Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kishido]

If this is true I would be OK... But so far there never has been an explanation like this.

We only see Base Vegeta go toe on toe with Base Cabba... The same Base "Copy" Vegeta who owned Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks with ease.

To make it more serious... The story telling of Super about power levels is just plain stupid.

It's a shame they won't explain it, but it is the only explanation for everything.

1. Why Base Goku could do so badly against Final Form Frost and do so well against Final Form Frieza who trained.
2. Why the same Piccolo did better against Final Form Frost
3. Why Buu was so hyped up for the tournament
4. Why Base Goku who is = Base Vegeta who owned SS3 Gotenks like nothing needs to turn SS to fight SS Mirai Trunks who can be finger-flicked by SS3 Gotenks
5. Why Base Goku did so well against 100% serious Beerus wearing a costume

And so on. Them not explaining it is bad writing, but it can be inferred with the evidence given to us. It's the only way to make sense of the power levels.

I agree... But that's why I said to get more serious... I can't stand this bad story telling in terms of power scaling... brings a lot of bullshit to talk about

[Sandubadear]

Super Saiyan Future Trunks > Super Saiyan Cabba > Future Trunks > Cabba > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks > Super Saiyan KID Trunks = Super Saiyan Mystic Gohan

No no, it's kind of backwards. Base kid Trunks is stronger than base Gotenks.

[TheMikado]

The general accepted canon is anything stated or written by the original author. It is when the author is decease or isn't active anymore that the rules of canon get iffy. In Dragon Ball case, the canon is anything Toriyama's wants. Meaning, the original manga is the ultimate canon, along with movies he wrote, and any new information he gives, even the retcons. Super is kind of iffy since they redid the movies, however, many of the key plot points remain the same in both versions so there is some wiggle room there.

Now, what is the canon of Super written by Toriyama. The only way to know is look at the similarities between the anime and the manga. If there are the same, chances are there are Toriyama's ideas. If they're different, outside influence are involved. Now, what do you consider the 'ultimate' canon for Super. In this case, it depends on you. I personally don't take the Super manga as canon since it's a promotional tool for the anime. So I tend to take the anime version of events over the manga. However, if someone whats to say the manga is their canon, they're more than welcome to it. However, don't spread the false narrative that one is 'officially' more canon than the other since Toriyama is personal overseeing it since Toriyama is overseeing both the anime and the manga, and both versions have his stamp of approval until stated otherwise.

That is literally how it works for any media. Even people who despises the Star Wars prequels see them as canon because they were written by the original creator. Dragon Ball isn't some special snowflake in this regard. So, yes. Any written or stated by Toriyama is the official canon. You can chose to ignore it, but that is how things usually work.

What about design? Because by your logic the New Star Wars and any superhero adaptation wouldn't be canon either.
Wait so anything that has Toriyama stamp of approval is canon now?

[MaGyunia]

It always struck me as odd as why Frost would pose such a threat to Goku or even Piccolo. Piccolo is far stronger than a normal Super Saiya-jin, and a normal Super Saiya-jin is stronger than Freeza/Frost in any of his/their forms, especially the very first one. Piccolo should be leagues above Frost regardless of which state the latter is in. DBSuper screwed it up big time on this one, by matching Piccolo's lack of protagonism to his apparent significant decrease in power. Frost only beat Goku and Piccolo because of his dirty trick.

[Chiki]

It always struck me as odd as why Frost would pose such a threat to Goku or even Piccolo. Piccolo is far stronger than a normal Super Saiya-jin, and a normal Super Saiya-jin is stronger than Freeza/Frost in any of his/their forms, especially the very first one. Piccolo should be leagues above Frost regardless of which state the latter is in. DBSuper screwed it up big time on this one, by matching Piccolo's lack of protagonism to his apparent significant decrease in power. Frost only beat Goku and Piccolo because of his dirty trick.

Frost is probably stronger than Namek Frieza because he got involved in fights a lot more in his universe. Nowhere even close to RoF Frieza but still up there.

[HeroR]

What about designed? Because by your logic the New Star Wars and any superhero adaptation wouldn't be canon either.
Wait so anything that has Toriyama stamp of approval is now canon?

Comics are a whole different beast since they are written by loads of writers with their own interpretations of characters, events, and retcons. So it's impossible to say who is the 'true' creator of what in comic. Even so, what is considered canon for comics is what the company who own the comic says it is. For example, if DC said Wonder Woman is faster than Superman in battle, then that is the canon. You may disagree, but that is the official word until stated otherwise. The New Star Wars movies are canon because Lucus sold his right as the original creator to Disney. So Disney decides what is canon now and they have. One of the first things they did was make all the EU books of Star Wars non-canon when before they were considered canon unless it went against something in the movies.

Also, comic is consider the canon for any comic book adaptation. So the Marvel movies are only considered canon to the movies, not the comics or any other media.

Mangas don't have that problem because they are written by one person. Toriyama is the sole author of Dragon Ball, even if the product itself is own by a huge company.

[TheMikado]

What about designed? Because by your logic the New Star Wars and any superhero adaptation wouldn't be canon either.
Wait so anything that has Toriyama stamp of approval is now canon?

Comics are a whole different beast since they are written by loads of writers with their own interpretations of characters, events, and retcons. So it's impossible to say who is the 'true' creator of what in comic. Even so, what is considered canon for comics is what the company who own the comic says it is. For example, if DC said Wonder Woman is faster than Superman in battle, then that is the canon. You may disagree, but that is the official word until stated otherwise. The New Star Wars movies are canon because Lucus sold his right as the original creator to Disney. So Disney decides what is canon now and they have. One of the first things they did was make all the EU books of Star Wars non-canon when before they were considered canon unless it went against something in the movies.

Also, comic is consider the canon for any comic book adaptation. So the Marvel movies are only considered canon to the movies, not the comics or any other media.

Mangas don't have that problem because they are written by one person. Toriyama is the sole author of Dragon Ball, even if the product itself is own by a huge company.

Right so how is Dragonball different from Star Wars? If Toriyama is selling the rights to his characters for the people using those rights to do whatever they please with them that means by the original owner and creator granting those rights that everything created under the name Dragonball is canon .

[HeroR]

What about designed? Because by your logic the New Star Wars and any superhero adaptation wouldn't be canon either.
Wait so anything that has Toriyama stamp of approval is now canon?

Comics are a whole different beast since they are written by loads of writers with their own interpretations of characters, events, and retcons. So it's impossible to say who is the 'true' creator of what in comic. Even so, what is considered canon for comics is what the company who own the comic says it is. For example, if DC said Wonder Woman is faster than Superman in battle, then that is the canon. You may disagree, but that is the official word until stated otherwise. The New Star Wars movies are canon because Lucus sold his right as the original creator to Disney. So Disney decides what is canon now and they have. One of the first things they did was make all the EU books of Star Wars non-canon when before they were considered canon unless it went against something in the movies.

Also, comic is consider the canon for any comic book adaptation. So the Marvel movies are only considered canon to the movies, not the comics or any other media.

Mangas don't have that problem because they are written by one person. Toriyama is the sole author of Dragon Ball, even if the product itself is own by a huge company.

Right so how is Dragonball different from Star Wars? If Toriyama is selling the rights to his characters for the people using those rights to do whatever they please with them that means by the original owner and creator granting those rights that everything created under the name Dragonball is canon .

But Toriyama never sold his rights. He still have some control of Dragon Ball as the original author. Lucus have none since he sold all his rights. Toriyama can give permission for others to use his property and is laid-back about how people chose to show his work, but if he says something that goes against the anime or the manga, then it is canon since he's the author. It is just like how JK Rowling give permission for people to use Harry Potter, but no one takes the movies as canon over the books.

[TheMikado]

Right so unless Toriyama specifically said something is NOT canon then it should all be considered canon. As far as I know the the Harry Potter movies are considered "canon" as they may not follow it exactly but don't drastically contridict and the books act as expounding on the the Harry Potter world.

[LightBing]

Manga Discussion
I'm confident I can make a fairly decent list, with the latest chapter.

Scale: 1 = Final Form Freeza Namek
From weaker to stronger:

Goku with full stomach - 1
Botamo - 1,5
First Form Frost - 6
Second Form Frost - 13
Piccolo - 13
Base Cabba - 15
Base Goku and Base Vegeta - 15
Injured Final Form Frost - 17
Magetta - 20 (His durability is insane, giving him the edge)
Mr.Boo - 30
Final Form Frost - 35
Hit (Suppressed) - 50
SSJ Goku and Vegeta - 60
10% SSJB Vegeta - 80
SSJG Goku - 600
Full Power Hit - 780(?)
SSJB Goku and Vegeta - 800
Champa - 2300
Beerus - 2400
Whis - 4000
Vados - 4500
Omni-King -

[ZombieVito]

Trunks' Ki being sensed all the way to Beerus' planet is.... odd. If Freeza weren't around I'd just chalk up the Gohan thing as Gohan's power being lowered from all the damage he'd taken and not as SSJ Trunks >>>> F SSJ Gohan as some people are. But then there's Freeza who Goku can't sense and oh fuck this! The animes bullshit.

I mean, the mangas got some bullshit too but the animes just awful with this stuff.

I remember someone theorizing that Freeza wasn't sensed because he wasn't flaring up his ki. This confirms it now.

[dbzfan7]

Trunks' Ki being sensed all the way to Beerus' planet is.... odd. If Freeza weren't around I'd just chalk up the Gohan thing as Gohan's power being lowered from all the damage he'd taken and not as SSJ Trunks >>>> F SSJ Gohan as some people are. But then there's Freeza who Goku can't sense and oh fuck this! The animes bullshit.

I mean, the mangas got some bullshit too but the animes just awful with this stuff.

I remember someone theorizing that Freeza wasn't sensed because he wasn't flaring up his ki. This confirms it now.

Which confuses me as if he wanted Goku, why didn't they just tell him to raise his ki? That way he gets Goku sooner, and everyone else has a better chance of survival.

[Bullza]

No, it doesn't look like that at all if you accept the two base theory. It's going to be confirmed next ep.

But there is no two base theory so that is how it looks.

[Chiki]

No, it doesn't look like that at all if you accept the two base theory. It's going to be confirmed next ep.

But there is no two base theory so that is how it looks.

I don't know how someone can be so irrationally stubborn LOL. Yes, there is a two base theory, it's not *your* theory. Plenty of other people came up with it before you or around the same time, like the people making Dragon Ball Heroes and me.

[dbzfan7]

Manga list

Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Full Power Hit
SSJG Goku
Hit
10% SSJB Vegeta
Magetta (Took no damage and pretty much only lost by faulty ring out)
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
True Frost
Base Goku/Vegeta
Assault form Frost
Boo
Tired Frost
Piccolo
First Form Frost
Botamo
-
-
-
-
What the hell is a Gohan

[DBZGTKOSDH]

At this point, shouldn't we make a new thread for the Super manga battle powers?

[Bullza]

I don't know how someone can be so irrationally stubborn LOL.

I'm not being stubborn. It's a fact that there is no two base theory.

Were 48 episodes into the show, 4 arcs into the show and there's never been any mention of them having two bases and there's never been any implication that there are two bases. Nothing.

The only two bases that exist are the one before he became a God and then the one after he became a God.

The one and only reason the two base theory is even brought up is to try and excuse what is possibly bad writing.

"Oh so Goku had to turn SSJ for Trunks but didn't for Gotenks, that must mean he has God Ki turned off!"

It's not a thing, not in the movies, not in the anime and not in the manga.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm mad the two Base theory is still a thing, lol. Does this actually have anything to do with the current saga that I'm unaware of?

[Chiki]

I don't know how someone can be so irrationally stubborn LOL.

I'm not being stubborn. It's a fact that there is no two base theory.

Were 48 episodes into the show, 4 arcs into the show and there's never been any mention of them having two bases and there's never been any implication that there are two bases. Nothing.

The only two bases that exist are the one before he became a God and then the one after he became a God.

The one and only reason the two base theory is even brought up is to try and excuse what is possibly bad writing.

"Oh so Goku had to turn SSJ for Trunks but didn't for Gotenks, that must mean he has God Ki turned off!"

It's not a thing, not in the movies, not in the anime and not in the manga.

Then what's your explanation for Base Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS3 Gotenks and SS Goku >= SS Trunks?

Let's hear it!

[supercat]

No, it doesn't look like that at all if you accept the two base theory. It's going to be confirmed next ep.

But there is no two base theory so that is how it looks.

I don't know how someone can be so irrationally stubborn LOL. Yes, there is a two base theory, it's not *your* theory. Plenty of other people came up with it before you or around the same time, like the people making Dragon Ball Heroes and me.

Seriously? You're calling another user stubborn despite your seemingly ignorant demeanor towards something that has yet to be proven?

And I love how you talk with such certainty that this so-called two base nonsense is still even a thing. Were you part of the production team?

On another note, I have no idea why people care so much about keeping power levels consistent. Maybe the writers don't care about said consistency because doing so would potentially restrict them from establishing the highest level of innovation? I mean, can you imagine how rigid and boring that would be if the characters were really tied down to a specific numbers?

Seriously, its not that big of a deal; things like two Super Saiyans tangling with one another doesn't surprise me one bit when you take into consideration that the series hasn't been very consistent with power levels thus far. It's not like Yamcha landed a hit on Frieza or something.