"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[amuroray]

I much prefer the manga.

It seems waaaaaaaay more grounded. Characters powers arent ridiculous and seems more in line with what they should be.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I can't understand your problem with this. That's just how the form works.

I know that's how the form works. My problem with it is that it doesn't make an sense. Especially since Super Saiyan Blue is a form that exits primarily because it is a combination of Super Saiyan God and Full Power Super Saiyan, you know, the transformation that doesn't drain stamina.

If it was the same form as Super Saiyan Full Power, it would have golden hair. This is a different form.

[Xeztin]

I still find stupid that SSGSS is in fact a transformation that draws stamina, if we look back at RoF and that they trained f****** 3 years straight in RoSaT, this whole situation is pathetic at a laughable level.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should be the perfect transformation with no drawbacks, since it seems to be the pinnacle of a Saiyan power. There's actually no point at all to introduce this negative effect.

You keep complaining when you have gotten your facts wrong. Keeping the form active doesn't drain their stamina significantly, the problem comes when they transform more than once. This doesn't work like Super Saiyan 3 or Golden Freeza.

That makes no sense. How can maintaining the form drain less stamina that actually powering up into it? Are we supposed to believe that keeping the form active doesn't drain much ki?

My guess is when they were having their talk about not letting your Ki leak, or perfect Ki control this is what they meant. In my opinion it's not powering up into it that drains the energy, it's trying to shut the damned thing off. It could work like the curse mark in Naruto where it forcibly brings the power out but at the same time in a calm and steady outburst, stable enough for Kaio-Ken.

[Speedster]

Toyotaro on the other hand chose to explain the 10x difference between Goku and Vegeta by having Vegeta getting 10x weaker due to the transformation sapping his power. This though is a terrible decision storytelling wise, as it basically renters SSGSS as a crap transformation in terms of stamina and make people wonder how Goku and Vegeta were critical of Golden Freeza's stamina issues beforehand as if they had sorted out theirs.

I was completely on board with your post until this part. Why are people continuing to say this when it is clearly not the case? Golden Freeza (and Super Saiyan 3) uses up a lot of stamina passively while the form is active. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan uses up a lot of stamina if you drop and attempt to re-enter it, regardless of how long you maintained the form.

Why then Vegeta reverted to his normal state and then transformed again? Why he didn't just stay transformed while waiting for Hit if preforming the transformation again would be worse than that?

Anyhow the SSJGSS form has a very serious stamina issue (yeah perhaps mostly in the transformation process) but this is exactly what renders the transformation crappy. What other form so far made a character only able to use 1/10th of the form's full power? And my comparison with Freeza was not meant to be literally direct anyway. I criticised the obvious retconning in the storytelling which was attempted to be hidden by the specifics. In RoF the form was presented as superior to Golden Freeza's in terms of stamina and it was presented as if it didn't have any stamina issues itself. And now it is revealed that the form actually does have a severe stamina issue though probably not the exact same issue but still a stamina issue.

Okay, so is Vegeta stupid? Was he unaware that this would significantly drain his energy? No. Let's look at the circumstances for why Vegeta would accept such a decrease in power.

-He wanted to give Cabba something to strive for.

This doesn't explain why Vegeta didn't stay in SSJGSS while waiting for Hit. He chose to power down and then transform again.

-Vegeta had already defeated 3 fighters out of 5 and would be overall satisfied with his performance.

It is not Vegeta's character to settle for a defeat,

-The Universe 6 fighters up to that point were so weak that he might actually be able to win with 10% of his power.

He together with Goku both anticipated that Hit would be the strongest opponent to go against and in a different level from the other 4. They didn't even wait to fight the first 4 to notice this. They knew it from the get go.

-He actually likes Goku, knows that he's dying to fight, and wants to give him a chance.

If he just wanted to give his place/turn to Goku he would just step down and do so. He wouldn't choose to risk suffering a humiliating defeat and later appear jealous of Goku for doing better.

-Even if the combined efforts of he and Goku weren't enough to defeat Hit, their team still had Monaka who was supposedly stronger than both of them.

As if Vegeta is renown for being a team player...

Additionally, this limitation gives a practical reason for not using Super Saiyan Blue earlier in the tournament.

Which is a unconvincing and contrived storytelling.

[Araki]

I still find stupid that SSGSS is in fact a transformation that draws stamina, if we look back at RoF and that they trained f****** 3 years straight in RoSaT, this whole situation is pathetic at a laughable level.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should be the perfect transformation with no drawbacks, since it seems to be the pinnacle of a Saiyan power. There's actually no point at all to introduce this negative effect.

You keep complaining when you have gotten your facts wrong. Keeping the form active doesn't drain their stamina significantly, the problem comes when they transform more than once. This doesn't work like Super Saiyan 3 or Golden Freeza.

That makes no sense. How can maintaining the form drain less stamina that actually powering up into it? Are we supposed to believe that keeping the form active doesn't drain much ki?

By this logic, had Vegeta stayed as SSB the whole tournament - hell, the whole day - he would have no trouble, apparently.
But his doom was using it for 5 seconds and transforming back.

Trying to make sense out of it isn't helping..

[TheMikado]

The problem is that you had two nonsensical approaches to resolve a nonsensical storyboard plot line. The manga tried to resolve Vegeta being 10x weaker as a SSB by making the transformation drain terribly where the anime makes Goku ten times stronger with kKx10. The core problem goes back to the fact that you can't and shouldn't be a reason Vegeta is 10x weaker then Goku at this point especially with the previous arcs. It has to be the storyboard because the net effect is the same which really really really means that the writing and original story board is atrocious.

[dbzfan7]

It's really pick your poison. I find it more believable than Kaio-Ken times 10 SSJ Blue, even if I think the manga version isn't fully believable.

[TheMikado]

It's really pick your poison. I find it more believable than Kaio-Ken times 10 SSJ Blue, even if I think the manga version isn't fully believable.

And I'm opposite in this. We've known the rules for SSJ for 20 years so using SSJ with KK even and especially with God Ki should be a no no. by contrast God forms are completely new and the rules are still being written for them so if God forms drain more stamina considering they haven't been using them for very long I can expect that they wouldn't be able to achieve advanced techniques let alone mastering the transformation like FPSSJ.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

The fight choreography was so much better than ep 39. I am turning into a complete manga guy especially in Super's case cause of how terrible the majority of the anime has been.Power scaling in manga make more sense to me.

As much as i love Kaio Ken i am happy it doesn't exist in the manga. Toei will never learn got to sell them toys. Even with Kaio Ken Gokuu being weaker than Beers is the biggest bullshit the anime pulled out. I fucking hate it. The one thing i didn't like in this chapter was Hitto being a little bit underwhelming but overall solid chapter. Can't wait to see Toyotaro's work on the Trunks stuff.

- Travis

[batistabus]

Anyhow the SSJGSS form has a very serious stamina issue (yeah perhaps mostly in the transformation process) but this is exactly what renders the transformation crappy. What other form so far made a character only able to use 1/10th of the form's full power? And my comparison with Freeza was not meant to be literally direct anyway. I criticised the obvious retconning in the storytelling which was attempted to be hidden by the specifics. In RoF the form was presented as superior to Golden Freeza's in terms of stamina and it was presented as if it didn't have any stamina issues itself. And now it is revealed that the form actually does have a severe stamina issue though probably not the exact same issue but still a stamina issue.

We're talking about a transformation that literally gives you the power of a god. I think it's fair that there is 1 avoidable drawback.

This doesn't explain why Vegeta didn't stay in SSJGSS while waiting for Hit. He chose to power down and then transform again.

See the rest of my reasons.

It is not Vegeta's character to settle for a defeat,

He doesn't like losing generally, but none of these battles truly test his pride. He also has more victories than any other competitor in the tournament.

He together with Goku both anticipated that Hit would be the strongest opponent to go against and in a different level from the other 4. They didn't even wait to fight the first 4 to notice this. They knew it from the get go.

Except for the fact that had it not been for Hit's time-skip ability, or had he figured out how to counter it more quickly, Vegeta may have actually been powerful enough to beat him.

If he just wanted to give his place/turn to Goku he would just step down and do so. He wouldn't choose to risk suffering a humiliating defeat and later appear jealous of Goku for doing better.

If we're talking about Vegeta's personality, if he were to make a nice gesture towards Goku, I'd think it more likely that he would do it in a "tsundere" way such as this. I'm not at all saying that Vegeta threw the match, but he may have found some comfort in knowing that Goku would get to fight an interesting opponent.

As if Vegeta is renown for being a team player...

Throughout all of Super, Vegeta has been shown to care more about the bottom line than his selfish goals in the face of destruction from the gods.

Which is a unconvincing and contrived storytelling.

How?

[Cipher]

Huh. I rather like the manga's take on things.

It lays out a fairly different power scale than the anime. Hit is apparently weaker than either Super Saiyan Blue character, which is fine. And his time-skip simply can't restrain stronger characters very well which ... is fairly nonsensical, but consistent enough with Chaozu's paralysis-techniques not working against stronger opponents, or Ghourd remaining bottom-rung in Freeza's organization despite such a useful technique (maybe it works on opponents somewhat stronger than him, but not against someone wildly different like Ginyu or Freeza).

Vegeta knowingly risking the following fight to instill a greater change in Cabba is also a nice bit of development.

This essentially keeps Goku and Vegeta at an even level too, rather than allowing Goku one hail Mary technique that may give him an edge.

[TheMikado]

Huh. I rather like the manga's take on things.

It lays out a fairly different power scale than the anime. Hit is apparently weaker than either Super Saiyan Blue character, which is fine. And his time-skip simply can't restrain stronger characters very well which ... is fairly nonsensical, but consistent enough with Chaozu's paralysis-techniques not working against stronger opponents, or Ghourd remaining bottom-rung in Freeza's organization despite such a useful technique (maybe it works on opponents somewhat stronger than him, but not against someone wildly different like Ginyu or Freeza).

Vegeta knowingly risking the following fight to instill a greater change in Cabba is also a nice bit of development.

This essentially keeps Goku and Vegeta at an even level too, rather than allowing Goku one hail Mary technique that may give him an edge.

It probably doesn't work on faster enemies as the may be so fast the time skip still doesn't give hot enough time to react

[Nejishiki]

Huh. I rather like the manga's take on things.

It lays out a fairly different power scale than the anime. Hit is apparently weaker than either Super Saiyan Blue character, which is fine. And his time-skip simply can't restrain stronger characters very well which ... is fairly nonsensical, but consistent enough with Chaozu's paralysis-techniques not working against stronger opponents, or Ghourd remaining bottom-rung in Freeza's organization despite such a useful technique (maybe it works on opponents somewhat stronger than him, but not against someone wildly different like Ginyu or Freeza).

Vegeta knowingly risking the following fight to instill a greater change in Cabba is also a nice bit of development.

This essentially keeps Goku and Vegeta at an even level too, rather than allowing Goku one hail Mary technique that may give him an edge.

In a way, a superior battle power overcoming Hit's time powers is in the anime as well. Remember Kaioken x10 breaking into Hit's frozen time? I think it's a fair guess to say that's something Toriyama wrote given the consistency with that.

[Lord Beerus]

I can't understand your problem with this. That's just how the form works.

I know that's how the form works. My problem with it is that it doesn't make an sense. Especially since Super Saiyan Blue is a form that exits primarily because it is a combination of Super Saiyan God and Full Power Super Saiyan, you know, the transformation that doesn't drain stamina.

If it was the same form as Super Saiyan Full Power, it would have golden hair. This is a different form.

If this the case, then Goku is an absolute moron for disregarding a SSJ form he knows that doesn't drain stamina. A SSJ form he freaking created. Did he suddenly just forget about it? It's either that, or Toyataro screwed up big time.

That makes no sense. How can maintaining the form drain less stamina that actually powering up into it? Are we supposed to believe that keeping the form active doesn't drain much ki?

It's like an air conditioner or a computer, it can run for a long time but if you turn it off then on again without waiting a bit you could break it or at least cause damage to it.

I don't know anyone who is still using Windows 98 or air conditions from the 1980s.

[Pannaliciour]

Vegeta losing 90% of his power and Goku doesn't notice this? (He trained with him 3 years in the htc) Goku even asked Vegeta for a tip before fighting Hit.

[ekrolo2]

If this the case, then Goku is an absolute moron for disregarding a SSJ form he knows that doesn't drain stamina. A SSJ form he freaking created. Did he suddenly just forget about it? It's either that, or Toyataro screwed up big time.

I think its less of a case that Toyotaro forgot and Goku simply figuring he'd be wasting energy coming at him with SSJ. After all, Goku CAN get tired using even mastered SSJ with last ditch attacks. Attacks that would be useless in his SSJ state since he can't hit.... Hit anyway. So, to avoid wasting stamina on a no dice form, he upgrades.

[Chelentano]

Vegeta knowingly risking the following fight to instill a greater change in Cabba is also a nice bit of development.

That's a very interesting point, actually.

[dbs fanboy]

Now i honestly think that both versions are cool on their own, in the anime, Goku and Vegeta are at the same level but Goku's only stronger while using kaioken; however, that form wastes a lot of stamina and Goku wouldn't be able to control his ki after using it too much so it has consequences and that's great.
In the manga, Vegeta has even more character development than in the anime.


So both versions did it great protraying this fight, we don't need to fight over it.

[buutenks]

Well, now people can read to different versions of the same story ^^. Which is cool.

[MozillaVulpix]

Does anyone else think this is getting a bit too confusing? Goku and Vegeta now have basically 3 interchangeable forms, and each continuity is coming up with different strengths and limitations for them. This is a story made for children and even I have no idea what's going on anymore.