Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:41 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:So they're gonna play for laughs that little Togepi is a multiversal genocider, I guess.
Literally more evil than every villain seen up to this point combined. Unless they were not populated universes.
LightBing wrote:Let's spice this up:
- Goku couldn't feel Base Vegeta but he could feel Gohan in the RoF arc...
[throws onto a pile that also includes "base Goku was paralyzed by Chaozu"]
- Goku wanted to do the harvest with Piccolo, supposedly to compete with him.
He asked Goten to "compete" too, so that may not mean much.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:23 pm

Do Toei & Toriyama forget that Majin Buu is amongst the group? He may not be as strong as Goku and Vegeta now but he's above the rest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:23 pm

Well we don't really know if Majin Buu is stronger than Gohan or not.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:26 pm

Bullza wrote:Well we don't really know if Majin Buu is stronger than Gohan or not.
Gohan can hardly maintain SSJ anymore and Majin Buu gave SSJ3 Goku a run for his money.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:30 pm

Bullza wrote:Well we don't really know if Majin Buu is stronger than Gohan or not.
We kinda do since Gohan was on par with Piccolo, who held his own against an opponent that Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to beat and base Vegeta is over SSJ3 Gotenks.

Unless you have your gaps very small I don't see how Gohan is still under Boo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:04 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:Well we don't really know if Majin Buu is stronger than Gohan or not.
We kinda do since Gohan was on par with Piccolo, who held his own against an opponent that Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to beat and base Vegeta is over SSJ3 Gotenks.

Unless you have your gaps very small I don't see how Gohan is still under Boo.
Ultimate-ish Gohan ~ Piccolo, and Piccolo being around base Goku/Vegeta [Champa arc], seems to be the case now, yes. Unless Gotenks experienced a meteoric drop in power similar to Gohan in the previous arcs. The scene where Goku and Vegeta recruit Piccolo still doesn't make a damn bit of sense if Piccolo and Gohan are stronger than Buu.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MadSaiyantist » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:22 pm

LightBing wrote:Let's spice this up:
- Goku couldn't feel Base Vegeta but he could feel Gohan in the RoF arc...
What's your point? He couldn't sense Whis either. Whis taught them both to keep their Ki within their body to specifically prevent their opponent from sensing their Ki.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:35 pm

MadSaiyantist wrote:
LightBing wrote:Let's spice this up:
- Goku couldn't feel Base Vegeta but he could feel Gohan in the RoF arc...
What's your point? He couldn't sense Whis either. Whis taught them both to keep their Ki within their body to specifically prevent their opponent from sensing their Ki.
That Base Vegeta is implied to be weaker than Gohan. I assume Whis isn't flaring even near full power for what he was doing.
Nobody comments on how they can't feel the base Saiyans ki, after their "keep the ki inside training". In fact they only comment when the character turns into SSJB, this in the RoF arc.
From this:

It seems the point of it relates to God Ki.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:43 pm

Some food for thought. Given what happened in ep. 43 I'm again inclined to believe that Piccolo is still essentially the same, or at most very marginally stronger. At the very least, he most definitely is not intended to be stronger than regular Base Goku nor God tier.

12:36 | Goku: "Goin' a whole day without trainin' just don't seem right."
12:42 | Piccolo: "How do you feel?"
12:44 | Goku: "Well... If I fought you right now, I'd probably lose."
12:49 | Piccolo: "I see."
That's a Goku who can't control ki, can barely fly, has no appetite and so on. Transforming into a Super Saiyan definitely looks like a no-no.
This leads me to conclude that Piccolo is much more similar in power to the "Ki Disorder/ Almost Totally Useless" Base Goku than regular Base Goku; the whole exchange has Goku acting like Piccolo beating him in Base would be something that normally wasn't supposed to happen (I mean, if base Goku was in fact weaker than Piccolo what would be the point of mentioning something that would happen already in regular circumstances?). It almost feels like he can give Piccolo an idea of his weakened condition by comparison to Piccolo's regular power output.

Furthermore, the fact that he adds a "probably" instead of a "certainly" means ironically that Goku thinks he still has kinda of a chance (like 20% or 30%, I guess) to beat regular Piccolo in his pitiful state. And in my opinion that tidbit speaks volumes, since he could have, like, 10% of his regular ki with no ki attacks available.

If you want to get kind of anal, according to Goku, the gap between himself with the ki disorder and Piccolo ("probably wouldn't win") would need to be smaller than the one between Piccolo and "tired" Final Form Frost ("has no chance to win").
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:01 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:So they're gonna play for laughs that little Togepi is a multiversal genocider, I guess.
Literally more evil than every villain seen up to this point combined. Unless they were not populated universes.
LightBing wrote:Let's spice this up:
- Goku couldn't feel Base Vegeta but he could feel Gohan in the RoF arc...
[throws onto a pile that also includes "base Goku was paralyzed by Chaozu"]
- Goku wanted to do the harvest with Piccolo, supposedly to compete with him.
He asked Goten to "compete" too, so that may not mean much.
After watching the episode with translations, while competing with Piccolo, Goku says "this will be a close match". Which puts Piccolo slightly below Base Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:42 pm

LightBing wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:So they're gonna play for laughs that little Togepi is a multiversal genocider, I guess.
Literally more evil than every villain seen up to this point combined. Unless they were not populated universes.
LightBing wrote:Let's spice this up:
- Goku couldn't feel Base Vegeta but he could feel Gohan in the RoF arc...
[throws onto a pile that also includes "base Goku was paralyzed by Chaozu"]
- Goku wanted to do the harvest with Piccolo, supposedly to compete with him.
He asked Goten to "compete" too, so that may not mean much.
After watching the episode with translations, while competing with Piccolo, Goku says "this will be a close match". Which puts Piccolo slightly below Base Goku.
Suppose Chiki will be happy with the talk in ep. 43 and this one providing clues for the "two-base theory" (or rather, "two-base writing").

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:43 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:Well we don't really know if Majin Buu is stronger than Gohan or not.
We kinda do since Gohan was on par with Piccolo, who held his own against an opponent that Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to beat and base Vegeta is over SSJ3 Gotenks.

Unless you have your gaps very small I don't see how Gohan is still under Boo.
Ultimate-ish Gohan ~ Piccolo, and Piccolo being around base Goku/Vegeta [Champa arc], seems to be the case now, yes. Unless Gotenks experienced a meteoric drop in power similar to Gohan in the previous arcs. The scene where Goku and Vegeta recruit Piccolo still doesn't make a damn bit of sense if Piccolo and Gohan are stronger than Buu.
Well Gotenks was never stated to get weaker in any of his 3 appearances so far and I really don't think Piccolo is on the same tier than base Goku/Vegeta though. He needs to be considerably weaker to need the Makankosappo to beat Frost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:47 pm

In light of both LowRyder and LightBing's posts, I suppose it's pretty much confirmed that Piccolo is supposed to be just one step below base Goku now. Besides that, we have Piccolo being even with a Gohan implied to be somewhat below his Buu arc self (he has the Ultimate features now, but still says he's redoing the basics rather than being stronger than ever), and base Vegeta being way stronger than (a weakened?) SS3 Gotenks, but not enough to one-shot him. It appears one of the closest things to a concrete hierarchy in regards to the base Saiyans is this:

Base Goku/Vegeta [Black Goku arc] >= Piccolo [Champa arc] ~ Utimate-ish Gohan [Champa arc] > SS3 Gotenks [Champa arc]

Speaking of which, this again implies that the gap between Frost's 3rd and 4th forms is pretty small. His final form, albeit after being beaten and exhausted, wasn't strong enough to one-punch someone weaker than his third form (Piccolo < base Goku < Assault Frost). Assuming that base Goku wasn't screwing around. Which he probably wasn't, at least not by a lot, since Piccolo seemed to think that him vs an exhausted 3rd form Frost would still be a good fight. The difference between 3rd and 4th form Frost should basically be equivalent to the difference between "tired Frost" and Piccolo.
ZombieVito wrote: Well Gotenks was never stated to get weaker in any of his 3 appearances so far and I really don't think Piccolo is on the same tier than base Goku/Vegeta though. He needs to be considerably weaker to need the Makankosappo to beat Frost.
Yeah, so far I think he's only supposed to be somewhat weaker.

Or Frost was just a good amount stronger than base Goku and Vegeta. Like maybe x1.3-1.5 superior to Piccolo or so: strong enough that Piccolo needs the SBC, not strong enough to one-shot Piccolo. I mean if what LightBing says is true, specifically the part about Goku thinking that his farming contest with Piccolo would be close, he pretty much has to be on the same level.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:49 pm

Well Gotenks was never stated to get weaker in any of his 3 appearances so far and I really don't think Piccolo is on the same tier than base Goku/Vegeta though. He needs to be considerably weaker to need the Makankosappo to beat Frost.
Agreed. Besides, I believe you could put back Gotenks at pre-ROSAT levels at most. Goten and Trunks didn't really seem to have a particularly stoic training routine going on and were supposed to be naturally gifted since their first appearance.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MadSaiyantist » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:53 pm

LightBing wrote:
MadSaiyantist wrote:
LightBing wrote:Let's spice this up:
- Goku couldn't feel Base Vegeta but he could feel Gohan in the RoF arc...
What's your point? He couldn't sense Whis either. Whis taught them both to keep their Ki within their body to specifically prevent their opponent from sensing their Ki.
That Base Vegeta is implied to be weaker than Gohan. I assume Whis isn't flaring even near full power for what he was doing.
Nobody comments on how they can't feel the base Saiyans ki, after their "keep the ki inside training". In fact they only comment when the character turns into SSJB, this in the RoF arc.
From this:

It seems the point of it relates to God Ki.
Whis taught the two of them to keep the Ki within them to conceal it during battle. Why would Whis keep training Vegeta yet let him abandon a previous lesson? Whether or not its linked to God Ki is irrelevant.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MadSaiyantist » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:56 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
Well Gotenks was never stated to get weaker in any of his 3 appearances so far and I really don't think Piccolo is on the same tier than base Goku/Vegeta though. He needs to be considerably weaker to need the Makankosappo to beat Frost.
Agreed. Besides, I believe you could put back Gotenks at pre-ROSAT levels at most. Goten and Trunks didn't really seem to have a particularly stoic training routine going on and were supposed to be naturally gifted since their first appearance.
I like the idea of finding a happy medium of putting Gotenks at pre ROSAT level. It makes the most logical sense for a lowball at least. Ssj Gotenks (Pre ROSAT) was supposed to be able to defeat Majin Buu wasn't he?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:13 pm

MadSaiyantist wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
Well Gotenks was never stated to get weaker in any of his 3 appearances so far and I really don't think Piccolo is on the same tier than base Goku/Vegeta though. He needs to be considerably weaker to need the Makankosappo to beat Frost.
Agreed. Besides, I believe you could put back Gotenks at pre-ROSAT levels at most. Goten and Trunks didn't really seem to have a particularly stoic training routine going on and were supposed to be naturally gifted since their first appearance.
I like the idea of finding a happy medium of putting Gotenks at pre ROSAT level. It makes the most logical sense for a lowball at least. Ssj Gotenks (Pre ROSAT) was supposed to be able to defeat Majin Buu wasn't he?
I'd say it depends more or less on what you give more value as a source. Not really any reason to believe that he can't beat Fat Buu if you follow what happens in the original manga; in the anime's narration, which is technically the true prequel of Super, things get extremely messy.

On a side note. I watched the Piccolo vs. Goku competition in ep. 47 more carefully with the subs. Other than being funny, dunno, I don't think we can really take what happens in the field seriously. I mean, while Piccolo does seem concerned with beating Goku, it looks like both Goku and Piccolo are going at a very leisurely pace compared to their super-duper maximum speeds. For comparison's purposes, Goku was faster against Krillin during the Kame-Sennin training back in Dragon Ball.

By the way, Goku just says that "this is a good match" - the match they are having at that time - not that "it would be a good match against Piccolo" in broader terms. Visuals could kinda suggest that they're more or less taking it easy (although Goten, if anything, hilariously remarks they're "so fast").

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:28 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:On a side note. I watched the Piccolo vs. Goku competition in ep. 47 more carefully with the subs. Other than being funny, dunno, I don't think we can really take what happens in the field seriously. I mean, while Piccolo does seem concerned with beating Goku, it looks like both Goku and Piccolo are going at a very leisurely pace compared to their super-duper maximum speeds. For comparison's purposes, Goku was faster against Krillin during the Kame-Sennin training back in Dragon Ball.

By the way, Goku just says that "this is a good match" - the match they are having at that time - not that "it would be a good match against Piccolo" in broader terms. Visuals could kinda suggest that they're more or less taking it easy (although Goten, if anything, hilariously remarks they're "so fast").
Goku says that it's for training, Piccolo is surprised that such a way to train exists. He even has a little sweat going on. The subs I saw were from the best subbing group, said so by Herms. In the middle of the competition Goku says "Nice going, Piccolo! This will be a close match". I guess you can ignore it because it's a gag like scene, but the power implications are there.
Last edited by LightBing on Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:34 pm

Yeah, that's as close to a concrete comparison as we are likely to get.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:38 pm

This is still insane to me. He was even in his weighted clothes!!

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