Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

Some dates for everyone:

- Future Mai tells Future Trunks to go 17 years back in the past.
- Present day in the regular timeline is 779 or 780, so it'd mean that Trunks' age while Black is around is 796 or 797.

- Future Cell is killed in 788, so eight or nine years have, presumably, passed since then.
- Future Trunks is, therefore, currently about 30 or 29 years old.

If we are to acknowledge that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks < Base Goku and Future SS Trunks > Base Goku > SS3 Gotenks, Trunks would have become massively stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku with about the same time of training Goku had in the afterlife and, again presumably, without unlocking Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

[Bullza]

Funnily enough what we see in the NEP fits perfectly with what we found out in today's latest manga chapter.

Neither Base or Super Saiyan are as strong as Super Saiyan God and they are seemingly just at regular levels. So Super Saiyan Trunks giving Super Saiyan Goku "trouble" is perfectly acceptable under that continuity.

It'd make sense if this scene happened in the manga but it won't if it happens in the anime.

[LowRyder2005]

Tell you what, Bullza: personally, at this point, I'm just gonna go for the "Base" and "Beyond God Base" being inherently different approach for the anime and "Goku and Vegeta are just appreciably stronger than what they were in the DB manga" for Super's manga.
Unless there are some peculiar circumstances forcing Goku to turn SS (or making him want to) in the next episodes, or it's somehow confirmed that Trunks is suddenly... dunno, Base Vegito/ Super Vegito tier through a direct and clear statement (namely a "oh, my god, he is almost as strong as a Super Saiyan God!" thrown during the fight), I don't really believe I'm gonna buy anything else.

Still, I can't help but feel I'm juxtaposing something not really meant to be there for the sake of overcoming this arguably inconsistent writing.

[HeroR]

Funnily enough what we see in the NEP fits perfectly with what we found out in today's latest manga chapter.

Neither Base or Super Saiyan are as strong as Super Saiyan God and they are seemingly just at regular levels. So Super Saiyan Trunks giving Super Saiyan Goku "trouble" is perfectly acceptable under that continuity.

It'd make sense if this scene happened in the manga but it won't if it happens in the anime.

It really wouldn't because Goku in his base fought Freeza's true form evenly and was even stronger, while Super Saiyan Gohan got holes shoot through him by first form Freeza in his easy chair. Also, you shouldn't trust previews, or should I remind you how the previews were cut to make it look like Goku went Super Saiyan against Botoma.

[TheMikado]

^ that could have been SSG form of Goku which the manga didn't show.

[dbzfan7]

We have Trunks and Goku opposing each other as SSJ's, and Goku clearly catching SSJ Trunks fists.

[JoeCapricorn]

So among all the endless speculation posts about Black's power level, what if he is even stronger than Whis?

Beerus and Whis are beyond neutral at this point. I wouldn't doubt if there was actual trouble they would step in to defend our heroes. It would shock me, actually, if Black was able to kill Goku and destroy Earth and Beerus and Whis just stood by shrugging their shoulders and lamenting merely on the lack of delicious food they would get from Earth.

From the few episodes we've seen with Black we know he has some extraordinary capabilities. For one, the strange purple glow when he tries to sense where Trunks went - I think that ability transcends space and time, which would explain how he is able to follow Future Trunks. The ring he has seems to tear a rip in space-time. His black aura when he powers up toward the end of this Episode is kind of unsettling. I have no doubt we are looking at a villain unlike any seen before in Dragon Ball.

Maybe at first he isn't that strong - maybe he gets his ass handed to him, but then uses the ring to escape... then reappears moments later after attaining a massive power up. Or maybe he was really suppressing his power, prolonging the torment for Trunks (since he would be the only Saiyan left), instead of outright killing him. He had no idea Trunks had a time machine, so letting him live was of no consequence.

Either way, I think Beerus and Whis are going to be taken out of the picture. I'm not sure how, but I bet we find out within the next two or three episodes.

Then there is the unknown factor - the wildcard Zamasu... he's green and cute. That's all we know. He looks like a Kaioshin. Whether he is good or bad is unknown. Something bad happens to him - the opening shows him falling, over top of what looks like him staring out of a window. I'm wondering where his power level might be. At this point I have no idea.

[RandomGuy96]

I see there's a lot of pages since I've been gone. Can someone please quickly summarize what happened in the manga for me?

Some dates for everyone:

- Future Mai tells Future Trunks to go 17 years back in the past.
- Present day in the regular timeline is 779 or 780, so it'd mean that Trunks' age while Black is around is 796 or 797.

- Future Cell is killed in 788, so eight or nine years have, presumably, passed since then.
- Future Trunks is, therefore, currently about 30 or 29 years old.

If we are to acknowledge that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks < Base Goku and Future SS Trunks > Base Goku > SS3 Gotenks, Trunks would have become massively stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku with about the same time of training Goku had in the afterlife and, again presumably, without unlocking Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

LOL WUT. What'd I miss?

That's also clearly not a literal statement of strength. It's a reference to the "Saiyan Who Has Surpassed God" label for his post-god base. We know for a fact that that THAT form was still weaker than SSG.

The "Saiyan beyond God" form from Dragon Ball Heroes is base Goku from FnF movie, who is indeed at SSG level. In BoG, it was stated that Goku got insignificantly weaker after he went from SSG to base, FnF had no mention of Goku getting any weaker than before, and the FnF manga shows that base Goku is at SSG level. According to DBH, he has become even stronger than SSG by the time FnF starts, which would be reasonable since base Goku was slightly weaker than SSG in BoG, while he has trained with Whis for a year in FnF.

Irrelevant. The point is the form ITSELF isn't stronger than SSG, in fact it is inherently weaker.

No, SSB is repeatedly said to be a form that surpasses SSG.

Incorrect. It is said once to "surpass" SSG, in the same breath that the narrator says it "surpasses" the powered up Freeza, which it clearly doesn't in terms of raw power. Meanwhile it is stated to be equal in power to SSG more than once.

Before Vegeta smilled & tanked Cabba's punch, he was fighting at a level close to him, since he had some trouble with him when they were fighting in the same form, which shows that Vegeta's SS form works like Cabba's.

Again... this is logical, but is there any ironclad proof that he didn't, say, just go from an arbitrary percentage of his base to an arbitrary percentage of his SS? All this really establishes for a fact is base Vegeta >>>> base Cabba. If SS Vegeta can also god-stomp SS Cabba, then that could just be because base Vegeta is so much stronger than base Cabba that he can trounce him even with a minor boost (in fact, it is even possible, albeit not extremely likely, that base Vegeta > SS Cabba).

Like I said, just because he wanted to kill Gotenks doesn't mean that he wasn't holding back, he was already fighting at a level that Gotenks stood absolutely no chance. Freeza did exactly the same thing back on Namek.

Freeza wanted to torture everyone before they died. That was the whole point. Copy Vegeta just wanted Gotenks dead, while the real Vegeta encouraged him to fight and buy them some time.

We literally see Copy-Vegeta powering-up against Goku. I can't understand why you over-complicate things.

I'm doing the opposite of overcomplicating things. His power was never said to change (flaring your aura doesn't make you stronger, especially in the anime), Goku fought him evenly both before and after even though his power was also never said to change, it doesn't really make any sense for their powers to change and for them to be mysteriously suppressed to the exact same arbitrary percentage, therefore his power didn't change.

[dbzfan7]

I see there's a lot of pages since I've been gone. Can someone please quickly summarize what happened in the manga for me?

-Goku does not use Kaio-Ken at all in the manga
-Goku uses SSJ God once more
-SSJ Blue is heavily draining. So much so that transforming twice and fighting a bit left Vegeta at 1/10th of his full power
-SSJ God Goku is stronger than 1/10th SSJ Blue Vegeta
-Goku and Vegeta could beat Hit, not counting if he used his killing moves. Discounting that, Goku says he or Vegeta could have won if they conserved their energy.
-Goku goes base->SSJ->SSJ God->SSJ Blue during his fight with Hit
-Hits Time Skip is only effective against those weaker than him. The more powerful you are than him, the less time his Time Skip will have an effect on his opponent.
-Hit actually powers up in the manga for real once Goku goes SSJ God, and says he can only remain that way for a minute, as well as only able to use of one more Time Skip in this state.
-Hit's Time Skip remains at 0.1 seconds in the manga.

I think that's everything.

[Vados_chan]

Why cares if Trunks can fight with Goku? is that really that much of a issue?

[LowRyder2005]

I'll elaborate upon some points of what dbzfan7 already pointed out:

In the manga: Goku vs. Hit is entirely different.

1. We're told that if you use Super Saiyan Blue, drop out of the form and then turn Super Saiyan Blue again you incur in a massive drop of ki.
2. Vegeta was established to be at 10% of his SSB power against Hit, and that's why he was defeated effortlessly.
2a. When asked by Goku on why he wasted his SSB (since Vegeta might have been able to defeat Hit at full power), Vegeta states that he wanted to motivate Cabbe and thought that it was the only proper way to do it.

--- Goku vs. Hit ---
3. Goku fights Hit in base, manages to get some good punches here and there through good fighting instincts.
4. Goku then turns Super Saiyan and fights Hit in Super Saiyan form, but it's apparently still not enough to faze him (Hit changes fighting stance, apparently he gets more serious). They're kind of even for a couple of pages, but it looks like Hit has the upper-hand; Goku comments that if he keeps going like this, Hit will outlast him.
5. Goku then turns Super Saiyan God (the red form) and fights Hit in the red form.
6. Hit is the one on the receiving end now; he powers up to his fullest.
7. They clash again, Goku suddenly turns Super Saiyan Blue (in-between panels), kicks Hit away, then launches a devastating Kamehameha (destroying the barrier, the energy wave gets all the way in outer space, by the way, kind of like the Final Flash back in DBZ); Hit barely dodges.
8. Goku then gives up the fight because he thought Hit was being obstructed by the rules, and the prospect of a half-assed fight doesn't interest him (Goku still thinks of Monaka as stronger than him, just like in the anime). Not 100% sure about this one, if anyone feels like correcting it, you're welcome.

In the anime: nothing much in this episode, Super Saiyan Trunks fights Goku-Black and although he lands one (or two?) good hits he's stomped, escapes with the Time Machine. However, we see in the next episode that Goku powers up to Super Saiyan to defend himself against a (supposedly) bloodlusted Super Saiyan Future Trunks who still thinks he's fighting Black.

[MasterVampire]

Realisticly this Black Goku should be around Perfect Cell level of strength.

Future Trunks cant beat Perfect Cell but can beat Semi Perfect Cell.

Black Goku beats Future Trunks with some effort.

Good Goku should be able to wreck him.

I swear to god if they have Black Gokus strength at like SSGOD level I'm going to start loosing my shit

[HeroR]

Realisticly this Black Goku should be around Perfect Cell level of strength.

Future Trunks cant beat Perfect Cell but can beat Semi Perfect Cell.

Black Goku beats Future Trunks with some effort.

Good Goku should be able to wreck him.

I swear to god if they have Black Gokus strength at like SSGOD level I'm going to start loosing my shit

Wouldn't much sense to have the primary villain weaker than the previous villains from three or four seasons ago. Also, if he can transform, Black Goku tanked Super Saiyan Trunks in his base form.

[LowRyder2005]

Realisticly this Black Goku should be around Perfect Cell level of strength.

Future Trunks cant beat Perfect Cell but can beat Semi Perfect Cell.

Black Goku beats Future Trunks with some effort.

Good Goku should be able to wreck him.

I swear to god if they have Black Gokus strength at like SSGOD level I'm going to start loosing my shit

Wouldn't much sense to have the primary villain weaker than the previous villains from three or four seasons ago. Also, if he can transform, Black Goku tanked Super Saiyan Trunks in his base form.

Actually, Black seems to feel the pain of Super Saiyan Trunks' first stomach punch (so we'd not be exactly on the level of Super Saiyan Cabbe vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta or Base Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks).

[HeroR]

Actually, Black seems to feel the pain of Super Saiyan Trunks' first stomach punch (so we'd not be exactly on the level of Super Saiyan Cabbe vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta or Base Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks).

Seems like he was laughing to me.

[LowRyder2005]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQpodjZgRfY

Go to 0.29; he definitely feels the punch. He seems relaxed immediately after though, but it looks like Trunks' attacks could hurt him if they connected.

Actually, couldn't Trunks be pulling a "My Bulma" here? He berates Black for killing Mai before attacking him.

[RandomGuy96]

I'll elaborate upon some points of what dbzfan7 already pointed out:

In the manga: Goku vs. Hit is entirely different.

1. We're told that if you use Super Saiyan Blue, drop out of the form and then turn Super Saiyan Blue again you incur in a massive drop of ki.
2. Vegeta was established to be at 10% of his SSB power against Hit, and that's why he was defeated effortlessly.
2a. When asked by Goku on why he wasted his SSB (since Vegeta might have been able to defeat Hit at full power), Vegeta states that he wanted to motivate Cabbe and thought that it was the only proper way to do it.

--- Goku vs. Hit ---
3. Goku fights Hit in base, manages to get some good punches here and there through good fighting instincts.
4. Goku then turns Super Saiyan and fights Hit in Super Saiyan form, but it's apparently still not enough to faze him (Hit changes fighting stance, apparently he gets more serious). They're kind of even for a couple of pages, but it looks like Hit has the upper-hand; Goku comments that if he keeps going like this, Hit will outlast him.
5. Goku then turns Super Saiyan God (the red form) and fights Hit in the red form.
6. Hit is the one on the receiving end now; he powers up to his fullest.
7. They clash again, Goku suddenly turns Super Saiyan Blue (in-between panels), kicks Hit away, then launches a devastating Kamehameha (destroying the barrier, the energy wave gets all the way in outer space, by the way, kind of like the Final Flash back in DBZ); Hit barely dodges.
8. Goku then gives up the fight because he thought Hit was being obstructed by the rules, and the prospect of a half-assed fight doesn't interest him (Goku still thinks of Monaka as stronger than him, just like in the anime). Not 100% sure about this one, if anyone feels like correcting it, you're welcome.

In the anime: nothing much in this episode, Super Saiyan Trunks fights Goku-Black and although he lands one (or two?) good hits he's stomped, escapes with the Time Machine. However, we see in the next episode that Goku powers up to Super Saiyan to defend himself against a (supposedly) bloodlusted Super Saiyan Future Trunks who still thinks he's fighting Black.

So everything is even more of a clusterfuck. Alright.

I'll wait 'til next week to see what's up with Trunks vs Goku.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQpodjZgRfY

Go to 0.29; he definitely feels the punch. He seems relaxed immediately after though, but it looks like Trunks' attacks could hurt him if they connected.

Actually, couldn't Trunks be pulling a "My Bulma" here? He berates Black for killing Mai before attacking him.

I've gotta agree with Hero, it does look like Black is laughing rather than being remotely hurt. On the other hand he does seem to have trouble putting down Trunks in the rest of the fight despite trying to kill him, plus he needs to defend himself from Trunks's blast. Oh and Trunks blocks some of his blows.

[LowRyder2005]

Okay, found out the problem. I had my audio turned off and he's indeed subtly laughing even at 0.29, but seriously, that's gotta be one of the most incredible facial expression/ laugh mismatches I've ever seen. Egads, if you turn the audio off he looks legitimately hurt.

Well... Still, he's not properly tanking as in "I'm basking in the sun while you shower me with your attacks"; it looks like he has to put some sort of defense, so Super Saiyan Trunks shouldn't be totally outclassed against (Base, I suppose) Black, whatever his (or their) possibly absurd power level(s) may be at this point.

[HeroR]

Okay, found out the problem. I had my audio turned off and he's indeed subtly laughing even at 0.29, but seriously, that's gotta be one of the most incredible facial expression/ laugh mismatches I've ever seen. Egads, if you turn the audio off he looks legitimately hurt.

Well... Still, he's not properly tanking as in "I'm basking in the sun while you shower me with your attacks"; it looks like he has to put some sort of defense, so Super Saiyan Trunks shouldn't be totally outclassed against (Base, I suppose) Black, whatever his (or their) possibly absurd power level(s) may be at this point.

Black kick Super Saiyan Trunks' butt, there is no two ways about it. He laughed when Trunks punched him. Yeah, he didn't stand there and do a completely no sell, but it's obvious that Trunks' attacks had no effect on him.

Also, Trunks blocking his attack means almost nothing since last week people claimed that Black was too weak to put down base form Trunks. It's obvious that Black is just screwing to Trunks.

[LowRyder2005]

Okay, found out the problem. I had my audio turned off and he's indeed subtly laughing even at 0.29, but seriously, that's gotta be one of the most incredible facial expression/ laugh mismatches I've ever seen. Egads, if you turn the audio off he looks legitimately hurt.

Well... Still, he's not properly tanking as in "I'm basking in the sun while you shower me with your attacks"; it looks like he has to put some sort of defense, so Super Saiyan Trunks shouldn't be totally outclassed against (Base, I suppose) Black, whatever his (or their) possibly absurd power level(s) may be at this point.

Black kick Super Saiyan Trunks' butt, there is no two ways about it. He laughed when Trunks punched him. Yeah, he didn't stand there and do a completely no sell, but it's obvious that Trunks' attacks had no effect on him.

Well, since I always interpret "tanking" as a jargon meaning "no-selling" in the first place I guess that's a terminology problem, then. But yeah, I think we more or less mean the same thing. Still, either Black was toying with Trunks or couldn't one shot him.

As for the edit... No, I don't think it's that obvious. We are being told that Black is hellbent on killing Trunks for some unspecified reason. Besides, now that I think about it, weren't you one of the people who thought that Copy-Vegeta was possibly holding back against Gotenks? Why would it be the exact opposite here when the situation is more or less the same (character A's intent is killing character B, who is trying to resist)?