Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supercat]

What is the two base theory?

The two base theory was never stated to be a thing; it was some random fan-made theory that flooded numerous threads in hopes of justifying Piccolo's stellar performance against Frost.

You guys really need to stop being so arrogant and full of yourselves. No, it's not a random fan-made theory. It's in Dragon Ball Heroes as "Saiyan Beyond God."

SBG is simply a state where Goku could access the powers of an SSG in base form. There has been no indication whatsoever that said powers could be switched on or off; this magical switch along with the two base theory are both fan-made speculations.

In-universe explanation to Piccolo's power-up?

Piccolo trained with a weakened Ultimate Gohan for a decent amount of time.

Why didn't Buu Saga Piccolo train with SSJ Gotenks in the RoSaT then? He could've easily beaten Buu if he had!

Simply put, he lacked a credible sparring partner to train with during Majin Buu and Babidi's brief reign of terror, as Gotenks was either all over the place or taking a nap.

Why couldn't he have gone in the RoSaT with Gotenks?

Are you seriously asking me to repeat the same answer..?

[Bullza]

Why do you keep repeating "He wanted to give Goku a good fight!!!"?

I never said he wanted to give him a good fight. I said he gave him a good fight because it's not as though he was knocked out cold after one punch.

At least? That means he might be Mystic Gohan level. No, we know for sure he's way above Mystic Gohan level. It's about as meaningful as saying that Beerus is Oolong+. He's at least as strong as Oolong.

Then Vegito+. You don't seem to understand what I'm getting at. It's just a means of narrowing down the range of where Base Goku's powers lie. We can safely assume that he is stronger than Mystic Gohan, so he is at least as strong as Mystic Gohan so Mystic Gohan+.

We do not know for a 100% fact if he's stronger than Super Vegito so we couldn't say Super Vegito+.

1.58 is much closer to 1 than it is to 8. You had Champa Arc Base Goku at 1.5 of SSJ3 Goku, putting him at x1.5 of SSJ3 Goku's level of strength.

But I wasn't specifically referring to SSJ3 Gotenks either. If I had Base Goku over 1.5x stronger than SSJ3 Goku then I didn't say Base Goku was as strong as SSJ3 Goku did I?

Plus your quoting a post I made almost 2 months ago when Goku hadn't even fought Beerus yet.

It's just a game, and not official confirmation, I agree with that; but it's received acknowledgement and therefore is not merely a fan theory with no basis.

Well it would receive acknowledgement because it does exist because Base Goku is drastically more powerful than he was before. It's not something he transforms into though.

That's just how he is now. He doesn't switch between regular and beyond God level depending on the fight. He's just permanently at that level since he absorbed the power and all these enemies he fights are of a similiar level.

[Chiki]

SBG is simply a state where Goku could access the powers of an SSG in base form. There has been no indication whatsoever that said powers could be switched on or off; this magical switch along with the two base theory are both fan-made speculations.

He can turn it on in Dragon Ball Heroes by powering up. I'm not as familiar with it as someone else on this thread though, he should explain it to you.

Are you seriously asking me to repeat the same answer..?

If you can't answer it, it means your view is wrong. It's as simple as that. "Are you seriously asking me to repeat the same answer" is not a counterargument.

I never said he wanted to give him a good fight. I said he gave him a good fight because it's not as though he was knocked out cold after one punch.

Beerus wasn't using his full power so he would have been using a certain amount of power to give Goku a good fight

What you said here implies that Beerus consciously decided to use a certain amount of power to give Goku a good fight.

The reality is, Beerus was trying his best while in the costume. That wasn't his 100% power, but he was 100% serious.

Then Vegito+. You don't seem to understand what I'm getting at. It's just a means of narrowing down the range of where Base Goku's powers lie. We can safely assume that he is stronger than Mystic Gohan, so he is at least as strong as Mystic Gohan so Mystic Gohan+.

We do not know for a 100% fact if he's stronger than Super Vegito so we couldn't say Super Vegito+.

I do understand it, but it's a meaningless statement. It's not informative enough. It's like saying Goku is Yamcha+, or saying that Barack Obama is at least as tall as Tyrion Lannister, a dwarf. They completely transcended Mystic Gohan level long ago so you're misleading us.

Why don't you just say around SSG Goku level? You said you agreed with it earlier.

But I wasn't specifically referring to SSJ3 Gotenks either. If I had Base Goku over 1.5x stronger than SSJ3 Goku then I didn't say Base Goku was as strong as SSJ3 Goku did I?

Plus your quoting a post I made almost 2 months ago when Goku hadn't even fought Beerus yet.

First, a x1.5 difference isn't much of a difference at all. Second, wtf is SSJ3 tier if you can't decide between referring to SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Gotenks? I guess your idea of "SSJ3 tier" isn't SSJ3 tier after all since you don't even use SSJ3 power levels to define SSJ3 tier.

And of course I can quote a post 2 months ago. I am addressing your base = SSJ3 tier theory (but I don't think even you yourself know what SSJ3 tier means lol) that has been proven to be completely wrong and destroyed.

Well it would receive acknowledgement because it does exist because Base Goku is drastically more powerful than he was before. It's not something he transforms into though.

That's just how he is now. He doesn't switch between regular and beyond God level depending on the fight. He's just permanently at that level since he absorbed the power and all these enemies he fights are of a similiar level.

Explain why he didn't go SSJ for Final Form Frieza and Hit.

[HeroR]

^ to be fair to GT the only time they made power comparisons was when they were legitimately faced with powerful foes. An example being General Rildo and Goku's comment. GT was bad but no where near this bad. I'm not sure why that myth continues on.

GT did make power comparison other than General Rildo. Goku said General Rildo was as strong as Majin Buu (which Buu is debatable) and Goku fought General Rildo in his base until Rildo transformed. Even then, Goku didn't go beyond Super Saiyan. Goku then beats up Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten in his base form and GT guide claimed that Gohan hasn't gotten weaker and kept training. So Goku's base form is stronger than Gohan at full power, who was stronger than Super Buu. Baby Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 4 Goku is stronger than Baby Vegeta. Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta is even or a little stronger. Also from the GT guide, it claimed Super Saiyan 4 Goku could be stronger or equal to Vegetto.

Going from that, Uub after he merged with Mr. Buu was able to give Baby Vegeta a decent fight, making him stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, who was already beyond Majin Buu level in his base.

Super isn't really different, it is just the scaling is much higher than compared to anything in GT.

[supercat]

Are you seriously asking me to repeat the same answer..?

If you can't answer it, it means your view is wrong. It's as simple as that. "Are you seriously asking me to repeat the same answer" is not a counterargument.

I've seen some weak responses, but wow, this one actually managed to render me speechless for a few seconds.

Okay, you do realize that I was simply asking you that because you included part of my answer in the previous post right? Not to mention, if you had actually read through my post, you would have seen that the entirety of my speculation was there all along.

What did you think I even meant when I said "he lacked a credible sparring partner to train with during Majin Buu and Babidi's brief reign of terror, as Gotenks was either all over the place or taking a nap. By the time Gotenks was in the RoSaT, there was no time to train, as Super Buu was watching them all like a hawk"?

[Chiki]

Are you seriously asking me to repeat the same answer..?

If you can't answer it, it means your view is wrong. It's as simple as that. "Are you seriously asking me to repeat the same answer" is not a counterargument.

I've seen some weak responses, but wow, this one actually managed to render me speechless for a few seconds.

Okay, you do realize that I was simply asking you that because you included part of my answer in the previous post right? Not to mention, if you had actually read through my post, you would have seen that the entirety of my speculation was there all along.

What did you think I even meant when I said "he lacked a credible sparring partner to train with during Majin Buu and Babidi's brief reign of terror, as Gotenks was either all over the place or taking a nap. By the time Gotenks was in the RoSaT, there was no time to train, as Super Buu was watching them all like a hawk"?

I read your post entirely, and to be frank you haven't thought deeply enough about this. He could have easily asked Gotenks to train with him as his sparring partner in the RoSaT the moment they mastered fusion, or after Gotenks got his ass kicked the first time. He didn't even bother to try asking them. Why? Because he doesn't have the potential to ever reach god level without training with Whis.

There were two golden opportunities for Piccolo to train with Gotenks, and he didn't take them. Your argument is wrong, game over.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Explain why he didn't go SSJ for Final Form Frieza and Hit.

Against Freeza - Because he wanted to show off his new power in Base and didn't feel a need to transform.
Against Hit - He was just focused on getting accustomed to Hit's Time-Skip.

[Chiki]

Explain why he didn't go SSJ for Final Form Frieza and Hit.

Against Freeza - Because he wanted to show off his new power in Base and didn't feel a need to transform.
Against Hit - He was just focused on getting accustomed to Hit's Time-Skip.

1. I meant, why didn't he transform into normal SS instead of SSB before Frieza went Golden?
2. I don't see why he couldn't have gotten accustomed to Hit's Time-Skip as a normal SS rather than SSB. SS doesn't drain stamina at all anymore since FPSSJ during Cell Arc.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta asked them to go all-out. So, Goku should go past Super Saiyan.

Goku was trying to figure a way to counter Tokitobashi without wasting too much energy, since that was Vegeta's mistake. And Elder Kaioshin implies Super Saiyan is even more difficult to sustain than Super Saiyan Blue (when he was talking about kaioken).

[RandomGuy96]

How does current Piccolo compare to Buu saga Goku, Gotenks and the Buu forms?

Is SSB still weaker than SSJ God Red or has that been retconned?

Apparently he's on par with a weakened Ultimate Gohan (Gohan says he's still "re-learning the basics", implying he's weaker than he was at his peak rather than the strongest he's ever been, but he has the "Mystic" eyes, which implies he's not many times weaker than his prime self), and in striking distance of base Goku/Vegeta (he was able to not go down immediately against a tired Frost, meaning he's more than half of his power, and that Frost was implied to be around as strong as base Vegeta or stronger). Base Vegeta, after getting somewhat stronger after the tournament, was able to easily defeat SS3 Gotenks, though he wasn't able to one-shot him and Gotenks was able to block some hits and get up after others despite not being able to hurt base Vegeta. So unless that was a weakened Gotenks, then he's Super Buu level at the lowest (able to survive against Frost as well as Gotenks survived against Vegeta, and defeat Frost with one attack that amplified his power x3.5), Ultimate Gohan level at the highest (assuming he was actually closer to that Frost than implied, and the Ultimate Gohan he fought was really close to "peak" Gohan)

[Chiki]

Vegeta asked them to go all-out. So, Goku should go past Super Saiyan.

Goku was trying to figure a way to counter Tokitobashi without wasting too much energy, since that was Vegeta's mistake. And Elder Kaioshin implies Super Saiyan is even more difficult to sustain than Super Saiyan Blue (when he was talking about kaioken).

Super Saiyan isn't supposed to drain stamina anymore though. Not since the Cell arc. Draining stamina and ki control are two different things. Just because you can control your ki with a form doesn't mean it no longer drains your stamina; just because a form no longer drains your stamina doesn't mean it gives you perfect control.

For example, in Naruto, the Mangekyo Sharingan drains Kakashi's stamina though he has complete control over his chakra. On the other hand, Sasuke's Sharingan did not drain his stamina anywhere near as much compared to Kakashi, but he wasn't as experienced with it compared to Kakashi and so he couldn't control it well.

Therefore he surely could have gone SSJ against Hit since it doesn't drain stamina much.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Explain why he didn't go SSJ for Final Form Frieza and Hit.

Against Freeza - Because he wanted to show off his new power in Base and didn't feel a need to transform.
Against Hit - He was just focused on getting accustomed to Hit's Time-Skip.

1. I meant, why didn't he transform into normal SS instead of SSB before Frieza went Golden?
2. I don't see why he couldn't have gotten accustomed to Hit's Time-Skip as a normal SS rather than SSB. SS doesn't drain stamina at all anymore since FPSSJ during Cell Arc.

1. Goku knew Freeza was hiding some type of special power-up, so he probably assumed Super Saiyan wouldn't have been enough.
2. Well, it was said that Full-Power Super Saiyan was created to reduce aggression and strain. You still need energy to transform. Goku most likely assumed it'd be safer keeping all of his stamina intact.

[dbzfan7]

How does current Piccolo compare to Buu saga Goku, Gotenks and the Buu forms?

Is SSB still weaker than SSJ God Red or has that been retconned?

Apparently he's on par with a weakened Ultimate Gohan (Gohan says he's still "re-learning the basics", implying he's weaker than he was at his peak rather than the strongest he's ever been, but he has the "Mystic" eyes, which implies he's not many times weaker than his prime self), and in striking distance of base Goku/Vegeta (he was able to not go down immediately against a tired Frost, meaning he's more than half of his power, and that Frost was implied to be around as strong as base Vegeta or stronger). Base Vegeta, after getting somewhat stronger after the tournament, was able to easily defeat SS3 Gotenks, though he wasn't able to one-shot him and Gotenks was able to block some hits and get up after others despite not being able to hurt base Vegeta. So unless that was a weakened Gotenks, then he's Super Buu level at the lowest (able to survive against Frost as well as Gotenks survived against Vegeta, and defeat Frost with one attack that amplified his power x3.5), Ultimate Gohan level at the highest (assuming he was actually closer to that Frost than implied, and the Ultimate Gohan he fought was really close to "peak" Gohan)

I didn't see any mystic eyes in episode 30. I could see it argued for maybe 43, but even that doesn't make much sense to me since he isn't fighting there, and the BOG arc makes it clear when he powers up, he gets those eyes. So he powered up for....a meeting? If anything 43 seemed inconsistent.

Goku was trying to figure a way to counter Tokitobashi without wasting too much energy, since that was Vegeta's mistake. And Elder Kaioshin implies Super Saiyan is even more difficult to sustain than Super Saiyan Blue (when he was talking about kaioken).

Super Saiyan has no ki drain or strain. They made that clear in the Cell arc. They trained it so much that SSJ was basically just like the base form. Blue they clearly say is a taxing form that drains them. I still don't get why he didn't just use it in the mean time. I guess the writers just forgot that SSJ has no strain at all. Considering their other flubs and oversights, this isn't a big surprise.

[Chiki]

1. Goku knew Freeza was hiding some type of special power-up, so he probably assumed Super Saiyan wouldn't have been enough.
2. Well, it was said that Full-Power Super Saiyan was created to reduce aggression and strain. You still need energy to transform. Goku most likely assumed it'd be safer keeping all of his stamina intact.

1. I don't agree with that, but Hugo Boss's answer works for this so I'm going to drop it.

2. See dbzfan7's post:

Super Saiyan has no ki drain or strain. They made that clear in the Cell arc. They trained it so much that SSJ was basically just like the base form. Blue they clearly say is a taxing form that drains them. I still don't get why he didn't just use it in the mean time. I guess the writers just forgot that SSJ has no strain at all.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the elder Kaioshin said something like this: "Super Saiyan already forces the body past its limits, so using kaioken on top of Super Saiyan is practically suicide!". I guess this is exactly the excuse for not using it for so long. Goku makes the point of Super Saiyan Blue taking quite a toll on his body, but if he thinks about combining it with kaioken, then I assume Super Saiyan drains more stamina, no?

[supercat]

If you can't answer it, it means your view is wrong. It's as simple as that. "Are you seriously asking me to repeat the same answer" is not a counterargument.

I've seen some weak responses, but wow, this one actually managed to render me speechless for a few seconds.

Okay, you do realize that I was simply asking you that because you included part of my answer in the previous post right? Not to mention, if you had actually read through my post, you would have seen that the entirety of my speculation was there all along.

What did you think I even meant when I said "he lacked a credible sparring partner to train with during Majin Buu and Babidi's brief reign of terror, as Gotenks was either all over the place or taking a nap. By the time Gotenks was in the RoSaT, there was no time to train, as Super Buu was watching them all like a hawk"?

I read your post entirely, and to be frank you haven't thought deeply enough about this. He could have easily asked Gotenks to train with him as his sparring partner in the RoSaT the moment they mastered fusion, or after Gotenks got his ass kicked the first time. He didn't even bother to try asking them. Why? Because he doesn't have the potential to ever reach god level without training with Whis.

There were two golden opportunities for Piccolo to train with Gotenks, and he didn't take them. Your argument is wrong, game over.

Haha my argument is wrong? Do you not realize that we're participating in an open discussion where anything could be applicable? Until something is officially stated, it's merely a speculation. Pretty simple concept, in case you didn't realize.

And nope, Gotenks went off on his own, leaving no room for discussion.

Plus, when it was just Majin Buu, Piccolo had a good amount of confidence in Gotenks; heck, he was pretty confident Gotenks would get the job done even after Super Buu emerged.

You keep going on and on about these opportunities to train, but what opportunity?

Oh wait, I guess it's because Super Buu's the kind of guy who just gives people free passes to the RoSaT right? I mean lounging around doing nothing for 10 hours or so couldn't possibly test his patience right?

From an out-of-universe standpoint, all these "why didn't they train?" arguments essentially have the same answer; the story didn't require these characters to get stronger. I said this before, but would anyone have guessed that Frieza could become as strong as he did in just 4 months?

I mean, if that were the case all along, why wouldn't he have trained before embarking on his journey to Earth? I mean, if it took 4 months to reach SSB tier, a mere fraction of that would have been more than enough to trump a regular SSJ right?

[TheMikado]

^ to be fair to GT the only time they made power comparisons was when they were legitimately faced with powerful foes. An example being General Rildo and Goku's comment. GT was bad but no where near this bad. I'm not sure why that myth continues on.

GT did make power comparison other than General Rildo. Goku said General Rildo was as strong as Majin Buu (which Buu is debatable) and Goku fought General Rildo in his base until Rildo transformed. Even then, Goku didn't go beyond Super Saiyan. Goku then beats up Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten in his base form and GT guide claimed that Gohan hasn't gotten weaker and kept training. So Goku's base form is stronger than Gohan at full power, who was stronger than Super Buu. Baby Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 4 Goku is stronger than Baby Vegeta. Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta is even or a little stronger. Also from the GT guide, it claimed Super Saiyan 4 Goku could be stronger or equal to Vegetto.

Going from that, Uub after he merged with Mr. Buu was able to give Baby Vegeta a decent fight, making him stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, who was already beyond Majin Buu level in his base.

Super isn't really different, it is just the scaling is much higher than compared to anything in GT.

Except what you said isn't widely debated and generally agreed on by even those who casually watched the show. The problem isn't the scale, it's the ambiguity and lack of consistency. You just showed in that paragraph why GT has more consistent levels. We can figure out everything and fears seem to follow that line of thinking to a greater or lesser extent.

[dbzfan7]

I think the elder Kaioshin said something like this: "Super Saiyan already forces the body past its limits, so using kaioken on top of Super Saiyan is practically suicide!". I guess this is exactly the excuse for not using it for so long. Goku makes the point of Super Saiyan Blue taking quite a toll on his body, but if he thinks about combining it with kaioken, then I assume Super Saiyan drains more stamina, no?

I honestly didn't buy that excuse. I'm hoping the manga changes it up. They made a comment how SSJ was basically just like normal form. Goku was completely himself and no longer angry. They made a huge deal of how he was basically just like his usual self. How he was normal. Which I think is the most tranquil of all. As an SSJB he's more intense than how he is in base, but not rage angry like original SSJ. SSJB already takes a severe toll as Goku said before on his stamina, so it makes less sense for it to be more compatible with a pressure inducing technique like Kaio-Ken, when SSJ has become the pinnacle of being just like your base self.

[Chiki]

I think the elder Kaioshin said something like this: "Super Saiyan already forces the body past its limits, so using kaioken on top of Super Saiyan is practically suicide!". I guess this is exactly the excuse for not using it for so long. Goku makes the point of Super Saiyan Blue taking quite a toll on his body, but if he thinks about combining it with kaioken, then I assume Super Saiyan drains more stamina, no?

Why didn't he go SSJ at first to find a counter to Tokitobashi, and then go SSB like he did normally?

Haha my argument is wrong? Do you not realize that we're participating in an open discussion where anything could be applicable? Until something is officially stated, it's merely a speculation. Pretty simple concept, in case you didn't realize.

And nope, Gotenks went off on his own, leaving no room for discussion.

Plus, when it was just Majin Buu, Piccolo had a good amount of confidence in Gotenks; heck, he was pretty confident Gotenks would get the job done even after Super Buu emerged.

You keep going on and on about these opportunities to train, but what opportunity?

Oh wait, I guess it's because Super Buu's the kind of guy who just gives people free passes to the RoSaT right? I mean lounging around doing nothing for 10 hours or so couldn't possibly test his patience right?

From an out-of-universe standpoint, all these "why didn't they train?" arguments essentially have the same answer; the story didn't require these characters to get stronger. I said this before, but would anyone have guessed that Frieza could become as strong as he did in just 4 months?

I mean, if that were the case all along, why wouldn't he have trained before embarking on his journey to Earth? I mean, if it took 4 months to reach SSB tier, a mere fraction of that would have been more than enough to trump a regular SSJ right?

You haven't answered why Piccolo didn't ask Gotenks to come with him to the RoSaT after originally getting his ass kicked by Buu.

Even if Piccolo was confident in Gotenks, it couldn't have hurt for them to go in the RoSaT together so that both of them could have become stronger.

They had a very comfortable time gap in between Gotenks getting his ass kicked by Mr. Buu and Mr. Buu becoming Super Buu.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan being unable to go Super Saiyan for long pretty much shows Super Saiyan is much different in Super. He had no trouble maintaining Super Saiyan despite not training for seven yrs, but now he's not sure if he could maintain it for long? Definitely a big change there.