"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Grimlock]

That's my point, if Vegeta had enough power to reach the god levels on his own without the ritual, then he can use Ssj3 as well cause reaching the god levels would've required more power then Ssj3.

Let's say Vegeta's power was a 5 and in order to reach Ssj3 he needs to be a 7 and in order to reach SsjG he needed to be a 9 and in order to reach SsjB he needed to be a 12, if he's currently 12 then that means he can use what needed a 7 and 9.

How could he not have enough power to reach Ssj if he can reach SsjG ? that only applies to Saiyans who use the ritual.

I don't consider Dragon Ball Super's retelling of the movies, so to me, Vegeta attained Super Saiyan God off-screen, that's why he's able to transform into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

An that's the point, a Saiyan doesn't need to have some kind of enough power to achieve Super Saiyan God, one must be pure-heart, that's all that is needed. But no, if Vegeta is 12 (enough to transform into the latest form), it doesn't necessarily mean he has power to transform into a God, since it doesn't require power, one must pass through the ritual.

[sintzu]

Unless you think Goku jumped from being weaker than Namek Freeza to Super Saiyan God tier.

Vegeta couldn't even go Ssj3 and he went from that to being able to go SsjB on his own.

[ryou766]

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

How disrespectful.

[Sonicjamareiz]

Well this fight was meh except the SSGR part everything else was rushed just like episode 39. I'm okay with Toei's & Toriyama's decisions why can't we like both why does it has to be one of the other.

[Xeztin]

More as we get to it, I guess....

Goku does indeed use Super Saiyan God in the manga version. Goten calls it Super Saiyan Red, but Trunks corrects him for being dumb and tells him it's Super Saiyan God. So they seem to be making fun of themselves.

Goku has the ability to transform and make himself stronger than Hit, but his Time-Skip is troublesome. So he conserves energy throughout the battle by transforming to only the stage he needs at the time.

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

No SSGSS Kaio-ken.

This is where it get's confusing, Goku SSG stronger than Vegeta SSJB, but Goku's SSJB is stronger than both? Is it something to do with the ritual? in the anime I think it was stated in the RoF arc that acheving God Ki without help from others is stronger (SSJB), so that's where the manga and anime butt heads.

[Khin]

So in the manga SSB Vegeta is weaker than SSG Goku so I also prefer the anime because of this reason.

As a Vegeta fan, i agree. It looks like Toyataro just shitted on Vegeta here. I'd much prefer Goku surpassing him via a technique Vegeta doesn't have [Kaio-ken].

Unless you think Goku jumped from being weaker than Namek Freeza to Super Saiyan God tier.

Vegeta couldn't even go Ssj3 and he went from that to being able to go SsjB on his own.

We don't know if Vegeta achieved SSB via intense training in the movie. For all we know, he probably also used the ritual.

[sintzu]

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

What ? how ?

So in the manga SSB Vegeta is weaker than SSG Goku so I also prefer the anime because of this reason.

I take back what I said, they both don't make sense when it comes to power levels.

[ryou766]

OK... I'm going to have to with the anime this time for obvious reasons.

[namekiansaiyan]

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

How disrespectful.

Probably more proof that Toriyama dislikes Vegeta

[sintzu]

I'd much prefer Goku surpassing him via a technique Vegeta doesn't have [Kaio-ken].

Yeah the anime makes a lot more sense.

[ekrolo2]

If Vegeta didn't pull some major bullshit lately like the 10% comment and just skip the ritual outright, I'd probably feel bad about this development but fuck him. He's already inferior to Goku without the Majin Boost and its already been said by Whis in the F manga Goku trains better than him so it only stands to reason he'd remain a step behind Goku still.

[Xeztin]

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

What ? how ?

So in the manga SSB Vegeta is weaker than SSG Goku so I also prefer the anime because of this reason.

I take back what I said, they both don't make sense when it comes to power levels.

Yup we spoke to soon! Agh, if that's the case in the manga Vegeta will never catch up to Goku. The only way to make sense about it is to say it's because Vegeta doesn't have the SSG form I suppose. So wouldn't that imply that the SSJB form is multiplying SSG? If Vegeta has no SSG, there's nothing to multiply because it would seem SSG is acting as Goku's base to SSJB which would mean the two base theory is back. Normal Goku<SSJ and God Ki activated SSG<SSJB. I guess SSJB is multiplying Vegeta's regular base?

[pacz360]

Lol and people said the manga made sense to power levels in super ssjg goku>ssjb vegeta yeah...no the anime makes more sense than the manga anime version of ssjb goku didn't surpass him until he used kaioken x10

[sintzu]

Probably more proof that Toriyama dislikes Vegeta

He wouldn't be Super's 2nd main character if that was the case.

I think Toriyama's writing is very open so it might've been something like "After Vegeta was defeated it was Goku's turn and due to him figuring out Hit's technique and being stronger than Vegeta, he was able to put up a better fight but after awhile he knew it was pointless so he gave up"

[LightBing]

More as we get to it, I guess....

Goku does indeed use Super Saiyan God in the manga version. Goten calls it Super Saiyan Red, but Trunks corrects him for being dumb and tells him it's Super Saiyan God. So they seem to be making fun of themselves.

Goku has the ability to transform and make himself stronger than Hit, but his Time-Skip is troublesome. So he conserves energy throughout the battle by transforming to only the stage he needs at the time.

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

No SSGSS Kaio-ken.

Thank you for this. Much appreciated.

Why are you guys flipping over Goku being stronger than Vegeta and discrediting the manga just because of this? It's not like the manga set up rules about the transformation which makes it impossible for SSJG to be stronger than any version of SSJB.

Vegeta's my favorite character but I don't see how this is Toyotarõ "shitting" over him, remember the Cell Games or the Boo Arc? Maybe Goku having SSJG is exclusive to him which gives him insight that allows him to be stronger than Vegeta. There's so many possibility's besides: "the author is discrediting the character, this is dumb and everything that precedes it is now also dumb".

[Araki]

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

How disrespectful.

Probably more proof that Toriyama dislikes Vegeta

This whole mess of Goku using SSG casually like that (why? how? it was clearly an one-off thing and he made its power his own already) AND that being stronger than SS Blue Vegeta makes no sense whatsoever. Pure BS.

But, at least on this one, don't put the blame on Toriyama, that would be both in the manga and the anime if it was his idea. An obvious example of Toyotarou doing his own thing.

[ekrolo2]

Lol and people said the manga made sense to power levels in super ssjg goku>ssjb vegeta yeah...no the anime makes more sense than the manga anime version of ssjb goku didn't surpass him until he used kaioken x10

In the manga of F, Whis blatantly tells Vegeta his training is less efficient than Goku's and he's inferior to him still even in F. Contradictions only exist if you forget facts from the manga and try to force movie & TV details into a version of Super that's different from both of those.

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

What ? how ?

So in the manga SSB Vegeta is weaker than SSG Goku so I also prefer the anime because of this reason.

I take back what I said, they both don't make sense when it comes to power levels.

Yup we spoke to soon! Agh, if that's the case in the manga Vegeta will never catch up to Goku. The only way to make sense about it is to say it's because Vegeta doesn't have the SSG form I suppose. So wouldn't that imply that the SSJB form is multiplying SSG? If Vegeta has no SSG, there's nothing to multiply because it would seem SSG is acting as Goku's base to SSJB which would mean the two base theory is back. Normal Goku<SSJ and God Ki activated SSG<SSJB. I guess SSJB is multiplying Vegeta's regular base?

There might be something to what you're saying. When Goku rushes Whis, you see SSG appear behind him implying that his base form has at least some of SSGs power inside it. Nothing of the sort happens with Vegeta.

[sintzu]

The only way to make sense about it is to say it's because Vegeta doesn't have the SSG form I suppose.

But he would've had it in RF and they were pretty much equal so did he lose it after BOG and got it back before the tournament ?

I'm OK with him surpassing Vegeta but I want it to make sense, the anime went with Kaioken so that makes sense but then we find out that Beerus is still stronger so it doesn't make sense in another way.

[Khin]

I wouldn't blame Toriyama for this Vegeta issue. It is highly likely that both Toyotaro and TOEI did their own thing. It's just that the anime played out the Goku surpassing Vegeta thing way better than the manga.

I apologize for my tone earlier. I guess my inner Vegeta fanboy exploded at that time.

[HeroR]

It seems overall outside of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta getting destroyed by Hit and Goku fighting Hit in his base until he finds a weakness to Hit's time-skip, Toriyama's notes weren't all that specific about how this fight should go. Having Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta seems a little odd to me and makes me wonder what the power boast of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is.

For the anime, it makes sense that it chose not to go in that direction since the anime heavily stresses that Goku and Vegeta are all but equals with Goku having a very slight edge. Goku getting ahead because of a technique he learned is more meaningful, at least to me, than him simply having access to more transformations.