Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

On the subject of Gohan, does anyone else think he's a LOT weaker in BOG/the Beerus arc than he was in the Buu arc? We know that by the time of ROF, maybe a year later, he's weaker than he was at the beginning of the Buu arc, as he can't use SS2, has trouble with just SS, and is considered much less useful than Mr. Buu. Since Beerus arrives four years after Buu, it would seem very odd if he was equally as strong as he was when fighting Evil Buu despite such a severe amount of slacking, when just a few more months of slacking brought him so low.

IMO things could go like this:

Ultimate Gohan (Buu) > Ultimate Gohan (Champa) > Ultimate Gohan (Beerus) >>>> Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (25th Budokai) > Super Saiyan Gohan (25th Budokai) >= Super Saiyan Gohan (ROF)

Beerus-era Gohan wouldn't be far off from SS3 Goku at the time, so Vegeta being freaked out by Goku getting one-shotted would make sense, though still stronger as that seems to be what was implied by him getting his own mini cliffhanger and NEP and Vegeta implying he still knows of someone stronger than Goku despite being surprised by Beerus.

So I guess you came around with Piccolo getting stronger as hell then?

[Chiki]

Well, the two base theory sure has become a lot stronger since I took a break from the forum!

No it hasn't. In fact because once again it was not brought up when Goku fought Beerus in base it continues to make the theory less likely the more episodes that pass.

Also the third theory wasn't that he was SSJ3 level but SSJ3 level+. Which if he's not at Super Saiyan God level in base would still technically be true. In between SSJ3 and SSJG. Now it can be narrowed down further to say Mystic Gohan level+.

Option 1 is most likely now, if not then Option 3. Option 2 it certainly isn't.

Even if Toriyama himself told you that you're wrong, I doubt you would listen.

As usual, your argument is obviously wrong since Base Goku did extremely well against Beerus going all out (100% or close to that, since Beerus himself said he would try to end it quickly) in Monaka's costume in ep 43. Ultimate Gohan got owned by less than 10% Beerus even touching him at the start of Super (he hit him with Buu). BULMA performed better than Ultimate Gohan against less than 10% Beerus.

Do you honestly think Ultimate Gohan would do so well against 100% Beerus in Monaka's outfit? Not happening.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is how I think things are in the Super anime (previous incarnations, dead people, strongest state):

Zenno
Zenno's Guards
Vados|Whis
Beerus|Champa
Hit with fully improved Tokitobashi|Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Hit with Tokitobashi
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku|Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta|Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit
Auta Magetta
Super Saiyan Son Goku|Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan God Goku [BoG]
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto [BoG]
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta [BoG]
Super Saiyan Vegetto [BoG]
Assault Form Frost
Son Goku|Vegeta|Copy-Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Cabba
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku [BoG]
Vegetto [BoG]
Piccolo|Ultimate Son Gohan|Super Saiyan Ultimate Son Gohan
Frost
Freeza
Botamo
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Son Gohan [FnF]
Super Saiyan Gotenks
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku|Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta [BoG]
Ginyu-Tagoma
Super Saiyan Son Goku|Super Saiyan Vegeta [BoG]
Super Saiyan Son Goten|Super Saiyan Trunks
Tagoma|Son Gohan [FnF]
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]
Gotenks
Full Power Freeza [pre-training]
Son Goku|Vegeta [BoG]
Son Goten|Trunks
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Freeza [pre-training]
Chaozu
Tagoma [pre-training]
Freeza Soldiers
Gryll|Copy-Gryll
Freeza Soldiers
Gryll's hencmen|Gryll's Copy-henchmen
Freeza Soldiers
Max-Power Kame-sennin
Freeza Soldiers
Kame-sennin
Freeza Soldiers
Jaco
Freeza Soldiers
Mr. Satan
Sorbet

EDIT: Changed SS3 Goku

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I agree with most of that.

[ssbgoku]

This is how I think things are in the Super anime (previous incarnations, dead people, strongest state):

Zenno
Zenno's Guards
Vados|Whis
Beerus|Champa
Hit with fully improved Tokitobashi|Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Hit with Tokitobashi
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku|Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta|Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit
Auta Magetta
Super Saiyan Son Goku|Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan God Goku [BoG]
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto [BoG]
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta [BoG]
Super Saiyan Vegetto [BoG]
Assault Form Frost
Son Goku|Vegeta|Copy-Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Cabba
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku [BoG]
Vegetto [BoG]
Piccolo|Ultimate Son Gohan|Super Saiyan Ultimate Son Gohan
Frost
Freeza
Botamo
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Son Gohan [FnF]
Super Saiyan Gotenks
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku|Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta [BoG]
Ginyu-Tagoma
Super Saiyan Son Goku|Super Saiyan Vegeta [BoG]
Super Saiyan Son Goten|Super Saiyan Trunks
Tagoma|Son Gohan [FnF]
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]
Gotenks
Full Power Freeza [pre-training]
Son Goku|Vegeta [BoG]
Son Goten|Trunks
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Freeza [pre-training]
Chaozu
Tagoma [pre-training]
Freeza Soldiers
Gryll|Copy-Gryll
Freeza Soldiers
Gryll's hencmen|Gryll's Copy-henchmen
Freeza Soldiers
Max-Power Kame-sennin
Freeza Soldiers
Kame-sennin
Freeza Soldiers
Jaco
Freeza Soldiers
Mr. Satan
Sorbet

EDIT: Changed SS3 Goku

Zenno
Zenno's Guards
Vados|Whis
Beerus|Champa
Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Hit with fully improved Tokitobashi
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Hit with Tokitobashi
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku|Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta|Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit
Auta Magetta
Super Saiyan Son Goku|Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan God Goku [BoG]
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto [BoG]
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost[/b]
Super Saiyan Vegetto [BoG]
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta [BoG]
Assault Form Frost
Son Goku|Vegeta|Copy-Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Cabba
Vegetto [BoG]
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku [BoG]
Piccolo|Ultimate Son Gohan|Super Saiyan Ultimate Son Gohan
Frost
Freeza
Botamo
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan Gotenks
Super Saiyan Son Gohan [FnF]
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku|Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta [BoG]
Ginyu-Tagoma
Super Saiyan Son Goku|Super Saiyan Vegeta [BoG]
Super Saiyan Son Goten|Super Saiyan Trunks
Tagoma|Son Gohan [FnF]
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]
Gotenks
Full Power Freeza [pre-training]
Son Goku|Vegeta [BoG]
Son Goten|Trunks
Freeza [pre-training]
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Tagoma [pre-training]
Gryll|Copy-Gryll
Gryll's hencmen|Gryll's Copy-henchmen
Jaco
Sorbet
Freeza Soldiers/Max-Power Kame-sennin
Kame-sennin
Mr. Satan

Here I copied it and changed it slightly xd

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Zenno
Zenno's Guards
Vados|Whis
Beerus|Champa
Hit with fully improved Tokitobashi|Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Hit with Tokitobashi
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku|Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta|Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Son Goku|Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan God Goku [BoG]
Super Saiyan Cabba
Auta Magetta
Final Form Frost
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto [BoG]
Piccolo
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta [BoG]
Super Saiyan Vegetto [BoG]
Son Goku|Vegeta|Copy-Vegeta/Assault Form Frost
Final Form Freeza
Cabba
Frost
Freeza
Botamo
Vegetto [BoG]
Ultimate Son Gohan|Super Saiyan Ultimate Son Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Son Gohan [FnF]
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku [BoG]
Super Saiyan Gotenks
Ginyu-Tagoma
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku|Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta [BoG]
Super Saiyan Son Goku|Super Saiyan Vegeta [BoG]
Tagoma|Son Gohan [FnF]
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]
Super Saiyan Son Goten|Super Saiyan Trunks
Gotenks
Full Power Freeza [pre-training]
Son Goku|Vegeta [BoG]
Son Goten|Trunks
Freeza [pre-training]
Tenshinhan
Kuririn
Yamcha
Chaozu
Tagoma [pre-training]
Freeza Soldiers
Gryll|Copy-Gryll
Freeza Soldiers
Gryll's hencmen|Gryll's Copy-henchmen
Freeza Soldiers
Max-Power Kame-sennin
Freeza Soldiers
Kame-sennin
Freeza Soldiers
Jaco
Freeza Soldiers
Sorbet
Mr. Satan

[Noah]

Sorbet weaker than Mr. Satan? Please, the guy as in charge of an army in Freeza's absence... That's is too lowball

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Sorbet weaker than Mr. Satan? Please, the guy as in charge of an army in Freeza's absence... That's is too lowball

Dende is the God of Earth, yet Mr. Satan is stronger than him... Sorbet is a strategist, not a fighter.

[dbzfan7]

Sorbet weaker than Mr. Satan? Please, the guy as in charge of an army in Freeza's absence... That's is too lowball

Nothing I think says where he places on the low tier scale, so he could be stronger or weaker than Satan, and nothing would really change.

[Noah]

Dende is the God of Earth, yet Mr. Satan is stronger than him... Sorbet is a strategist, not a fighter.

Yes, but a God is different from a general, in my perspective Sorbet should be way stronger than an average human being

[ssbgoku]

Dende is the God of Earth, yet Mr. Satan is stronger than him... Sorbet is a strategist, not a fighter.

Yes, but a God is different from a general, in my perspective Sorbet should be way stronger than an average human being

I agree just see my copied list and changed from original

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Sorbet weaker than Mr. Satan? Please, the guy as in charge of an army in Freeza's absence... That's is too lowball

Dende is the God of Earth, yet Mr. Satan is stronger than him... Sorbet is a strategist, not a fighter.

No, Dende is much stronger. It is a namek a unlocked power, has a minimum power of 3,000.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Sorbet hasn't displayed any fighting skills, and even uses a weapon to attack. He is shown to be a tactician instead of a powerful fighter, he doesn't wear fighting armor, he doesn't even have the body of a fighter. I see no reason to assume that he is stronger than Mr. Satan.

Sorbet weaker than Mr. Satan? Please, the guy as in charge of an army in Freeza's absence... That's is too lowball

Dende is the God of Earth, yet Mr. Satan is stronger than him... Sorbet is a strategist, not a fighter.

No, Dende is much stronger. It is a namek a unlocked power, has a minimum power of 3,000.

Then why did Goku prefer to merge with Mr. Satan instead of Dende?

[dbzfan7]

Dende I believe had the dub state the height would be a problem. Though the manga dispels this by saying he's not a warrior/fighter. So basically if that's why Goku said no and thought Satan was the better choice, I think that confirms Satan is above Dende. Sorbet you can say whatever you want since whether he is above or weaker than Satan, means absolutely nothing to the plot.

Slighty tweeked.

Zen'O
His Attendants
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJBKKx10 Goku
Hit furthest improved
SSJBKK Goku
Hit 0.1/0.2
SSJB Goku/Vegeta/Copy Vegeta
Hit
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
Magetta
SSJ Cabba
True form Frost
Base Goku/Vegeta (Post tournament)
Third Form Frost
Tired Frost
SSJ3 Gotenks
SSJ Gohan
Piccolo/Base Gohan
1st Form Frost
Boo
Botamo
Gryphll whatever his name was.

[Chiki]

This is how I think things are in the Super anime

There's still too many problems for this list, such as:

1. Buu being too low after being hyped up by Goku and forced by Toriyama to skip the tournament. The implication here is that Buu would have creamed the opposition apart from Hit so Toriyama didn't want him in the tourney.
2. Piccolo becoming Ultimate Gohan level between end of Buu arc and RoF is just impossible. Why didn't he just use the Room of Spirit and Time to become stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks then? Because he couldn't. So this cannot be.
3. In the manga, Frost was implied by Goku to never train ("if you train, you can become stronger"). I see no reason why this should be different in the anime. How can Final Form Frost who never trains be stronger than Final Form Frieza who trained for 4 months and they're both prodigies?
4. There's no reason to think that SSJ3 BoG Goku and Piccolo etc. are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. In the manga, even SSJ post RoSaT Gotenks was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku.

These counterarguments are much more powerful than any argument you can give against the two base theory (it wasn't explained. but neither was Piccolo's insane power boost.).

Oh, here is a new argument for the two base theory. Against powerful opponents with godly strength (Frieza, Hit, Copy Vegeta) rather than opponents assumed to be weaker than Buu (Frost, Cabba, Magetta), Goku and Vegeta NEVER turn Super Saiyan Blue. Why? Likely because they're tapping into Saiyan Beyond God power for those fights. This isn't just a coincidence.

Why didn't Goku turn into Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan Blue against Final Form Frieza? Goku powered up first, not second. He didn't know about his Golden power up. Why didn't Goku turn into Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan Blue against Hit? Super Saiyan likely has less stamina issues than Blue, so why not?

All of these can be explained by saying that Goku was using Saiyan Beyond God for the powerful opponents and not the weak ones.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is how I think things are in the Super anime

There's still too many problems for this list, such as:

1. Buu being too low after being hyped up by Goku and forced by Toriyama to skip the tournament. The implication here is that Buu would have creamed the opposition apart from Hit so Toriyama didn't want him in the tourney.
2. Piccolo becoming Ultimate Gohan level between end of Buu arc and RoF is just impossible. Why didn't he just use the Room of Spirit and Time to become stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks then? Because he couldn't. So this cannot be.
3. In the manga, Frost was implied by Goku to never train ("if you train, you can become stronger"). I see no reason why this should be different in the anime. How can Final Form Frost who never trains be stronger than Final Form Frieza who trained for 4 months and they're both prodigies?
4. There's no reason to think that SSJ3 BoG Goku and Piccolo etc. are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. In the manga, even SSJ post RoSaT Gotenks was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku.

These counterarguments are much more powerful than any argument you can give against the two base theory (it wasn't explained. but neither was Piccolo's insane power boost.).

Oh, here is a new argument for the two base theory. Against powerful opponents with godly strength (Frieza, Hit, Copy Vegeta) rather than opponents weaker than Buu (Frost, Cabba, Magetta), Goku and Vegeta NEVER turn Super Saiyan Blue. Why? Likely because they're tapping into Saiyan Beyond God power for those fights.

Also, Monaka should be above everyone except Zeno. He OHKOed improved Tokitobashi Hit and SSB Copy Vegeta. The guy is ridiculously overpowered.

The anime has shitty writing when it comes to battle powers thanks to Toei, it always had. Seeing how things went in Z filler & GT, I don't see any reason to sit and find reason to ridiculous power-ups through training, they just happen.

[Chiki]

The anime has shitty writing when it comes to battle powers thanks to Toei, it always had. Seeing how things went in Z filler & GT, I don't see any reason to sit and find reason to ridiculous power-ups through training, they just happen.

But it's not Z filler or GT. Toriyama gives the outline for every arc.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Then why did Goku prefer to merge with Mr. Satan instead of Dende?

Because dende is not a fighter, and the merger will be useless if they can not fight. It's like the fusion of Kaioshin and Kibito, they achieved a great power but were useless if they knew not fight.

[Lord Beerus]

The anime has shitty writing when it comes to battle powers thanks to Toei, it always had. Seeing how things went in Z filler & GT, I don't see any reason to sit and find reason to ridiculous power-ups through training, they just happen.

But it's not Z filler or GT. Toriyama gives the outline for every arc.

I'm pretty sure all Toriyama provides is just basic notes like "Character X defeats Character Y", "Character A, B and C meet Characters E, F and G", "Character H fights Character I in a long and epic fight" or "Group R travel to Location S and talk to Characters N and M". Vague outlines for the plot in that kind of fashion and then Toei fill in all the blanks.

[RandomGuy96]

On the subject of Gohan, does anyone else think he's a LOT weaker in BOG/the Beerus arc than he was in the Buu arc? We know that by the time of ROF, maybe a year later, he's weaker than he was at the beginning of the Buu arc, as he can't use SS2, has trouble with just SS, and is considered much less useful than Mr. Buu. Since Beerus arrives four years after Buu, it would seem very odd if he was equally as strong as he was when fighting Evil Buu despite such a severe amount of slacking, when just a few more months of slacking brought him so low.

IMO things could go like this:

Ultimate Gohan (Buu) > Ultimate Gohan (Champa) > Ultimate Gohan (Beerus) >>>> Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (25th Budokai) > Super Saiyan Gohan (25th Budokai) >= Super Saiyan Gohan (ROF)

Beerus-era Gohan wouldn't be far off from SS3 Goku at the time, so Vegeta being freaked out by Goku getting one-shotted would make sense, though still stronger as that seems to be what was implied by him getting his own mini cliffhanger and NEP and Vegeta implying he still knows of someone stronger than Goku despite being surprised by Beerus.

So I guess you came around with Piccolo getting stronger as hell then?

I guess so, for the moment. Gohan has the ultimate eyes in episode 43, base Goku/Vegeta are seemingly as strong as Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc (enough to easily defeat, but not one-shot, SS3 Gotenks), Piccolo was even with a slightly downgraded Ultimate Gohan in their spar, and Piccolo was still strong enough relative to the base saiyans that he could not instantly die against someone who would at least give base Vegeta trouble, and he could even defeat him with a Makan-... Special-... charged finger beam. Unless, of course, Gotenks is a lot weaker than he was in the Buu arc or something, which would make a lot more sense considering no one commented on Piccolo supposedly being stronger than Buu who Goku still regarded as "crazy strong". Or if the two base thing is true, which would make the most sense, but that doesn't seem likely either because again no one mentioned it. So who knows.

I mean it's not like this is at all consistent. There's some huge low ends for base Goku and Vegeta like being paralyzed by Chaozu and being unable to lift 1000 tons.

I guess if we're doing rankings:

Omni-King
Omni-King's Guards
Vados|Whis
Beerus|Champa|Hit with fully improved Tokitobashi|Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Hit with Tokitobashi
Golden Freeza|Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta [Champa arc/post-Champa]|Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit|Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta [FnF]|Super Saiyan God Goku [BoG]
Magetta
Super Saiyan Vegetto [Buu arc]|Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta [Champa arc]
Final Form Frost|Gohan-Buu
Ultimate Gohan [Buu arc]|Assault Form Frost|Base Goku/Vegeta [Champa arc/post-Champa]|Base Copy-Vegeta
Final Form Frost [tired]|Final Form Freeza [FnF]
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks|Second Form Frost/Piccolo [Champa arc]|Ultimate Gohan [Champa arc]
Ultimate Gohan [BoG]|Super Saiyan 3 Goku [BoG]
Mr. Boo|First Form Frost|Cabba|Botamo
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku/Vegeta [BoG]
First Form Freeza [FNF]
Super Saiyan Goku/ Vegeta [BoG]
Super Saiyan Gohan [FnF]
Ginyu-Tagoma|Tagoma [FnF]|Super Saiyan Trunks/Goten
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]