"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If this the case, then Goku is an absolute moron for disregarding a SSJ form he knows that doesn't drain stamina. A SSJ form he freaking created. Did he suddenly just forget about it? It's either that, or Toyataro screwed up big time.

What are you talking about?! He used Super Saiyan Full Power against Hit, but even though it didn't have any stamina issues, it was too weak for Hit, so he used Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan Blue.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Yeah I definitely prefer the anime version of the fight over the manga version. Hit is just way more menacing in the anime. Here in the manga, Goku pretty much fucked Hit up by turning Blue. When Goku turned Blue in the anime, he started off in the advantage but Hit started to catch up thanks to his improvement. Then Goku goes and whips out the Kaioken and that always gives me chills.

Goku going from Base > Super Saiyan > Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan Blue all in one fight was annoying. Pick a colour and stick with it damn it!

At least it was nice seeing Super Saiyan God again... Though I kinda liked the form being a one-time thing. Whatever.

[Dbzfan94]

Can someone fill me in? Did Zeno show up in this chapter? And apparently Arale did too?

[Noah]

I still find stupid that SSGSS is in fact a transformation that draws stamina, if we look back at RoF and that they trained f****** 3 years straight in RoSaT, this whole situation is pathetic at a laughable level.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should be the perfect transformation with no drawbacks, since it seems to be the pinnacle of a Saiyan power. There's actually no point at all to introduce this negative effect.

You keep complaining when you have gotten your facts wrong. Keeping the form active doesn't drain their stamina significantly, the problem comes when they transform more than once. This doesn't work like Super Saiyan 3 or Golden Freeza.

That makes no sense. How can maintaining the form drain less stamina that actually powering up into it? Are we supposed to believe that keeping the form active doesn't drain much ki?

See? It's even more stupid that I thought.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Your problem is that you don't like it. I don't like it either, but there is nothing contradictory here, unlike with what the anime did.

[ekrolo2]

Seems to me Toyotaro adopted KK Blue into regular Blue somewhat. That combo too is very taxing on the body and stamina yet the worst of its repercussions don't really happen until after you've powered down. Hell, Goku seems to actually be pretty fine with it before powering down, being able to keep KK going on as practically a transformation instead of using it exclusively for bursts like before.

[Saturnine]

Not to say anything, but Toyotaro has just established himself as even dumber than many Toei filler writers. He literally went full retard.

- losing 90% of your max power output just by transforming - extreme bullshit
- ssj blue suddenly being tough on stamina while previously it was shown to be anything but. it shouldn't be more straining than regular unmastered SSj at worst.
- ssj god being accessible at will except clearly being referred to as a one-off form previously. where does this even put saiyan beyond god? I guess Toyotaro chose to completely disregard RoF.

Yeah, fuck the manga from here on out. Toyotaro has completely decimated his credibility here.

[ekrolo2]

Not to say anything, but Toyotaro has just established himself as even dumber than many Toei filler writers. He literally went full retard.

- losing 90% of your max power output just by transforming - extreme bullshit
- ssj blue suddenly being tough on stamina while previously it was shown to be anything but. it shouldn't be more straining than regular unmastered SSj at worst.
- ssj god being accessible at will except clearly being referred to as a one-off form previously. where does this even put saiyan beyond god? I guess Toyotaro chose to completely disregard RoF.

Yeah, fuck the manga from here on out. Toyotaro has completely decimated his credibility here.

- Its lost by powering up then down then immediately powering back up. Basically what would happen to Goku if after using KK with Blue, he powered down then tried it all over again.
- Nothing of the sort was said about it in the manga, which is separate from from the movies and TV show.
- Nothing of the sort is said in well.... anything ever. Not even Battle of Gods the movie says Goku can't transform, it says he absorbed its power into himself but no version of BoG says Goku can't use SSJG. And before you say.. "B-Bu-But! Toriyama stated in an interview!" the guys flipped flopped on how their powers work already, he's not even consistent with himself.

[sintzu]

- ssj blue suddenly being tough on stamina while previously it was shown to be anything but. it shouldn't be more straining than regular unmastered SSj at worst.

- ssj god being accessible at will except clearly being referred to as a one-off form previously.

where does this even put saiyan beyond god?

It's only tough if they power down then up again, while in the form it doesn't have any issues.

Goku accessed it to stop Beerus' attack in the BOG movie.

It doesn't exist, it describes how strong their base is and was never meant as a separate form.

[Kishido]

Is there a transation for this mess of story telling.

I will wait until it before I decide to never read again this bollocks

[Saturnine]

SSj Blue was specifically designed to be a permanent and improved replacement for SSj God though, now wasn't it?

And SSj God itself was supposed to leave an imprint of power on the user, resulting in SBG.

Good thing the manga continuity is different and we can choose to stick to the anime for facts. Toyotaro has sure made all this super confusing. I don't think having the manga diverge from the anime so significantly on basic mechanics was such a good idea.

[TheMikado]

SSj Blue was specifically designed to be a permanent and improved replacement for SSj God though, now wasn't it?

And SSj God itself was supposed to leave an imprint of power on the user, resulting in SBG.

Good thing the manga continuity is different and we can choose to stick to the anime for facts. Toyotaro has sure made all this super confusing. I don't think having the manga diverge from the anime so significantly on basic mechanics was such a good idea.

I think the problem is the anime not the manga as the manga make much more sense in its own continuity. Super the anime.. Not so much.

[HeroR]

SSj Blue was specifically designed to be a permanent and improved replacement for SSj God though, now wasn't it?

And SSj God itself was supposed to leave an imprint of power on the user, resulting in SBG.

Good thing the manga continuity is different and we can choose to stick to the anime for facts. Toyotaro has sure made all this super confusing. I don't think having the manga diverge from the anime so significantly on basic mechanics was such a good idea.

It is funny how the anime and manga diverged on this topic. In the anime. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is treated as the ultimate form of Super Saiyan with great ki control and a calm mind, which is how Goku is able to combine one of his older techniques with it.

Here, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a power drain and is the worse Super Saiyan form since Ultra Super Saiyan and it's more practical to use Super Saiyan God if you have it. It also gimps Vegeta in a backhanded way since he doesn't appear to have Super Saiyan God and have to rely on the power draining Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

I think the problem is the anime not the manga as the manga make much more sense in its own continuity. Super the anime.. Not so much.

Have to disagree. The anime follows the movies and Toriyama's statements about Super Saiyan God, in which Goku doesn't need it anymore since he absorbed the power god godhood and he won't used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 anymore because they waste energy and he can become more powerful by just making his base and Super Saiyan forms more efficient. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in both the movie and Super's version of Resurrection 'F' presents it as a stable form of Super Saiyan God since it is Super Saiyan merged with god energy. Toriyama even described it as calm, which is why he chose the color blue. So the anime is more in line with Toriyama's statement.

The manga did its own thing and ignored Toriyama's own words.

[ekrolo2]

SSj Blue was specifically designed to be a permanent and improved replacement for SSj God though, now wasn't it?

And SSj God itself was supposed to leave an imprint of power on the user, resulting in SBG.

Good thing the manga continuity is different and we can choose to stick to the anime for facts. Toyotaro has sure made all this super confusing. I don't think having the manga diverge from the anime so significantly on basic mechanics was such a good idea.

Blue was never supposed to exist, Base and SSJ were going to be the only forms moving forward in the story. Nothing of Blue's constant (and self contradicted) virtues from the anime were ever really explored in the manga. All that's ever said is that Blue is stronger than Red God in the same way SSJ2 is stronger than SSJ1.

It does in all versions, including the Manga where Goku and Vegeta's base powers are higher than they were before. How much of an imprint it leaves varies from version to version. Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in anything but video games as a way to (pointlessly) differentiate Base Goku from.... stronger Base Goku...

Toyotaro's consistent with his own stuff, the only problems arise if you try to shoehorn details from one version into another. Like trying to use Goku's feats from the anime into Resurrection F the movie, it doesn't work.

[Grimlock]

In the anime. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is treated as the ultimate form of Super Saiyan with great ki control and a calm mind, which is how Goku is able to combine one of his older techniques with it.

Here, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a power drain and is the worse Super Saiyan form since Ultra Super Saiyan and it's more practical to use Super Saiyan God if you have it. It also gimps Vegeta in a backhanded way since he doesn't appear to have Super Saiyan God and have to rely on the power draining Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

The anime's idea is closer to what Toriyama said in the beginning when the new form came into existance and closer to all those merchandisings when the form would join Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse.

I'll stick with the anime, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the strongest form with no major drawbacks.

[LightBing]

Now that this thread calmed down and that the spamming, calling the author(s) retarded, overreacting, putting the anime and movies into this even if it isn't related stopped, for the most part; I'll make my contribution.

I'll start by the less good:
- Vegeta powering down from SSJB. This is clearly forced writing to weaken Vegeta, I think there's no other way to evaluate this moment.
- SSJG, unexplained. I have no problem that it's introduced back, it's not a contradiction in any way. I would just like some information, since it come out of nowhere.
- Chiaotzu losing his hat. Why aren't people talking about his!

Now the good:
- I much preferred Hit's characterization here, compared with the anime. A bit more of twist and turns and him actually powering up, instead of just evolving his technique but still being able to tank x10 Kaioken Goku attacks.
- A explanation to why Goku and Vegeta didn't just turned into SSJB to easily defeat their opponents. I see no problem with SSJB weakness, it's like a car or a PC starting it consumes much more energy than standing still and on.
- Hit being the only "God Tier" non-God character introduced. I'm happy they're maintaining that level as something impressive, which only a handful of beings obtained. No more power-creep insanity. That's the third arc including BoG that Goku still hasn't surpassed Beerus.

[TheMikado]

Have to disagree. The anime follows the movies and Toriyama's statements about Super Saiyan God, in which Goku doesn't need it anymore since he absorbed the power god godhood and he won't used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 anymore because they waste energy and he can become more powerful by just making his base and Super Saiyan forms more efficient. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in both the move and Super's version of Resurrection 'F' presents it as a stable form of Super Saiyan god since it is Super Saiyan merged with god energy. Toriyama even described it as calm, which is why he chose the color blue. So the anime is more in line with Toriyama's statement.

The manga did its own thing and ignored Toriyama's own words.

Wait what? If it was accurate to the movies then SSG would be 70% Beerus full power let alone SSB and SSBxKKx10. Narrative wise the differences mean quite a bit in terms of how strong and at what level Gokus at and what potential threats he and Vegeta could handle.

[HeroR]

Have to disagree. The anime follows the movies and Toriyama's statements about Super Saiyan God, in which Goku doesn't need it anymore since he absorbed the power god godhood and he won't used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 anymore because they waste energy and he can become more powerful by just making his base and Super Saiyan forms more efficient. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in both the move and Super's version of Resurrection 'F' presents it as a stable form of Super Saiyan god since it is Super Saiyan merged with god energy. Toriyama even described it as calm, which is why he chose the color blue. So the anime is more in line with Toriyama's statement.

The manga did its own thing and ignored Toriyama's own words.

Wait what? If it was accurate to the movies then SSG would be 70% Beerus full power let alone SSB and SSBxKKx10. Narrative wise the differences mean quite a bit in terms of how strong and at what level Gokus at and what potential threats he and Vegeta could handle.

Really, that is the only thing that does not line up with the movie, and it doesn't even exist in the anime. Beerus' upper limits are unknown in the Super anime and even using the 10% line, it was obviously more power than he needed to put down Vegeta since Vegeta didn't even hurt him unlike the move and got slapped out of Super Saiyan form. Even then, how big was the power up of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan if it's stronger than Super Saiyan God that pushes Beerus to use 70% of power and Goku's base is said to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

[Noah]

Your problem is that you don't like it. I don't like it either, but there is nothing contradictory here, unlike with what the anime did.

Our only problem with Kaioken is the 10x multiplier, if was a normal (2x) Kaioken, I think everybody would aprove, even with the 10x exaggeration of the anime I prefer over the manga.

[TheMikado]

Now that this thread calmed down and that the spamming, calling the author(s) retarded, overreacting, putting the anime and movies into this even if it isn't related stopped, for the most part; I'll make my contribution.

I'll start by the less good:
- Vegeta powering down from SSJB. This is clearly forced writing to weaken Vegeta, I think there's no other way to evaluate this moment.
- SSJG, unexplained. I have no problem that it's introduced back, it's not a contradiction in any way. I would just like some information, since it come out of nowhere.
- Chiaotzu losing his hat. Why aren't people talking about his!

Now the good:
- I much preferred Hit's characterization here, compared with the anime. A bit more of twist and turns and him actually powering up, instead of just evolving his technique but still being able to tank x10 Kaioken Goku attacks.
- A explanation to why Goku and Vegeta didn't just turned into SSJB to easily defeat their opponents. I see no problem with SSJB weakness, it's like a car or a PC starting it consumes much more energy than standing still and on.
- Hit being the only "God Tier" non-God character introduced. I'm happy they're maintaining that level as something impressive, which only a handful of beings obtained. No more power-creep insanity. That's the third arc including BoG that Goku still hasn't surpassed Beerus.

I totally agree with this. Anyway the important thing to remember is both scenarios made Goku's SSB 10 times more powerful than Vegeta but no plausible reason why. It's no coincidence and sounds like it's in the outline but that's a really crappy outline if it can't be bothered to explain what that is hence the artistic liberties taken.