especially without it being implied let alone made clear.
In filler, we see that after Raditz, Piccolo could create a doppelganger to spar with. This filler was Toriyama's ideas, and we've seen at least once before that Toriyama's filler ideas are part of his head canon, like the Tsufruians' backstory.Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I honestly think the Boo saga just didn't want Piccolo to be paired with the Saiyans. It's why he was considered to be trash (along with Krillin) by Bobbidi before they even knew the Saiyans could transform, why Goku wanted Piccolo to instruct the kids on how to master the dance, and why he just had a babysitting role throughout. After the 23rd Budokai, Piccolo trained for 5 yrs and didn't change much at all. Piccolo was able to surpass Raditz while watching over Gohan and training him how to fight.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
So are you somehow implying that age is of value in a discussion like this, and that you're somehow better than a 15 year old, simply because you're an adult? Why should age even matter? You yourself just indicated that it's a manga for children right? Not that it holds any relevance, but to give you some insight, I've been a fan for nearly two decades; nonchalantly playing guessing games about variables that have nothing to do with the discussion itself doesn't really serve a purpose. Again, this is becoming a narrow-minded, cluster-ridden joke of a discussion.LowRyder2005 wrote:By all means, have a great day. Among the blatant disinformation/misconceptions, the temper-tantrums and the wonky logic you're implementing here and there, I feel like I'm talking with your average angsty 15-year old.supercat wrote:You're kidding right? I was laughing at your nonsense; which I felt held nothing short of a passive aggressive tone itself. In any case, I didn't interpret that particular part of your post as a counter-argument at all, as you telling me where it makes sense to post or not post is something that a mod should be doing. But again, this thread is not strictly limited to in-universe posts, so I found it utterly ridiculous that you would even tell me otherwise.LowRyder2005 wrote:Hahaha! Seriously, don't you get tired of these passive-aggressive jabs? I mean, this isn't even the first time you try to address the poster instead of the content of the post. Moreover, if voicing a counter-argument to your personal convictions is trying to act like a mod, we'd do well to post in separate blogs.
Plus, if I remember correctly but I'm pretty sure I do, half of your posts in this thread are something among the lines of "my oh my, it's soooo silly to cram everyone in a watered down tier list, you people just can't accept this or that", basically.
And no, I believe you have the intellectual capacity to understand that saying that the story already proved that Piccolo couldn't get much stronger is an in-universe observation based... on the context of the story, exactly; arguing that Piccolo became stronger just because Toriyama wrote it, maybe forgetting whatever narrative continuity was already established is an out-of-universe one.
But if you argue that Piccolo couldn't enter the ROSAT when he was on the look-out for like half of the Buu Saga and could just, y'know, kick Gotenks out of it because of his gigantic gains which surely would put him on par with a SS God... yeah, I'm sure we're seeing this eye to eye.
Yup, nothing wrong with pointing out how some fans can't accept the truth, and as a result must resort to some watered down scale that basically defies the show's track record of progressively strengthening characters while introducing new ones who completely tower over their predecessors.
Um Piccolo was standing around the RoSaT... yeah... and who was breathing down his neck the entire time? Oh, that's right, the arc's main villain. Oh but wait! I thought Super Buu had the patience to just sit around all day and give everyone a free pass to the RoSaT!
The story basically determines how powerful a character becomes. When the fuck have power increases ever been consistent and/or based on some magical equation that limits particular characters to a set amount? And yes, saying that the story disproved a specific turn of events is really no different than saying the writer chose a particular route. If you really want to keep things strictly in-universe, Piccolo's power increases have been sporadic; he's gained varying levels of strength all throughout the series. This could very well be another example of that.
Post on separate blogs? You're the one who responded to my post initially, so why suggest otherwise?
Seriously, I could go on all day, but I have far better ways to spend my time than to delve into some narrow-minded discussion, so I'll leave it at that.
I seriously hope you're not as old as I am, for one, I'd find quite demoralizing that an adult person could be so ill-tempered not to even comprehend my invite to take it easier over discussing of the strenght levels of a manga for children, but oh, well.
First off, you, like, totally have no clue or feign ignorance about what it means to debate from a point-of-view internal to the narration (feign ignorance or you're just pulling my leg): Dragon Ball Super is supposed to follow Dragon Ball, and - in Dragon Ball - Piccolo immediately abandons the idea to face Fat Buu or to train in order to face Fat Buu. That means that no matter how long he trained (years, since he had access to the ROSAT), he thought Trunks and Goten would have been the best bet (actually, if you remembered the manga, he expressly says it in one panel). Dragon Ball Super follows the same continuity, so it makes sense to say that until we are told otherwise, the most probable explanation is that he couldn't back then and still couldn't do it (hidden agendas don't exactly follow the rule of Occam's Razor).
Besides, dude, do you even remember the Buu Saga at all? Piccolo is always on the lookout even before Super Buu is around. He's even there when Fat Buu is waiting for "a strong fighter", the boys learned the Fusion... Super Saiyan and Fusion and so on. What exactly stops him to enter the ROSAT himself according to you (if anything to help the boys out) while the little ones are resting or something, instead of waiting around, is beyond me.
So why would this theory of Piccolo becoming uber-strong be a plothole or bad/lazy writing? Because the writing expressly told us that Piccolo didn't even dream of surpassing Fat Buu in some years of ROSAT training. And of course it didn't happen, Piccolo training in the years following the Cell Saga barely increased his power at all.
See what I mentioned there? Writing. Something that pertains to our world.
That's why - when a plothole appears, something that defies a piece of narrative's internal logic - you have to implement these little, beautiful things pertaining to the realm of extradiegetic elements (while to discuss about "how can a character can become stronger" pertains to the intradiegetic realm, you say "I can say Goku got stronger because he trained", not "I can say Goku got strong because that's how it was written... that's pleonastic, right?).
If you say that "Piccolo got stronger because Toriyama won't give a rat's ass about narrative coherence"... that's an out-of-(Dragon Ball's)-universe explanation. And it makes no sense if a topic tries to find the narrative coherence of a story from the inside, like what all the dozens and dozens of "power level topics" try to do.
That was my argument. It's inherently off-topic because that's not what the topic is trying to do. It's like discussing "why do you think in the movie X the character Y did Z" and answer "because the actor wanted to". Well, no shit Sherlock, but you're not answering the question.
But of course, you had to twist my words saying that I didn't find any concrete reason to post out-of-universe explanation in an in-universe topic as... *sigh*... mini-modding (don't remember what you called me last time, uh... was it that I was rambling incoherently or something, being partial or what?), when I never said that I was prohibiting you to do it. This thread definitely is not my home, and I wouldn't ask to wipe your feet before entering.
Moreover, it's not like Piccolo had this hidden potential which could magically explode at random times: the observation was made a dozen of times or so in this very thread, but I'll gladly present it to you again. He got stronger than Goku by training with King Kai because he was stronger than him in the first place, then he fused, then he became stronger by training with Super Saiyan Goku, then he had hit his plateau and needed a new body, then he hit his plateau again and in years and years of additional training he won't even surpass SS2 Gohan. You see no continuity or sense behind those power-ups? I happen to do. And the continuity I see is telling me Piccolo hit a ceiling, and every time he surpassed Goku we had a very rational reason, narrative-wise, presented to us. No reason to believe that he became drastically stronger with just six months of his regular training, especially with a seriously weaker Gohan.
That's about "storytelling 101", apparently I needed to make a wall-post about it. I hope it'll suffice.
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot.
If you act and think like that, I do think you need a blog.Yup, nothing wrong with pointing out how some fans can't accept the truth... BECAUSE THOU SHALL KNOW THAT I SPEAK THE TRUTH, MORTALS!
How so? The only measurement of Beerus power in the manga is that he was entertained by SSJG Goku, which might mean anything really. Goku can use 10x and it would still be plausible that he's behind Beerus. Altought I think they'll use regular Kaioken.Bullza wrote:We'll know in a few weeks but I expect that Kaioken will be used against Hit but I have doubts that it will specifically be 10x. It'll probably just be the regular Kaioken though that would still suggest Beerus' power has been retconned the same.
I meant from how he was written originally in the Battle of Gods movie when he was less than twice as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku.How so?
There's no problem in creating a plot hole. For me the problem is logic. Goku was saying he could fail and Kaioken would kill or wreck his whole body. Fine, then why after succeeding did he turn it up x10? Wouldn't that instantly kill him, if he hadn't mastered the technique? That's how we were show the Kaioken before, Goku didn't risk go much farther until he got better at it. There's progression.Khin wrote:Whats the problem if the manga will have Goku using Kaio-ken x10 ? Even in the anime, the only problem with it was the 10% line, but that line was nowhere to be found in the manga. So even if Goku will use Kaio-ken x10 in the manga and will still be weaker than Beers, there would be no problem. Since no 10% and 70% line.
