DBZ Kai Dub and Goku's character

[Forte224]

So, none of my friends are super big DBZ fans. They don't know much outside of the OG Funi/Ocean dubs and are just now getting used to Chris Ayres and hate Goku's Japanese voice and whatnot. Also they don't really like to talk about DBZ much except for the fight scenes. So if ya don't mind I might spout off a couple random topics now and then that are on my mind for some feedback.

So anyway, in the past couple years I started to love DBZ Kai. I loved how different Goku's character was from the original dub, and realized that's how Goku actually always was in Japan. Anyway, Funi did a great job with his character in Kai, but there's one scene I saw while re-watching it that kinda irks me. It's when the crew is on Namek while Goku is recovering in the hospital on earth. He gets news of the danger on Namek, gets a Senzu Bean from Yajirobe and flies off on Nimbus (I haven't converted to using Japanese terms yet obviously). Anyway, Yajirobe is confused why Goku is so excited. Roshi says he wants to help his friends above all else, but he's also excited for a challenge. On the other hand, in the Japanese dub Roshi says something like 'Of course he wants to help everyone, but he's always seemed to get more enjoyment out of a challenge.'

I guess this confused me a little. Funi went to great lengths to restore Goku's true character, but then in this one scene kind of undo that by saying his priority is his friends instead of a challenge which is opposite of the Japanese dub, only to go back to it afterwards. Were they that concerned over losing fans from that one scene or something? I know Battle of Gods did this too with "I can't let that blast hit the earth!" and "There's just one problem. This blast is gonna do major damage and I can't stop it. You're too strong." As opposed to in Japanese, "I'll deflect it, just like this!" And "My main concern is the gap of power (between Goku and Beerus)" making him sound more heroic in the Eng dub as opposed being excited about the challenge (even though I'm sure the reason Goku tried to stop the blast in any dub was to save the earth, otherwise he would've just dodged it). But at least with that I felt Funi was kind of trying to do a hybrid of an OG Funi and Kai script, whereas Kai was advertised to be extremely true to the Manga.

Anyway, am I reading too much into this, or....what do ya think?

[Footlong Shoe]

The line that always threw me off in Battle of Gods was Goku's "I will not let you destroy my world!" which in Japanese was "Stop having fun destroying things!" (I don't speak Japanese so I'm going by Steve Simmons' translation)

The thing about the Kai dub (as well as other dubbed material that came afterwards) is that Funimation wanted to make a more faithful dub, while also appealing to their older fans. This is why they kept certain things such as Kami being "Guardian" (as opposed to literally God), "Hyperbolic Time Chamber", and some of the English attack names. It's especially prominent during the Androids/Cell portion of the series. Hell, in the Nicktoons version they kept even more, like the "Over 9,000" line.

[Forte224]

The line that always threw me off in Battle of Gods was Goku's "I will not let you destroy my world!" which in Japanese was "Stop having fun destroying things!" (I don't speak Japanese so I'm going by Steve Simmons' translation)

The thing about the Kai dub (as well as other dubbed material that came afterwards) is that Funimation wanted to make a more faithful dub, while also appealing to their older fans. This is why they kept certain things such as Kami being "Guardian" (as opposed to literally God), "Hyperbolic Time Chamber", and some of the English attack names. It's especially prominent during the Androids/Cell portion of the series. Hell, in the Nicktoons version they kept even more, like the "Over 9,000" line.

Yeah I get that, but name changes are a different ball game when compared to character trait changes.

Also the "I will not let you destroy my world" line does stand out, but I don't really know how better they could've translated it. The Japanese line sounds kind of silly too

[Ajay]

Also the "I will not let you destroy my world" line does stand out, but I don't really know how better they could've translated it. The Japanese line sounds kind of silly too

"Quit enjoying destruction!" or do the FUNi thing and make him smarter with a line like "Don't revel in destruction!"

There's a lot of ways to keep the original meaning of that line. I guess they couldn't resist throwing a bit of Superman in there.

[ABED]

Also the "I will not let you destroy my world" line does stand out, but I don't really know how better they could've translated it. The Japanese line sounds kind of silly too

"Quit enjoying destruction!" or do the FUNi thing and make him smarter with a line like "Don't revel in destruction!"

There's a lot of ways to keep the original meaning of that line. I guess they couldn't resist throwing a bit of Superman in there.

I don't think the line they chose is any more Supermanish than the original line. Both sound like something Superman would say.

[Forte224]

Yeah that's why I don't bring this one up because they both sound pretty cheesey. I suppose if that's the case they might as well have just translated it directly though. Anyway the dialogue as Goku tries to deflect the blast is a worse offender in my opinion

[Lunatic Fringe]

I personally don't really care. I understand the need on principle to get far away from the "Superman in an orange gi" character that pretended to be Son Goku in the OG FUNi dub but for me, the problem wasn't creating a personality out of nowhere, it was more like amplifying existing character traits into prominence. Goku can be and has been heroic. Making note of that, even if it means not getting everything across with 100% accuracy isn't a big deal to me. Although, it wouldn't hurt if he was more inarticulate and crass in his speech like he is in the original.

[B]

A decent enough compromise for the BoG line, I think, would be "you can't just destroy things!" It doesn't sound awkward and isn't overly superhero-sounding. Don't know if that would exactly fit in the mouth, though.

[TheBlackPaladin]

A decent enough compromise for the BoG line, I think, would be "you can't just destroy things!" It doesn't sound awkward and isn't overly superhero-sounding. Don't know if that would exactly fit in the mouth, though.

I'm very glad you mentioned that, because it's an important thing to keep in mind. Unfortunately, in dubs, you can't just take the English translation and say, "That's the script." I mean, you can for some lines here and there, because every once in a while a literal, word-for-word translation will work with the lip flaps, and those are always good. More often than not, though, the lines need to be re-phrased in order to fit the lip flaps. Ideally, they should be re-phrased as minimally as possible so as to be as similar to the original script as possible, but there are dubs out there that are bad because they were too literal in their dub script adaptations, forcing the actors to deliver their lines in very awkward ways in order to fit the lip flaps.

Plus, to be honest, I though the original Japanese line was kind of weird. "Quit enjoying destroying things!" I mean....to me, that sounds like more of a righteous-over-much moral lecture than what they came up with in the dub. Yes, the dub line ("I will not let you destroy my world!") was definitely still a little Superman-ish, but it's not out of line with stuff that Goku has said in the past in the original Japanese version. For everybody who says, "Goku was completely selfish and always fought for himself and not for others," I always point to what he said in the original Japanese version to Freeza right before he did a X20 Kaioken (not a word-for-word quote, but close enough): "For Gohan, for Chichi, and for Namek...I cannot lose!" So I don't think it was particularly out-of-character for Goku to say what he said in the dub.

Of course, one could make the argument that, more in-character or no, FUNimation should have stuck to the Japanese script and tried to find a re-phrased alternative that was closer to the original dialogue. I just figured I'd explain why that particular dub line didn't bother me.

[Ajay]

I don't think the line they chose is any more Supermanish than the original line. Both sound like something Superman would say.

Eh, I dunno about that. I think an overblown proclamation about protecting "my world" adds a much greater superhero tone that the original line that's just Goku getting frustrated at Beerus' love of destruction.

[Forte224]

A decent enough compromise for the BoG line, I think, would be "you can't just destroy things!" It doesn't sound awkward and isn't overly superhero-sounding. Don't know if that would exactly fit in the mouth, though.

I'm very glad you mentioned that, because it's an important thing to keep in mind. Unfortunately, in dubs, you can't just take the English translation and say, "That's the script." I mean, you can for some lines here and there, because every once in a while a literal, word-for-word translation will work with the lip flaps, and those are always good. More often than not, though, the lines need to be re-phrased in order to fit the lip flaps. Ideally, they should be re-phrased as minimally as possible so as to be as similar to the original script as possible, but there are dubs out there that are bad because they were too literal in their dub script adaptations, forcing the actors to deliver their lines in very awkward ways in order to fit the lip flaps.

Plus, to be honest, I though the original Japanese line was kind of weird. "Quit enjoying destroying things!" I mean....to me, that sounds like more of a righteous-over-much moral lecture than what they came up with in the dub. Yes, the dub line ("I will not let you destroy my world!") was definitely still a little Superman-ish, but it's not out of line with stuff that Goku has said in the past in the original Japanese version. For everybody who says, "Goku was completely selfish and always fought for himself and not for others," I always point to what he said in the original Japanese version to Freeza right before he did a X20 Kaioken (not a word-for-word quote, but close enough): "For Gohan, for Chichi, and for Namek...I cannot lose!" So I don't think it was particularly out-of-character for Goku to say what he said in the dub.

Of course, one could make the argument that, more in-character or no, FUNimation should have stuck to the Japanese script and tried to find a re-phrased alternative that was closer to the original dialogue. I just figured I'd explain why that particular dub line didn't bother me.

See, that's a thing too. I think many fans try to overcompensate for what OG Funi did to Goku by making him completely opposite of a hero, when he clearly is at least somewhat a hero. It just so happens that his hobby/passion for fighting coincides with saving the world. It would be like if you love love love video games, and being good at video games is also what was required to save the world. Of course you'd be happy to protect the planet, but you'd revel in the fact that you get to play video games even more because you love them. That make sense?

Anyway, as regards the X20 Kaioken, the speech itself is filler, so people will argue that. But he obviously cares, just look at how he reacts when his sons die from Kid Buu blowing up the earth. Though I still argue Funi slips in a Superman line now and again

[WittyUsername]

It always strikes me as odd how people seem to act like because the old Funimation dub often times made gave Goku some over the top "superhero" speeches, that they like to make him out to be some morally bankrupt sociopath who only fights bad guys for his own amusement. Goku may not be the ideal Superman-esque hero that Funimation sometimes makes him out to be, but he does have his principles, and he did sacrifice himself on two occasions for the sake of other people. He does have his selfish moments, but he isn't solely defined by his selfishness.

With all of that in mind, I'm not really sure how Goku referring to the Earth as his "world" is really all that out of character. It's been shown before that Goku considers the Earth to be his home, and it should go without saying that he wouldn't want anyone to destroy it.

[Forte224]

It always strikes me as odd how people seem to act like because the old Funimation dub often times made gave Goku some over the top "superhero" speeches, that they like to make him out to be some morally bankrupt sociopath who only fights bad guys for his own amusement. Goku may not be the ideal Superman-esque hero that Funimation sometimes makes him out to be, but he does have his principles, and he did sacrifice himself on two occasions for the sake of other people. He does have his selfish moments, but he isn't solely defined by his selfishness.

With all of that in mind, I'm not really sure how Goku referring to the Earth as his "world" is really all that out of character. It's been shown before that Goku considers the Earth to be his home, and it should go without saying that he wouldn't want anyone to destroy it.

Yeah, like I said, they overcompensate for Funi's bad script by making him out to be less caring than he actually is. In Japanese Kai before he fights Vegeta, he says he's grateful he was considered a lower class, because that's what got him sent to earth. That would indicate he at the very least likes the earth. Of course, he is selfish at times, like when he gave Cell the Senzu so it would be a fair fight and when he didn't beat Fat Buu even though he said he could've. But in those instances he was confident Gohan and Gotenks respectively were up to the task. Of course, both failed to a degree, and in the end Goku is the one that saved the day both times.

That being said, I just like the Japanese lines more for when he's deflecting Beerus' blast. It's obvious he's trying to stop if from hitting earth, otherwise he would've just dodged it, but I prefer the dialogue where he considered deflecting it a challenge as opposed to preaching that he needed to save the earth

[TheBlackPaladin]

I always interpreted Goku's sometimes-selfish-but-sometimes-not nature as a result of three things:

1) A perpetual inner battle of nature-vs-nurture. On Earth, sure, Grandpa Gohan taught him some stuff about fighting, but ultimately, he had a relatively peaceful upbringing. On the other hand, while he may have had a human upbringing, he was still a saiyan. I have theorized that his saiyan DNA is constantly begging for him to fight. His human upbringing made him into a relatively easy-going guy, but his saiyan genetic heritage is constantly telling him, "C'mon, you know you wanna kick this guy's ass." It wouldn't surprise me at all if, over the many years of their evolution, saiyans developed this built-in desire--perhaps, even need--for combat. This inner conflict for Goku is what I attribute to him saying in his first fight against Vegeta (not an exact quote, but close enough): "As serious as things are...I'm having the time of my life."

2) Brain damage. One could even link this to the inner battle I mentioned above. Had Grandpa Gohan not dropped him on his head, it's quite possible that he would have been your garden-variety, violent saiyan (and indeed, Roshi said as much when Raditz revealed Goku's true origins, saying that Goku didn't really calm down until he hit his head). He did indeed hit his head though, resulting in a noticeable personality change. I suspect the brain damage buried his heritage-induced desire for combat deeper into his subconscious. Buried, perhaps...but the brain damage still didn't completely destroy it.

3) This is kind of cheating because it's a "real-life" reason, but Toriyama mentioned how he was always a little upset at how Toei kept playing up Goku's more heroic aspects, and that Goku's only real wish was to become a stronger fighter, not necessarily to save the world. So, it would appear there's a bit of a conflict between how Toriyama saw Goku and how Toei saw him. A difference between "Toriyama Goku" and "Toei Goku," if you will. So, for all the criticism that FUNimation has received for playing up his heroic aspects, I suppose one could make the argument that "Toei Goku" is really just "FUNimation Goku Light."

[ryou766]

Also the "I will not let you destroy my world" line does stand out, but I don't really know how better they could've translated it. The Japanese line sounds kind of silly too

"Quit enjoying destruction!" or do the FUNi thing and make him smarter with a line like "Don't revel in destruction!"

There's a lot of ways to keep the original meaning of that line. I guess they couldn't resist throwing a bit of Superman in there.

I would've preferred if the original line had been changed to something similar to what Goku had said to Beerus during their battle in Super.

"Don't you dare think that this is my limit!" or something along those lines could've been much better.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I thought that whole Bolded paragraph was just a Toei addition, if it is then it doesnt count towards canon Goku's personality.

[90sDBZ]

It always strikes me as odd how people seem to act like because the old Funimation dub often times made gave Goku some over the top "superhero" speeches, that they like to make him out to be some morally bankrupt sociopath who only fights bad guys for his own amusement. Goku may not be the ideal Superman-esque hero that Funimation sometimes makes him out to be, but he does have his principles, and he did sacrifice himself on two occasions for the sake of other people. He does have his selfish moments, but he isn't solely defined by his selfishness.

This. People who didn't like Funimation's original portrayal of Goku go to the opposite extreme and make him out to be on the verge of being a villain. Something that kinda bugged me was the Goku vs Superman rematch where Screw Attack commented on the changes to Goku's character in the old dub, and even went as far as to say that he was "more heartless" in the Japanese version. This completely disregards several things that indicate otherwise, such as him; reviving Upa's father, crying when Krillin dies, risking his life against King Piccolo to avenge his death, sacrificing his life to stop Raditz and again against Cell. And then there's his speech to beat Frieza for all the people he'd killed which was also in the Manga. And the fact that he never would have went Super Saiyan if he didn't care about others.

People also do the same with Gohan by making out he hated fighting to the point of never wanting to do it, rather than being indifferent to it. They don't like how dub fans viewed him as "badass" against Cell and Super Buu, so they exaggerate his disinterest of battle.

[VegettoEX]

I feel like there's a middle-ground here, and that it's the dub fans who are trying to paint US as trying to paint Goku as 100% complete opposite of what they know.

Like, we know that's not the case. I don't see many of us actually pushing that agenda. Don't misinterpret our pointing out contrary examples as somehow missing the forest for the trees.

[90sDBZ]

I feel like there's a middle-ground here, and that it's the dub fans who are trying to paint US as trying to paint Goku as 100% complete opposite of what they know.

Like, we know that's not the case. I don't see many of us actually pushing that agenda. Don't misinterpret our pointing out contrary examples as somehow missing the forest for the trees.

I don't think it's necessarily just fans who take this stance though. I've gotten the impression that even Toriyama himself has become overly consciousness of the changes Toei made over the years to the point were its actually had an impact on the way he writes the character nowadays. I've yet to watch Super so I can't speak for that, but going by the new movies alone I can see some differences. For example, Goku standing by and doing nothing as his friends and family nearly get killed by Beerus. And trying to let Frieza go again even though he's still a serious threat at this point, and having previously said to Trunks that he'd planned on finishing Frieza once and for all if he'd had the chance (and actually doing so in the alternate timeline).

[VegettoEX]

I think some (a lot?) of what's going on is that people are seeing, for example, us only just in 2015 translating a 1996 Toriyama interview where he makes the biggest point about Goku's character, and misinterpreting that as "new" or inadvertently giving it more timely relevance than it perhaps should get.

Toriyama has ALWAYS felt this way about Goku, and him continuing to write Goku as the Goku he always wrote Goku is... well, I don't know how else to explain that! So again, I think that's just more pushback and cognitive dissonance going on with the (forgive me for pigeon-holing you all!) Toonami generation because now they CAN'T AVOID the Goku that we've been discussing for years.