Consistency of Power in Z?

[BloodThirstJ]

I'm gonna be honest, I am new to the kanzenshuu forums. Not to kanzenshuu though, now that I got that out of the way I'll start. There are many "canon" and "non-canon" related material in dragonball. Let's just say we're gonna throw that out the window with this topic. It doesn't really matter to discuss this, how is it that Vegitos multiplier is X times Y? Without the power consistency being blown completely out of the window. With something like that, literally just about every future character in dragonball is f**ked. So mainly what I want to talk about is, do you guys think inconsistencies like these, are made by Toei? Toriyama? All around? What's your honest opinion on who creates most of these inconsistencies.

[LightBing]

Welcome to the forum!

Nobody ever mentioned any multiplier in the whole manga. The idea that static multipliers exists originated from the guides, which in my opinion aren't a reliable source since it doesn't come from the author. It's random people making stuff up.

It's even more worrisome due to the nature of the manga, it's incredible difficult to rationalize the power scale if we have to enforce rules. If one interprets the manga freely it will likely make sense, since the characters are as strong as the plot calls for them.
Not to say that Mr.Toriyama didn't have some missteps, but his work power-level wise is overall consistent.

Toei is know for not caring that much about strength perceptions for showmanship, extending fights, etc...

[theherodjl]

I'm gonna be honest, I am new to the kanzenshuu forums. Not to kanzenshuu though, now that I got that out of the way I'll start. There are many "canon" and "non-canon" related material in dragonball. Let's just say we're gonna throw that out the window with this topic. It doesn't really matter to discuss this, how is it that Vegitos multiplier is X times Y? Without the power consistency being blown completely out of the window. With something like that, literally just about every future character in dragonball is f**ked. So mainly what I want to talk about is, do you guys think inconsistencies like these, are made by Toei? Toriyama? All around? What's your honest opinion on who creates most of these inconsistencies.

Yes.
The fact of the matter is this, nothing is completely defined in DB except "on the next episode of DB, strong character goes boom!".
Proper storytelling and the establishment of power levels goes out the window just to have a character more powerful than before win the fight and you just have to accept it; Vegetto is a good example of this because he just so happens to be Goku + Vegeta multiplied by however much rivalry can boost them which is apparently a lot. Toriyama makes maybe just a little more sense than Toei does but that's not saying something anymore positive, Toriyama says Goku + Vegeta x rivalry = a SSJ more powerful than the most powerful variant of Majin Boo because really strong character while Toei states that Goku + Vegeta x rivalry = a base Saiyan more powerful than the most powerful variant of Majin Boo because really, really strong character.

[Pantalones]

How is it that Vegitos multiplier is X times Y?

Literally nothing (aside from fan-assumption) has ever said that Goku and Vegeta fusing produces a being with a power level equaling Goku's power level times Vegeta's power level, all measured on the obsolete scale used by Freeza's army and their scouters.

Power levels on that scale had fallen into disuse for two whole storylines at the point in the series that Potara fusion is introduced, and even now there aren't any official "power level lists" that go beyond Freeza's fight on Namek (unless you want to count Trunks' heavily suppressed power coming up as a 5, anyway... but either way, the scouter's power level system is something that dies with Freeza.)

That "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" thing is most likely just a weird Japanese video game-ish/anime-ish way of simplifying the fusion process down to pictures. It's not intended to be a mathematical formula. It's just "Goku crossed with Vegeta makes Vegetto." The letter X does tend to be used to mean "cross" or "crossed with" in a lot of Japanese things, after all.

[Grimlock]

How is it that Vegitos multiplier is X times Y?

Literally nothing (aside from fan-assumption) has ever said that Goku and Vegeta fusing produces a being with a power level equaling Goku's power level times Vegeta's power level, all measured on the obsolete scale used by Freeza's army and their scouters.

That "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" thing is most likely just a weird Japanese video game-ish/anime-ish way of simplifying the fusion process down to pictures. It's not intended to be a mathematical formula. It's just "Goku crossed with Vegeta makes Vegetto." The letter X does tend to be used to mean "cross" or "crossed with" in a lot of Japanese things, after all.

Are you sure?

Super Exciting Guide has this to say about:

[ekrolo2]

Toriyama made some weird things happen with power levels too but what he did throughout most of the series is a consistent power hierarchy. A hierarchy that he adhered to pretty well. For example, he establishes that "Super Vegeta" can trounce someone of Semi-Perfect Cell's caliber and that's how it stays, Vegeta doesn't randomly become weaker to facilitate a victory (he just gets stupider along with everyone in that situation) for the villain to win nor does Toriyama give Cell a random power increase to let him beat Vegeta.

This might seem like a no shit type of thing but it's something a surprising amount of shonen manga screw a LOT.

I think it also helps that Toriyama, despite creating a big divide in strength between Saiyan's and everyone else, always kept them reasonable enough to know where everyone stands or to give the reader enough information to infer on where they stand. It also helps he created comparison between characters to give people an idea where say Goku after waking up from his coma stands in relation to Vegeta and the 17 & 18.

The current issue is that the gap between everyone and Beerus & Whis is so vast, and there are actually 0 comparisons being drawn between characters of the past that you just have this weird vacuum where everyone's (apparently) supposed to be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (who's power is never seen as an SSJ1, never mind him on level 3) but still ambiguously and considerably weaker than Beerus and Whis.

[Speedster]

Super Exciting Guide has this to say about:

This Vegetto=Goku*Vegeta statement is on page 62 of the Super Exciting Guide (SEG), and comes directly after the star number system of performance charts introduced in pages 43-59. I am not sure whether it was explicitly referring to the scouter “battle power levels”. If not it may just be multiplication of the star numbers of pages 43-59 which is an entirely different scale of course.

Also for the record guidebooks also give SSJ1 Gogeta (who is far above Janemba who outclasses SSJ3 Goku) a power level of around 2.5 billion. That is just about 16x the guidebooks’ power level of SSJ1 Goku versus Freeza in the Namek saga and SEG states that SSJ3=SSJ1x8. Point is that none of these guidebooks has any authority over Toriyama’s thoughts while writing the manga. Even worse in SEG, Toriyama says in the interview that at the time (year 2009) he had forgotten a great deal about Dragonball.

To be honest, I’ve forgotten quite a lot of the story and events in Dragon Ball

And apparently he also later forgot a great deal of what he told the SEG editors too as in 2014 he entirely retconned the lore of Kaioshins that he introduced in SEG in 2009.

So yeah I wouldn't put too much faith in what SEG says about anything, let alone about Vegetto having a power level equal to the product of power levels of Goku and Vegeta.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Gogeta power level is listed in a V-Jump article for Budokai 3, along with, I believe, the 470 Million for Cooler's fifth form, and one other one that I cannot recall at the moment.

"The guidebooks" are not one big conglomerate entity. V-Jump is a video game magazine, the Daizenshuu are a series of encyclopedias for the series, the pamphlets with the Movie 3 battle powers are basically brochures for the movie, etc.

[Grimlock]

Also for the record guidebooks also give SSJ1 Gogeta (who is far above Janemba who outclasses SSJ3 Goku) a power level of around 2.5 billion.

So yeah I wouldn't put too much faith in what SEG says about anything, let alone about Vegetto having a power level equal to the product of power levels of Goku and Vegeta.

As said by Kamiccolo9, none guidebook states Gogeta's power level. That "2.5 billion" comes from a V-Jump scan related all about Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3.

And if you think deeply, you'll see that multiplication is far more applicable than sum. Take Piccolo's power level (whatever that is) and sums it with Nail's power level, the result wouldn't be enough to take on Freeza. But if you multiplicate both numbers... You'll see that it's more likely and accurate.

[Speedster]

"The Gogeta power level is listed in a V-Jump article for Budokai 3, along with, I believe, the 470 Million for Cooler's fifth form, and one other one that I cannot recall at the moment.

The other is SSJ Broly being 1.4 billion.

"The guidebooks" are not one big conglomerate entity. V-Jump is a video game magazine, the Daizenshuu are a series of encyclopedias for the series, the pamphlets with the Movie 3 battle powers are basically brochures for the movie, etc.

First of all, last time I checked "Z" (which in the thread title) referred to the anime adaptation of chapters 195-519 of the manga. Second what makes a Shueisha published guidebook more valid than another Shueisha published guidebook? Toriyama's level of contribution? Prove me then that Toriyama actively contributed to SEG the statement of Vegetto=Goku*Vegeta. Not to mention that even if he did I would still take it with a grain of salt as he admitted he had forgotten a great deal of Dragonball when that guidebook was produced. In any case you have to have a lot of faith in order to believe that guidebooks (ANY guidebook including the Daizenshuus) represent Toriyama's true vision in any shape or form.

At least I find it more believable that in the anime and movies' guidebooks we had some direct input from those involved in the production of the anime/movies. Right or wrong it's at least the logic they went by while adapting the manga into the anime or producing the movies. And their logic seems pretty consistent as far as the treatment of the Super Saiyan multiplier goes - which is more like an effective/apparent 3-4x multiplier (it appears as a multiplication while in fact is likely a boost). Base Vegetto is probably around SSJ3 Goku level so SSJ Vegetto being like 3-4x more powerful than SSJ3 Goku is not that outside the realm of possibility.

Spoiler:

1. In GT episode 19, after Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan Rildo said that up to that point (i.e. while Goku was using his base form) Goku was not using "half of his power".
2. In the anime base Gohan could hold his own against supressed Dabura
3. In the manga (chapter 515) base Vegeta survived against Kid Buu
4. In the manga base Adult Saiyans were considered superior to Piccolo by Dabura
5. When Goku transformed into SSJ against Yakkon he went from being at least on par with Yakkon (800 kili) to 3000kili. (More likely from 1000 to 3000).

[Captain Strawberry]

I think we shouldn't really think about how far characters are apart in strength than we will all have an easier time.

[Pantalones]

Are you sure?

Super Exciting Guide has this to say about:

This is literally just "that Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto thing" that I mentioned before.

Unless the text bubble in the lower-left says something more specific than that (I can't actually read Japanese -- well, not kanji at least), posting a guidebook snippet doesn't really add anything here.

And if you think deeply, you'll see that multiplication is far more applicable than sum. Take Piccolo's power level (whatever that is) and sums it with Nail's power level, the result wouldn't be enough to take on Freeza. But if you multiplicate both numbers... You'll see that it's more likely and accurate.

And what we have right here is a perfect example of a false dichotomy -- presenting two possibilities as if they were the only possibilities in a situation where they aren't actually the only possibilities.

Just because fusion can't be just plain addition of the two powers doesn't mean it has to be multiplication of them.

And I'm not sure why you bring up Piccolo and Nail's fusion, as that's definitely not something that points toward an "X times Y" formula for fusion. Piccolo after fusing with Nail definitely wasn't "Piccolo's power times Nail's power" -- Nail was at 42,000... multiply that by the 2 or 3 thousand that Piccolo had during the Nappa fight and Freeza would've needed his 100% just to have a chance (and that's assuming Piccolo didn't get one bit stronger during his time on Kaio's -- multiplication works even less well if you have him getting any stronger at all!) Instead, Freeza's second form (around 100x weaker than his full power!) was roughly even with Piccolo. Nail fusing with Piccolo is clearly NOT a multiplication of their power levels.

[BloodThirstJ]

Welcome to the forum!

Nobody ever mentioned any multiplier in the whole manga. The idea that static multipliers exists originated from the guides, which in my opinion aren't a reliable source since it doesn't come from the author. It's random people making stuff up.

It's even more worrisome due to the nature of the manga, it's incredible difficult to rationalize the power scale if we have to enforce rules. If one interprets the manga freely it will likely make sense, since the characters are as strong as the plot calls for them.
Not to say that Mr.Toriyama didn't have some missteps, but his work power-level wise is overall consistent.

Toei is know for not caring that much about strength perceptions for showmanship, extending fights, etc...

Thank you for the input and it's good to see all of you are so knowledgeable. I guess it's true that the Toei seems to be the start of these inconsistencies. It is true, I guess we shouldn't consider anything outside of what the author says reliable.

[Grimlock]

This is literally just "that Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto thing" that I mentioned before.

Unless the text bubble in the lower-left says something more specific than that (I can't actually read Japanese -- well, not kanji at least), posting a guidebook snippet doesn't really add anything here.

Actually it does. You firstly said it comes from fans assumptions and then you said it comes from video-games, when it actually comes from an official guidebook. It has the same "level of importance" as the Super Saiyan forms multiplication. Whether you accept it or not is another matter.

[TheMikado]

The best Fusion estimates I have seen have been (Potential A + Potential B) X 2 = fused entity

[Desassina]

It has to be more than that. SSJ Gogeta was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in Movie 12, for example, so that would make (A + B) * 10, which is the same as multiplying one's power by 20, and then by 50 with SSJ. A power level of 1'000 compared to 400 sounds about right. None of this has to matter in canon, and Vegetto has always been depicted by the media as a rival to Gogeta, so his power should be close. There's obvious differences in usefulness, and what fans consider to be a rival boost, though.

[TheMikado]

It has to be more than that. SSJ Gogeta was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in Movie 12, for example, so that would make (A + B) * 10, which is the same as multiplying one's power by 20, and then by 50 with SSJ. A power level of 1'000 compared to 400 sounds about right. None of this has to matter in canon, and Vegetto has always been depicted by the media as a rival to Gogeta, so his power should be close. There's obvious differences in usefulness, and what fans consider to be a rival boost, though.

Potential would be SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta x 2. i.e. If we used power level multipliers assuming 1 as a base it would look like this.

(400 + 100)x2 = 1000 Vegetto So SSJ3 Goku would probably be less than half as powerful as a SSJ Vegetto.

Toriyama made some weird things happen with power levels too but what he did throughout most of the series is a consistent power hierarchy. A hierarchy that he adhered to pretty well. For example, he establishes that "Super Vegeta" can trounce someone of Semi-Perfect Cell's caliber and that's how it stays, Vegeta doesn't randomly become weaker to facilitate a victory (he just gets stupider along with everyone in that situation) for the villain to win nor does Toriyama give Cell a random power increase to let him beat Vegeta.

This might seem like a no shit type of thing but it's something a surprising amount of shonen manga screw a LOT.

I think it also helps that Toriyama, despite creating a big divide in strength between Saiyan's and everyone else, always kept them reasonable enough to know where everyone stands or to give the reader enough information to infer on where they stand. It also helps he created comparison between characters to give people an idea where say Goku after waking up from his coma stands in relation to Vegeta and the 17 & 18.

The current issue is that the gap between everyone and Beerus & Whis is so vast, and there are actually 0 comparisons being drawn between characters of the past that you just have this weird vacuum where everyone's (apparently) supposed to be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (who's power is never seen as an SSJ1, never mind him on level 3) but still ambiguously and considerably weaker than Beerus and Whis.

Preach!

[Desassina]

Ah, I must have missed the potential part. It's funny how it ended up being the same. However, how would you justify Goten and Trunks reaching SSJ3 levels with low potential (at the time) compared to the adults? (50 + 50) * 2 = 200, which stands between a single SSJ2 and SSJ3.

[TheMikado]

Ah, I must have missed the potential part. It's funny how it ended up being the same. However, how would you justify Goten and Trunks reaching SSJ3 levels with low potential (at the time) compared to the adults? (50 + 50) * 2 = 200, which stands between a single SSJ2 and SSJ3.

That looks fine to me personally. We know they were stronger than Vegeta and I thought less than SSJ3 Goku. Maybe I'm misremembering that though?