"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ryou766]

Have you guys ever seen how Vegeta was treated in Toyotaro's DBAF doujinshi? This doesn't surprise me.

[ekrolo2]

The only way to make sense about it is to say it's because Vegeta doesn't have the SSG form I suppose.

But he would've had it in RF and they were pretty much equal so did he lose it after BOG and got it back before the tournament ?

I'm OK with him surpassing Vegeta but I want it to make sense, the anime went with Kaioken so that makes sense but then we find out that Beerus is still stronger so it doesn't make sense in another way.

In the F manga, Vegeta's still stated to be inferior to Goku and has less efficient training methods than him. The manga of Super never says anything on how Vegeta gets Blue but we do know Vegeta's weaker than Goku anyhow without the Majin Boost.

[pacz360]

More as we get to it, I guess....

Goku does indeed use Super Saiyan God in the manga version. Goten calls it Super Saiyan Red, but Trunks corrects him for being dumb and tells him it's Super Saiyan God. So they seem to be making fun of themselves.

Goku has the ability to transform and make himself stronger than Hit, but his Time-Skip is troublesome. So he conserves energy throughout the battle by transforming to only the stage he needs at the time.

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

No SSGSS Kaio-ken.

Thank you for this. Much appreciated.

Why are you guys flipping over Goku being stronger than Vegeta and discrediting the manga just because of this? It's not like the manga set up rules about the transformation which makes it impossible for SSJG to be stronger than any version of SSJB.

Vegeta's my favorite character but I don't see how this is Toyotarõ "shitting" over him, remember the Cell Games or the Boo Arc? Maybe Goku having SSJG is exclusive to him which gives him insight that allows him to be stronger than Vegeta. There's so many possibility's besides: "the author is discrediting the character, this is dumb and everything that precedes it is now also dumb".

I think it's due to the fact that in the anime there more or less equals in ssjb only while in the manga goku stronger than him in red and blue while goku completely surpassed him with kkx10 in the anime.

[Xeztin]

I'm not discrediting the manga, but the only way I can make sense of it is by using that good old two base theory again. It's almost like SSJB is using SSG as a base and multiplying it like normal SSJ would a normal base, which would explain why Goku's SSG is stronger than Vegeta's SSJB because Vegeta didn't do the ritual and doesn't have SSG. What his SSJB would be multiplying? I have no idea unless it's his own base as a substitute. Either way you look at it, it seem's Vegeta being weaker is due to him not having SSG or not having done the ritual.

[sintzu]

Remember the Cell Games or the Boo Arc?

Maybe Goku having SSJG is exclusive to him which gives him insight that allows him to be stronger than Vegeta.

Goku had trained in the after life for 7 years and had Ssj3 while during the Cell games he trained with Gohan and trained his Ssj to its fullest unlike Vegeta who trained alone.

The problem people have with this is them not telling us why he's stronger, if Vegeta said something like "I should've done the ritual" or if Whis said "he must be stronger due to the power he gained from his friends while he was doing the ritual" then no one would have a problem with it.

But as of now it's Goku as Ssjr is stronger then Vegeta as Ssjb just because.

[HeroR]

This whole mess of Goku using SSG casually like that (why? how? it was clearly an one-off thing and he made its power his own already) AND that being stronger than SS Blue Vegeta makes no sense whatsoever. Pure BS.

But, at least on this one, don't put the blame on Toriyama, that would be both in the manga and the anime if it was his idea. An obvious example of Toyotarou doing his own thing.

Reading your post reminded me of something. Didn't Toriyama said in an interview that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorb its power and he will work on improving his base and Super Saiyan forms for now on instead of increasing his transformations. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically just god ki merged with a normal Super Saiyan, it fits with Toriayma's words. So, Goku shouldn't need Super Saiyan God according to Toriyama, yet the manga made it stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta.

Either Toriyama changed his mind, or Toyotaro missed that detail.

[Xeztin]

The only way to make sense about it is to say it's because Vegeta doesn't have the SSG form I suppose.

But he would've had it in RF and they were pretty much equal so did he lose it after BOG and got it back before the tournament ?

I'm OK with him surpassing Vegeta but I want it to make sense, the anime went with Kaioken so that makes sense but then we find out that Beerus is still stronger so it doesn't make sense in another way.

In the F manga, Vegeta's still stated to be inferior to Goku and has less efficient training methods than him. The manga of Super never says anything on how Vegeta gets Blue but we do know Vegeta's weaker than Goku anyhow without the Majin Boost.

This is pretty much how I was thinking, Vegeta trained with Whis to obtain SSJB and skipped SSG, Goku got SSG then SSJB which means Vegeta's way of training is less efficient than Goku's and that he is weaker.

[sintzu]

Vegeta's weaker than Goku anyhow without the Majin Boost.

I don't think he lost it cause it had nothing to do with him falling under Babidi's control, it was a separate thing that drew out his hidden powers.

[namekiansaiyan]

Probably more proof that Toriyama dislikes Vegeta

He wouldn't be Super's 2nd main character if that was the case.

I think Toriyama's writing is very open so it might've been something like "After Vegeta was defeated it was Goku's turn and due to him figuring out Hit's technique and being stronger than Vegeta, he was able to put up a better fight but after awhile he knew it was pointless so he gave up"

His writing is definitely open but Toriyama approved this which contradicts the Golden Frieza arc/movie as according to this Goku in SSB should 1 shot Golden Frieza.
He can still dislike him even though he is the 2nd main character.

[LightBing]

The only way to make sense about it is to say it's because Vegeta doesn't have the SSG form I suppose.

But he would've had it in RF and they were pretty much equal so did he lose it after BOG and got it back before the tournament ?

I'm OK with him surpassing Vegeta but I want it to make sense, the anime went with Kaioken so that makes sense but then we find out that Beerus is still stronger so it doesn't make sense in another way.

In the F manga, Vegeta's still stated to be inferior to Goku and has less efficient training methods than him. The manga of Super never says anything on how Vegeta gets Blue but we do know Vegeta's weaker than Goku anyhow without the Majin Boost.

Super manga does say this: "The narrator explains that a little while before these events, Freeza had returned to terrorize Earth. However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, the two Saiyans received training under Whis and managed to evolve into “Super Saiyan Blue”, a form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. With this, they were able to defeat Freeza!" (Source Kanzenshuu)

So either Goku simply got stronger than Vegeta and therefore his God is now better than Vegeta's Blue. Or this is a partially contradiction, that can easily be corrected. I mean, Blue might simply have surpassed the God we saw before, this SSJG after three years of training progressed past even the previous Blue level.

[FTW395]

Are you guys absolutely sure this is SSG and not just a shitty drawing of the Kaio Ken Goku?

[Sodhi]

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

No SSGSS Kaio-ken.

RIP vegeta fans.

[Khin]

Are you guys absolutely sure this is SSG and not just a shitty drawing of the Kaio Ken Goku?

TheDevilsCorpse confirmed that it is indeed Super Saiyan God.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I wouldn't blame Toriyama for this Vegeta issue. It is highly likely that both Toyotaro and TOEI did their own thing. It's just that the anime played out the Goku surpassing Vegeta thing way better than the manga.

I apologize for my tone earlier. I guess my inner Vegeta fanboy exploded at that time.

The anime played out this whole thing better than the Manga which is a first considering I preferred everything the Manga did up until point.

[sintzu]

Are you guys absolutely sure this is SSG and not just a shitty drawing of the Kaio Ken Goku?

Goten called it Ssj red while Trunks told his it's called Ssjg.

[Xeztin]

The anime is trying to make Goku and Vegeta equals, while the manga is trying to show Vegeta as being weaker.

In the anime it was stated that obtaining God ki on your own is stronger (SSJB) while having help (SSG) is weaker.

In the manga it's more or less saying with help your stronger (SSG) and trying to do everything yourself is weaker. This isn't exactly referring to SSJB but if Vegeta didn't do the ritual because of his selfish ways of refusing help and skipped SSG, it'd explain why he's weaker.

[ekrolo2]

Super manga does say this: "The narrator explains that a little while before these events, Freeza had returned to terrorize Earth. However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, the two Saiyans received training under Whis and managed to evolve into “Super Saiyan Blue”, a form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. With this, they were able to defeat Freeza!" (Source Kanzenshuu)

So either Goku simply got stronger than Vegeta and therefore his God is now better than Vegeta's Blue. Or this is a partially contradiction, that can easily be corrected. I mean, Blue might simply have surpassed the God we saw before, this SSJG after three years of training progressed past even the previous Blue level.

Its not really anymore of a contradiction than to say Super Saiyan 2 is a form that surpasses Super Saiyan 1!

Blue can still give you a bigger boost than Red, but if you're base form is inferior to another fighters who has access to Blue, he's naturally going to be stronger due to his stronger base level. That's why I don't think this really contradicts anything, especially since Whis, as I stated before, blatantly tells Vegeta he's a step behind Goku and trains less efficiently than him.

[LightBing]

Remember the Cell Games or the Boo Arc?

Maybe Goku having SSJG is exclusive to him which gives him insight that allows him to be stronger than Vegeta.

Goku had trained in the after life for 7 years and had Ssj3 while during the Cell games he trained with Gohan and trained his Ssj to its fullest unlike Vegeta who trained alone.

The problem people have with this is them not telling us why he's stronger, if Vegeta said something like "I should've done the ritual" or if Whis said "he must be stronger due to the power he gained from his friends while he was doing the ritual" then no one would have a problem with it.

But as of now it's Goku as Ssjr is stronger then Vegeta as Ssjb just because.

Maybe the chapter offers more clarification. But if it doesn't, I agree it's annoying and they should provide one.

[sintzu]

RIP Vegeta fans.

I'm not going anywhere...yet.

[ryou766]

For some reason this brought me back to that old rumor which Toriyama supposedly said that "red is stronger than blue." lol